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conspirationist: *watching kyoani burn* well amagi brilliant park's writing really dropped the ball in the last third
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Jan 11, 2020 00:18
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Conspiratiorist posted:I'm not going to say anything callous but I wouldn't be exactly thrilled at Deen's FSN being what I'm remembered by. This made me sad. Elephant Parade posted:I'm not going to say anything callous, but [holds megaphone to mouth] THIS GUY SUCKED This made me chuckle. I know the Deen series may not be super well regarded now in hindsight, but before Zero and UBW it was all I had and frankly it was how I tripped and fell into my enjoyment of Type Moon in general. I absolutely made the hop from the FSN series to reading Tsukihime and Kagetsu Tohya. People criticize it now, but they definitely remember it. I hope that's how he thought of it in the years since. 
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Jan 11, 2020 08:01
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Did most of if not all the FSN cast of VAs started from the Deen anime and still do their roles today?
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Jan 11, 2020 08:57
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Yes. The same thing happened with the DEEN Seacats voice cast actually.
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Jan 11, 2020 09:27
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Yeah the DEEN anime wasn't great but it gave us the voice cast we know today, also GaoGaiGar FINAL was amazing.
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Jan 11, 2020 09:34
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Rody One Half posted:Yes. The same thing happened with the DEEN Seacats voice cast actually.
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Jan 11, 2020 17:27
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Ayako Kawasumi and Kana Ueda have been voicing Arthuria and Rin on and off for 14 years now.  Like I know that's relative "chump change" compared to, like, Masako Nozawa having voiced Goku on and off for almost 34 years or Kiyoshi Kobayashi voicing Jigen for 50 years with only one exception, but still! That's an assload of years.
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Jan 11, 2020 17:43
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We get some Rin dunking on Rin action in today's episode of FGO, and frankly I could listen to that all day.
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Jan 11, 2020 18:04
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Once again the cunning plan of useing Tsundere bait to deal with the problem worked.
Hunt11 fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Jan 11, 2020 |
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Jan 11, 2020 18:28
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so fiancee and i got to the banquet of kings in our F/Z watch-through yeah i don't really agree with the take that this scene is just making GBS threads on Artoria that's how she takes it but that's pretty blatantly not the takeaway the audience is supposed to have. the thing is, while they're all ancient, they're all from vastly different time periods and view rulership (and their relation to the world) vastly differently. in fact, they almost represent a sort of progression in the idea of what a "king" means, from someone who is merely at the top of the hierarchy and acts solely in their own interest, to someone who holds a sense of responsibility for the nation that they are king of. Gil is pretty obvious, and more or less directly says what his deal is: because he is king, that means everything is his, and the idea that something isn't his just means he has to beat whoever thinks it isn't into submission. however, having to actually assert his rulership and leave a mark on the world annoys the poo poo out of him, because he sees his ownership of everything of interest to him as something that just inherently comes from the title of "king." the idea of Artoria regretting anything about her reign as king is just frankly absurd to him, because to him, a king represents pure, unbridled greed and self-interest; the idea of a king having any goal beyond "get more shiny things" is something he can barely even comprehend. if you think the series is agreeing with Gil, you didn't pay attention to what he was saying, because no modern human in their right loving mind would think that's what a good leader looks like. Iskandar is a little more complicated. while he's not the same sort of purely self-interested king as Gil, the idea of feeling a sense of duty and personal devotion to the nation he commands is still pretty much foreign to him, and he finds it actively sad; after all, a nation should be loyal to their king, not vice-versa, in his eyes. this tracks with him essentially wanting to conquer for the sake of conquering, both to enjoy the act in and of itself and its spoils and to leave a mark on history. but as a result of this, unlike Gil, he's not really dunking on her or anything. he's just kind of bluntly, sadly telling her that feeling regrets about her reign is something that's weird and wrong to him. he comprehends it, he just thinks it's rear end-backwards and feels like poo poo hearing her feel so strongly about it. (and, I mean, to an extent he's right. she takes the wrong things from it initially, but a large part of what he tells her is... the same stuff she eventually groks in FSN that makes her feel a whole lot better about herself.) Artoria is different from both because she's not self-interested at all. being a king was a duty to her that actively restricted her for the sake of her nation, not something that gave her immense power and joy. her take on it isn't odd to the other two because the series thinks it's wrong; it's odd because she's just fundamentally not the same type of monarch as them, at all, and is in fact one of the earlier mythological examples of the more modern idea of a nation's leader; someone who takes immense duty onto themselves for the good and protection of the nation. naturally people who predate this idea either aren't going to get it at all, or find it kind of abhorrent; that doesn't mean the show made in 2011 in a franchise with a very major theme of "self-sacrifice is a valid and admirable choice" is telling you to agree with them, and in fact it's pretty reasonable to assume the polar opposite.
