|
kiritsugu should have been hit in the head with a rock and died seven minutes into episode 2
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 01:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 11:07 |
|
|
Kerry probably should have figures hey I have a daughter and a wife that love me, maybe that's better than trying to follow through with a vague and life wrecking ideology. A rock is fine too, that was the end of FZ basically
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 02:23
|
|
|
i will say it's unironically funny as gently caress to me that the ending of F/Z is, in a nutshell, the embodiment of all evil meeting Kerry and going "man even by my standards you're a garbage rear end in a top hat" and it owns him so hard that he immediately renounces violence and devotes the rest of his life to childcare
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 02:35
|
|
|
The very nature of Fate/Zero as a prequel means that Kiritsugu had to fail.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 02:53
|
|
|
Dr Pepper posted:The very nature of Fate/Zero as a prequel means that Kiritsugu had to fail. And he failed hilariously.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 02:55
|
|
|
In terms of Fate Zero specifically, I think Kariya is a more straightforward example of "self-sacrifice is bad and dumb."
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 03:09
|
|
|
Isn't Kariya's deal more that he's insanely selfish and just wants to front heroism? I think it's awkwardly handled because F/Zero, but
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 03:15
|
|
|
Well, that's kind of the point though, imo. Self-sacrifice is inherently about your own feelings and your own desires, and is never actually what the other person wants. Like, no one wants Shirou to kill himself for them either, he's doing it because of his own hang-ups. It's just part of the story's general cynicism about the very idea of it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 03:19
|
|
|
Compendium posted:Kerry probably should have figures hey I have a daughter and a wife that love me, maybe that's better than trying to follow through with a vague and life wrecking ideology. That'd be an interesting spinoff. Maybe it could lead to a magical girl series about...I dunno, Illya, maybe? Motto posted:Isn't Kariya's deal more that he's insanely selfish and just wants to front heroism? I think it's awkwardly handled because F/Zero, but Yeah, Kariya is nowhere near selfless. Everything he does is because he really, really wants to get laid. He's just as messed up as every other Matou, but he's better at presenting himself as a good person unlike his nephew's terrible attempts at it or his father not even trying.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 03:19
|
|
|
To be fair he seemed quite content with everything until he found out the daughter of the woman he loved was given to his creepy family to do unspeakable things to.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 03:21
|
|
|
Maybe this is an easier way to understand it: Kariya seems to be FZ's way of mocking the idea of self-sacrifice.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 03:22
|
|
|
I thought Fate/Zero was all about "Ladies in snazzy suits are cool, bikes are rad, wa ha ha"
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 03:57
|
|
|
I think there's a disconnect in how broadly people are defining "self-sacrifice", so I think a better way of framing it is that total selflessness is extremely unhealthy if not just disingenuous.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 04:27
|
|
|
So Ubw: Being a hero of justice is awful and contradictory but there is value in it while Hf: Being a hero of justice is awful and contradictory so try to be less selfless?
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 05:04
|
|
|
Hungry posted:The center of 75% of F/Z discourse should be that Iri needed more screentime. I have no argument against this
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 05:13
|
|
|
I would be quite happy with the story ending with Iri and Saber surviving together and raising Illyasviel and Shirou
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 05:20
|
|
|
I knew going in that they didn't get as much as people wanted, but I was still thrown when it amounted to a single day out offscreen.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 06:20
|
|
|
Blaze Dragon posted:That'd be an interesting spinoff. Maybe it could lead to a magical girl series about...I dunno, Illya, maybe? 
