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FreudianSlippers posted:Is a SSN not something you get automatically upon birth? No, the parents have to apply. quote:Getting a Social Security number for your newborn is voluntary. But, getting a number when your child is born is a good idea. ...parents are highly incentivized to apply immediately though: quote:You need a Social Security number to claim your child as a dependent on your income tax return. Your child may also need a number if you plan to:
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Jan 19, 2020 01:12
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FreudianSlippers posted:Sounds like America has a lot of instances of things being made needlessly complicated. C'mon, think for a minute. There is no way to automatically assign SSNs at birth. Think about what that would entail. I am not an expert on national ID systems, but a quick googling says all nations with similar populations and such systems require an appliation process. It's never automatic. The US SSN system, to the degree that it's more complicated than other countries (it's not) is older than other systems and covers a bigger population, operating across multiple states.
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Jan 19, 2020 01:49
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Fun fact: some people choose not to have social security numbers https://youtu.be/Erp8IAUouus
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Jan 19, 2020 02:33
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Discendo Vox posted:C'mon, think for a minute. There is no way to automatically assign SSNs at birth. Think about what that would entail. I am not an expert on national ID systems, but a quick googling says all nations with similar populations and such systems require an appliation process. It's never automatic.
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Jan 19, 2020 02:35
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Tiggum posted:Do you not have to register births in America? That's mandatory here. It's not automatic, but you would have to take extreme measures to avoid it and not get chased up about it until you did it. we don't register them nationally, only within each state. national birth data is collected from state data. most states make it mandatory, it difficult not to. it also means the collection method, and information asked for is different depending on the state.
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Jan 19, 2020 04:51
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Something a lot of people forget is that TheUnited States is technically a collection of sovereignties. Speaking of old cultural references, prior to the Civil War, people tended to say and write "the United States are such-and-such." After the war it became common to use the singular : "the United States is such-and-such."
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Jan 19, 2020 14:20
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Discendo Vox posted:C'mon, think for a minute. There is no way to automatically assign SSNs at birth. Think about what that would entail. I am not an expert on national ID systems, but a quick googling says all nations with similar populations and such systems require an appliation process. It's never automatic. When my son was born in Denmark, he got a SSN immediately, and the name "boy A motherslastname". They had a little printer for the armband, which was ready before we left the OR. In this vein: the US census. It took me well into my twenties to understand that your guys still do these. It's completely archaic to someone who grew up in Denmark to imagine having to ask people to get an idea of the population.
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Jan 19, 2020 16:39
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Sorry to continue the cash vs electronic debate but: how do people in these cashless utopias buy drugs? Every time this subject comes up I wonder this. Also, if you bake a Manhattan-sized phone book in a very low-temp oven, a skinny woman like me can tear it easily. Looks like a normal phonebook, but dries out the glue and paper so you can do it with almost no effort. Great party/winning-a-bet trick. Also also, I was born in the early 70's and didn't get a SSN until I must've been 8 or so. I remember because when I signed the card, I put the equivalent of "Jackie" instead of "Jacqueline" on there, and dang my mom was pissed. When I hit 18 and really needed a SS card for college, work, etc, I got another one issued and signed my legal name (with a lot less curlicues).
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Jan 19, 2020 19:51
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JacquelineDempsey posted:Also also, I was born in the early 70's and didn't get a SSN until I must've been 8 or so. I remember because when I signed the card, I put the equivalent of "Jackie" instead of "Jacqueline" on there, and dang my mom was pissed. When I hit 18 and really needed a SS card for college, work, etc, I got another one issued and signed my legal name (with a lot less curlicues). Also no one is going to compare your signature to your SS card's. BonHair posted:When my son was born in Denmark, he got a SSN immediately, and the name "boy A motherslastname". They had a little printer for the armband, which was ready before we left the OR.