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Jan 12, 2020 04:04
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:that doesn't mean the show made in 2011 in a franchise with a very major theme of "self-sacrifice is a valid and admirable choice" is telling you to agree with them, and in fact it's pretty reasonable to assume the polar opposite. I'm not sure that's actually a theme of FZ. If anything, the idea it keeps coming back to is that self-sacrifice is actually a rather selfish thing to do.
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Jan 12, 2020 04:28
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fate stay night is literally all about how self-sacrifice is hosed up
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Jan 12, 2020 04:29
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Self-sacrifice is hosed up because it can gently caress everyone else up, see: Artoria's entire reign and Kerry being ready to give up Iri and Iri being ready to give herself up for Kerry
Compendium fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Jan 12, 2020 |
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Jan 12, 2020 06:05
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I really didn't like that the UBW anime ended with Shirou going off archering
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Jan 12, 2020 06:08
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Aurora posted:fate stay night is literally all about how self-sacrifice is hosed up Naruverse: Better Things Aren't Possible
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Jan 12, 2020 07:01
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Stairmaster posted:conspirationist: *watching kyoani burn* well amagi brilliant park's writing really dropped the ball in the last third I have a lot of respect for KyoAni and their accomplishments, and personally enjoyed Amagi Brilliant Park quite a lot. The fire was an enormous tragedy for the industry. And while I get the intent of the comment, and making it clear that the author's beliefs are his own and KyoAni is unrelated... in light of what happened last month with Gatoh, this wasn't the best example. Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Jan 12, 2020 |
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Jan 12, 2020 07:15
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I don't think you understand at all if that's what you're calling out in my post
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Jan 12, 2020 08:19
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Clarste posted:I'm not sure that's actually a theme of FZ. If anything, the idea it keeps coming back to is that self-sacrifice is actually a rather selfish thing to do. Aurora posted:fate stay night is literally all about how self-sacrifice is hosed up you don't have to tag F/Z stuff for me, i've already seen it once and while my fiancee hasn't and usually reads SA over my shoulder T-M discussion makes her eyes glaze over lmbo the thing is there's a big key difference between kerry and shirou and it massively informs how the narrative treats them. kerry isn't self-sacrificing, per se. he likes to think he is, because he's basically throwing his morality in the toilet, taking a big giant poo poo on it, and then flushing it in the name of being a ~~seigi no mikata~~, but kerry is kind of more other-people-sacrificing. he constantly uses people as pawns who not only don't really get a choice in the matter, but often actively don't want to be involved. that's why kerry is a bad person, why the narrative shits on him so hard, and what makes his "self-sacrifice" so selfish. this is like super explicitly the point of the grail convo; the grail's corrupted and evil, but it's also 100% right about him, and that's why the whole event basically fucks him sideways and makes him give up violence entirely and devote his entire remaining life to raising shirou. because he realizes he wasn't sacrificing himself at all: he was sacrificing shitloads of innocent people, the very same people he wanted to create his dream world for, instead. shirou, meanwhile, actively does not do that. shirou sacrifices himself for others. even in HF, where he supposedly throws his entire ideal out the window and stops trying to be a superhero, he's still being altruistic, he's just doing it for specifically sakura instead of Literally Everybody (and, given in one ending he literally dies for her and in the other he comes within an asshair of it, it's probably even the most literalized self-sacrifice in the VN). if other people are willing to help him out knowing what they're getting into, then sure, he's down, but he's not about using other people as pawns at all, and certainly not without their explicit consent in that. and this is pretty bluntly and explicitly portrayed as admirable. like, the central theme of FSN imo is exploring the idea of heroism and questioning what a true hero actually is, especially in the modern era, and to the extent that it has an answer, i think that's it: someone who knowingly and deliberately sacrifices themselves for others, without involving non-consenting bystanders. artoria is a lot closer to the latter end of this than the former, and... more or less the point of Fate is her realizing that, iirc (it's been a while and i'm not huge on that route so i'm not super inclined to do a deep reread). she's not a character you're supposed to dislike for doing what she did. she's a character you're supposed to think got a raw loving deal for being a good person; you end up feeling bad for her, but also admiring her. e: i wonder if part of why i read F/Z and FSN this way is because i was raised pretty catholic. 
WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Jan 12, 2020 |
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Jan 12, 2020 13:47
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on a lighter note I just finally saw the 2min trailer for spring song last night (didn't even know it existed somehow) initial impressions, now that this is actually kind of enough to react to: - holy loving poo poo Haru wa Yuku is hype as hell, like if this is just an end credits song and not an insert song I'll be a little bummed - the best Kirei moments from the Einzbern Castle rescue are all confirmed and his dialogue in the trailer seems to point at us getting his round 2 with Shirou, which makes me insanely happy - like a third of the trailer is from Nine Bullet Revolver and they're doing it 100% straight (Shirou struggling through the dust storm is a super prominent shot), which makes me even happier because that scene gives me loving chills every time
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Jan 13, 2020 23:23
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Calling Kerry not self-sacrificing when he has to kill the only things that ever brought light to his life, four separate times, is a bit  .I mean, there's issues wrt the overall writing of the story's themes and such but this particular reading doesn't quite track to me.
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Jan 15, 2020 14:38
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Kyte posted:Calling Kerry not self-sacrificing when he has to kill the only things that ever brought light to his life, four separate times, is a bit Those 'things' are people, though, and Kiritsugu sacrificing them hurts them more than him. Because they're the ones who die.
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Jan 15, 2020 14:45
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Darth Walrus posted:Those 'things' are people, though, and Kiritsugu sacrificing them hurts them more than him. Because they're the ones who die. Yeah, this is the big difference between Kiritsugu's and Shirou's brands of sacrifice. Kiritsugu is willing to sacrifice even those he loves, and no one can deny he's hurt by it, but at the end of day the ones he sacrifices are everyone around him, not himself. Contrast with Shirou, who is completely self-sacrificing but also would never dare sacrificing someone else's life for his ideals.
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Jan 15, 2020 14:51
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It's a very 00s gritty action hero way to sacrifice You can say that much
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Jan 15, 2020 14:52
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It's impossible for me to feel bad about Kiritsugu's manpain because he's such a dumb piece of poo poo
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Jan 16, 2020 10:11
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He is a dumb piece of poo poo but I still love him You can go ahead and just apply that to a lot of the characters in these things
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Jan 16, 2020 10:40
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literally every character in the entire nasuverse who actually self-sacrifices either gets brought back from the brink or literally turns into an awful monster. like, the logical extreme of self-sacrifice in this franchise is kiara, the lady who wants to unbirth the world and is constantly called an unfeeling monster. i have no idea how you'd get the read that self-sacrifice is a valid option. heck, even arturia's arc deals with that. camelot fell because self-sacrifice not only makes yourself miserable, it makes everyone around you miserable. in fact i would say that 'self-sacrifice is awful' is possibly the single most repeated theme throughout this franchise that recurs in almost every single character. a lot of the more evil characters have their selfishness as a redeeming quality, not their most evil trait. medea's selfish desire for a happy marriage and a loving life is her redeeming quality, bb's selfish love is her redeeming trait. enkidu speaks fondly of how gilgamesh in his youth was childishly selfish, just chasing after things he wanted, and that he only became warped when enkidu died and he started to think of himself like a king with people to lead. heck, even kotomine fits into this. the point where kotomine became warped was the point where he so completely denied and refused to acknowledge his own desires and his own struggles due to catholic guilt. ccc literally ends with hans delivering a giant speech about the difference between selfish and selfless love, and that anyone who lacks the former is a child who will never get anything they want and who will lead to the misery of those around him. he talks about an incident where he was in love with a homeless woman who was very kind and sweet, but he didn't want to make a move because he figured she deserved someone better than him, so he arranged to hook her up with a rich friend of his. her corpse was found floating in the river a week later. thats what this entire franchise thinks self-sacrifice amounts to. the point of heaven's feel isn't shirou sacrificing himself for sakura. shirou, selfishly, wants sakura. he involves innocent bystanders by risking their safety for his own wants, he fights kotomine just because he pisses him off. the entire sakura section isn't framing as rin and shirou selflessly risking it all to protect sakura, its framed as them storming in to beat up the people who annoy them and get what they want. shirou killing arturia is a metaphor for him killing his heroic, knightly desires. rin literally tells sakura that if she'd just been more selfish, none of this would have happened. the climax of sakura's arc is her embracing her selfishness and bitterness. i cannot possibly imagine having the read that this series thinks self-sacrifice is a valid option. Endorph fucked around with this message at 11:55 on Jan 16, 2020 |