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 06:36
|
|
|
I think framing it as selfishness vs selflessness is a little narrow? I’ve always thought about the throughline of fate being more about, idk, abstract ideals and ideas vs real people and relationships. Like, F-Zero is kind of weird about a lot of things because it’s a trashy prequel but it feels pretty baked in, everyone is incredibly brain poisoned by ideologies to the point where they had to have fuckin baby rin jump in for an episode to give a poo poo about the mass child murderers everyone had to be bribed to try and stop. It’s not GREAT at it (Iri continues to deserve so much better) but idk I’ve always felt that’s what Fate was about.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 06:46
|
|
|
i dunno i feel like that's a weird take on Kariya y'all like Kariya has a huge, huge thing for Aoi and kinda hates Tokiomi over it, but, like, that's not what makes him get involved, he's perfectly okay just letting them be happy until he finds out that Tokiomi gave Sakura to the Matous to get worm-raped for years. he basically finds that out and goes "OH GOD WHAT THE gently caress" and makes the idiot kneejerk decision to make a deal with zouken to try and unfuck that situation. F/Z isn't mocking self-sacrifice in general with Kariya, F/Z is mocking pointless and poorly thought out self-sacrifice with him; he achieves literally nothing by giving his life (and arguably fucks Sakura up even worse), and even if he had succeeded, giving Zouken the Grail is arguably just making things even goddamn worse e: like, you're not really supposed to dislike Kariya or think he's doing the wrong thing; that whole arc is basically an anime-only viewer's introduction to Zouken being the absolute loving worst, not some kind of takedown of the dude he hosed over. if Zouken wasn't at roughly 10.6 gigahitlers on the evil richter scale, that probably would have worked out somewhat less horribly for Kariya, but unfortunately, he's instead dealing with someone who's only not constantly twirling the largest handlebar mustache he possibly can because he physically cannot grow hair anymore. WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Jan 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 10:42
|
|
|
Iri needs (deserves) a magical mom spinoff show.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 11:22
|
|
|
I'm sorry but while Kariya's motives getting into it can be argued (I personally think he really did want to save Sakura but went bonkers from the torture) you are absolutely supposed to think ill of him by the end. Remember the Strangling? Or even earlier in the war how he prioritizes his grudge with Tokiomi over actually helping Sakura or even winning? Alex even specifically calls him out about his priorities in Accel Zero.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 11:35
|
|
|
Watching the show it felt like we were supposed to be in Kariya's corner at first but around the time he went after Tokiomi things started to fall apart, and not in a way that feels particularly cohesive. In general he's just kinda badly written and exists more for the dumb melodrama of his various situations than anything even before that becomes his literal purpose to other characters in the story. There's no consistent throughline for his character that satisfyingly explains his actions because like, at best we can say he went ~crazy~ from worm poisoning offscreen and even then spends the next 8 episodes moping silently in alleyways about it. Which like, given what FZ is is fine, It's a junk food prequel stuffed with 80% disposable characters after all, Kariya specifically just feels a little like he should be more than that given all the important real touchstones he's entangled with.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 12:00
|
|
|
Kariya never actually goes "Hey so this is what the Matou magecraft is like, does that sound like a good thing for your daughter?" does he? Not that Tokiomi would necessarily care given he's probably the most mage-y mage that ever maged, but to me Kariya definitely comes across to me like the larger part of his motivation stems from the chip he has on his shoulder against magecraft in general and Zouken and Tokiomi specifically I like Zero a fair bit, but to me the biggest "but why?" is why anyone with half a brain (who's not a Servant; them being lied to is kind of inherent in the entire premise) believes the HGW will result in genuine no-catches omnipotent wish granting. Specifically Kiritsugu; dude is so dang skeptical and suspicious of literally everything, but he's willing to pin his hopes and dreams on some shady ritual that a bunch of the bastards he's spent his entire life killing cooked up?
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 14:22
|
|
|
LORD OF BOOTY posted:e: like, you're not really supposed to dislike Kariya or think he's doing the wrong thing Heck, he never even told *Aoi* what Sakura was going through, and while Aoi wasn't a magus, surely her knowing is more helpful than her not knowing. And Kayneth or Kiritsugu would have probably been open to an alliance if he just said 'yo have your servant pop into my place for five minutes to murder my grandpa and then I'll command seal Lancelot to kill himself' or 'then i'll do whatever you want for the rest of the war'. I think Zouken dying would have killed the worms in Kariya, which in turn would have made it harder for him to keep Lancelot supplied with mana, so maybe the second one wouldn't have worked, but still. Heck speaking of command seals, he could have just told Lancelot to kick down Zouken's door and start dual wielding SMGs like a level in Halo 2. It would have put Sakura at risk but his plan in itself puts Sakura at risk, and he could have just grabbed her and ran. What's Zouken gonna do, kill Lancelot with his worm powers? The fact is Kariya clearly couldn't work with any plan that involved Tokiomi and Aoi still being together, because he wants Aoi and hates Tokiomi. He doesn't want to kill Zouken, he wants to kill Tokiomi. The Fate/Zero material book even puts out that for how much he hates Zouken, he really isn't that different from him. quote:When all's said and done, as long as he carried the Matou spirit of putting grudges before everything else, he was probably doomed to failure no matter what.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 15:29