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Jan 16, 2020 11:52
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also a super recurring constant in nasu works is characters who are living on borrowed time/limited lifespans. characters who are slowly falling apart every time they use their power. characters who were born/made to die for a cause. and in all of these cases the onus of the stories is in these characters re-framing their perspective into something optimistic, becoming heroes of love who fight to make the most of the time they were given. like, if you think shirou is 'sacrificing himself' during HF you have to remember that he was literally placed into a choice between dying or setting off a timebomb in his body. once he chooses the latter, the rest is just making the best of the time he has, pushing himself forward. sparks liner high is a really good bad ending because it's a foil to the True Ending. it shows you what happens when shirou decides to sacrifice himself instead of struggle and live until the end. Space Flower fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Jan 16, 2020 |
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Jan 16, 2020 12:11
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Nah, Shirou in Sparks Liner High is put into an impossible situation and struggles with it until, finally on Saber's prompting, accepts he can't get past her if he's holding anything back, and reasons that if he can't even get to Sakura then there's no point, so he'll just have to throw caution to the wind here and now. And though the ultimate conclusion wasn't the goal he strived for, he nevertheless dies with the satisfaction of having beat Saber. You could say he only dies at all because he forgot about Sakura for a moment in order to fulfill his wish of matching Saber.
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Jan 16, 2020 12:34
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Self sacrifice is a mistake but so is obsessing with the past and trying to undo your own actions. Saber only comes to terms with how she spent her life in FSN, that development just can't happen in FZ. And yeah Shirou fighting to save Sakura even though she's killing innocent people is explicitly framed as selfish, and the 'self sacrificing' option of just killing her is presented as a step on the road to Archerdom.
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Jan 16, 2020 13:47
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HF is quite literally about Shirou coming to terms with his hero complex by allowing a bit of selfishness into his life.
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Jan 16, 2020 16:14
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Conspiratiorist posted:Nah, Shirou in Sparks Liner High is put into an impossible situation and struggles with it until, finally on Saber's prompting, accepts he can't get past her if he's holding anything back, and reasons that if he can't even get to Sakura then there's no point, so he'll just have to throw caution to the wind here and now.
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Jan 16, 2020 18:15
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i feel like y'all are, broadly speaking, conflating murdering other people and being sad about it with actual self-sacrifice.
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Jan 17, 2020 00:22
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:i feel like y'all are, broadly speaking, conflating murdering other people and being sad about it with actual self-sacrifice. Nah that's what Kiritsugu does.
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Jan 17, 2020 00:31
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Hungry posted:Nah that's what Kiritsugu does. exactly but also that's what killing Sakura in HF would have been like it's not exactly an accident that HF basically treats that as him becoming Kiritsugu that's not the selfless option, that's the "throwing an innocent person under the bus because Seigi No Mikata" option
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Jan 17, 2020 00:35
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Thats a fair argument to make but its not how the game presents it at all. Shirous entire arc leads to the self-sacrifice versus selfishness split in fsn. Angras entire backstory and character is a mirror of that.
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Jan 17, 2020 00:44
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But Kiritsugu feels really bad when he sacrifices someone else, that has to count for something!
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Jan 17, 2020 00:44
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:so fiancee and i got to the banquet of kings in our F/Z watch-through
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Jan 17, 2020 00:45
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Lt. Lizard posted:But Kiritsugu feels really bad when he sacrifices someone else, that has to count for something! 
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Jan 17, 2020 00:47
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Endorph posted:Also really hope the 'she' here means arturia and not your fiance yeah i meant artoria there, my fiancee actually fell asleep right before the scene started  i mostly kept watching instead of pausing because i remembered it's basically the center of 75% of F/Z discourse and realized i should jog my memory on it
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Jan 17, 2020 00:54
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The center of 75% of F/Z discourse should be that Iri needed more screentime. edit: with Saber.
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Jan 17, 2020 01:49
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