|
|
|
Yeah, every time Kariya was doing anything in zero I was saying to my wife "Why doesn't he just have lancelot squash Zouken like we literally any servant could do or throw the war so someone else could that seems like it would solve everything???". I guess if he was always motivated by spiting Tokiomi primarily that goes some way to explaining his actions (though the strangulation scene is still unbelievably dumb), I just wish this show had used some of it's run time to, you know, communicate or foreshadow that or have them spend more than a single scene together. As is every new Kariya developement feels kind of like hasty retroactive justification.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 15:46
|
|
|
Yeah I think some flashbacks of kariya, aoi, and tokiomi as teens would have gone a long way. Certainly more useful to the plot than 'btw rin met a serial killer when she was 10'
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 15:50
|
|
|
? It's well established that it's almost impossible to get rid of Zouken. Like yes, almost every Servant in either Grail War would pulverize his body in seconds, but that doesn't really do much, because he can just use his insects to reform somewhere else. Plus I'm pretty sure he can control the worms in both Kariyas and Sakuras bodies at will so in F/Z he has both a hostage and a killswitch in case Kariya tries to defect. I agree with the general gist that Kariya is a selfish idiot who wasted his best chance to actually save Sakura out of spite towards Tokiomi and almost hilariously misplaced machismo in trying to do everything himself, but I am pretty confused where the "lol Kariya dumb, wtf just order a Servant to kill Zouken, gg ez" sentiment came from. Zouken not being someone who you can just beat up with a Servant and be done with it is the main reason he is a threat in Heavens Feel after all.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 16:30
|
|
|
As far as servants go I would wager the only ones in the 4th and 5h who I think could probably reliably get rid of him are Medea and Gil because they could just pull some magic or np respectively out of their butts. Otherwise it's pretty hard, short of an AoE you just hope nukes wherever his core is hiding. Maybe Cu's Gae Bolg stab would do it, actually.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 16:52
|
|
|
Endorph posted:Yeah I think some flashbacks of kariya, aoi, and tokiomi as teens would have gone a long way. Certainly more useful to the plot than 'btw rin met a serial killer when she was 10'
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 16:57
|
|
|
IIRC the novel did a better job of showing Kariya's thought process. It's mostly an adaptation failure thing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 17:08
|
|
|
have lancelot fly a plane into zoukens house, i have to imagine thatd kill all the worms
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 17:38
|
|
|
The weirdest thing about Kariya's role in the story is that he's a major catalyst for Kotomine's development, but it's delivered as exposition between him and Gil where they divine his whole character before he's actually done all that much.Kyte posted:IIRC the novel did a better job of showing Kariya's thought process. It's mostly an adaptation failure thing. The novel is also pretty short, I think, which would avoid the issue where he basically doesn't do anything for the first season besides send Lancelot after Gil once and save Rin.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 17:54
|
|
|
Kyte posted:IIRC the novel did a better job of showing Kariya's thought process. It's mostly an adaptation failure thing. Kariya, just like the rest of the Matou household, was terrified of Zouken to a borderline irrational degree - borderline, because Zouken is an ancient immortal monster after all. In that house the word of the patriarch is absolute, and every family member has been conditioned to understand this deep down. Despite having enough of a spine to gently caress off and away, Kariya wasn't immune to it all. So, it's not a stretch to see how he honestly thought that the only way to get Sakura out was if Zouken himself allowed it. That's why he made the deal, deluding himself into thinking it might just work for the sake of forcing himself through it. And then the rest of the story isn't truly representative of Kariya as a person because he's going insane from brain worms and constant physical and psychological torture.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 17:59
|
|
|
It's hilarious how FGO's Accel Zero event shows how easy it is to save Sakura compared to Kariya's way about it, Zouken don't mean much if you have enough people, believe me.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 18:29
|
|
|
Zouken is very hard to kill, but he's not as good at defending a territory. And while he could at one time stand up to a mid-range Servant, that was in his prime, which was during the Victorian era. At the time of FSN he's senile and literally rotting.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 20:20
|
|
|
He still managed to kill kojiro
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 20:21
|
|
|
Isn't the crux of Fate/Apocrypha that Darnic clowned on both the Nazis and Zouken with the classy equivalent of "Nah-uh! Nope! Eat my gently caress, motherfuckers!" and he did so without much effort? Yeah I know "Alternate Universe" this and that, but still.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 20:28
|
|
|
in the main timeline he ate poo poo so...
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 20:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 11:07 |
|
|
Stairmaster posted:He still managed to kill kojiro Kojiro is alive in my heart
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2020 20:59
|
|