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Jan 19, 2020 20:13
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kaschei posted:
You basically can't do anything with a CPR-number, as it's called. And we give those out to everyone who's here legally. And we register address, gender, name and probably a lot of other stuff along with the number. You essentially can't get paid without a bank account, and you can't get those without a CPR-number, along with all sorts of other things. We do have an unknown number of illegal migrants we can't count, but I'm not convinced they would turn up in a census. As for cashless drugs: some idiots use Mobile Pay (exactly what it sounds like), but mostly, it's still cash. The famously most used ATM in Copenhagen by far is the over closest to the drug buying part of town. We mostly use cash for drugs and tax evasion though. I knew a carpenter who always had wads of cash because the whole business is very tax evasive.
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Jan 19, 2020 20:42
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kaschei posted:Your signature doesn't matter at all. You can sign your name X for all anyone official cares. The only exception is if you are forging someone else's signature or misrepresenting yourself fraudulently. Denmark is used for a lot of very broad co-hort studies in medicine for the exact reason that we have so much digital data on every single one of the people living here. BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Jan 19, 2020 |
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Jan 19, 2020 20:46
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BonHair posted:When my son was born in Denmark, he got a SSN immediately, and the name "boy A motherslastname". They had a little printer for the armband, which was ready before we left the OR. Most large developed countries still run censuses, although they are being phased out. It just so happens that Denmark has less population than New York, so the practical challenge of running a registry based system is tiny compared to doing so across a massive federated system of more than 60x as many people.
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Jan 19, 2020 20:48
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BonHair posted:We do have an unknown number of illegal migrants we can't count, but I'm not convinced they would turn up in a census. If I recall, one of the whole points of the US census is it does count everyone including illegal immigrants. That's why there was a huge uproar when Trump wanted to add a question about immigration status to the census, since then there would be a huge worry that anyone without fully legal status wouldn't respond to the census and therefore the data wouldn't be nearly as useful.
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Jan 19, 2020 20:50
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To a stronger point: there is a political advantage to certain (mostly red) states to undercount the people in the high population (mostly blue) states, which happen to be the states where illegal immigrants are concentrated. Not coincidentally, it is exactly the same advantage that the slave states claimed over the free states when the constitution was originally written, and is the origin of the 3/5ths compromise; the slave states wanted to count all the slaves as 1 person each, the free states didn't want to count them at all, and the 3/5ths compromise was a giant victory for the slave states, and in a single stroke created an immensely powerful incentive to import into those states as many slaves as possible. To wit: the more people you have in your state, the more representatives you get in the house of representatives compared to the other states, because house reps are apportioned by comparative population. The southern slave states in 1776 had comparatively low populations, and given the abolitionist bent of most of the northern states, they (probably correctly) assumed that if they couldn't maintain parity or an advantage in both the senate and the house, slavery in the US would be abolished within a decade. Or actually it wouldn't, because the southern states would secede and the brand new country would collapse and the european powers would re-establish their colonial power and the experiment would be over. Which may very well have happened, or maybe not, but that was the line that the delegates from the southern states drew; they said that if they took a constitution back to their states to be ratified that did not secure slavery and a balance of power to the southern states, the voters (exclusively rich white land-owning farmers, mind you) would fail to ratify and it'd be over. The northerners held their noses and naievely believed they'd be able to abolish slavery in maybe 20 years instead of 10, and let them have their 3/5ths of a person on the census. So, the american census is and always has been as much a tool of political struggle between ideologically fragmented states, as it is a tool for allocating resources fairly. To the extent the US census is less than highly effective at counting people, it's almost always because various political factions have deliberately made it so, in order to attempt to gain advantage. That illegal immigrants (and even legal immigrants in some cases) fear identification and expulsion through the social security registry system or the census has been a convenient opportunity to exploit by the factions that are advantaged if they do not register or hide instead of being counted, and the census has been used intentionally to stoke that fear in the past. We could accurately count every person in America with far less trouble if everyone in charge of the count wanted us to. e. I would also like to note that you can totally pay taxes in the US without an SSN, and many illegal immigrants do, including paying into a social security system that they cannot benefit from without an SSN. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Jan 19, 2020 |
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Jan 19, 2020 21:08
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:My experience working for tips is that it's a hell of a lot easier to live almost cash-only in Canada than in the US. And that eradicating physical currency isn't necessarily a good thing. It's kind sorta elitist and bullshit and locks people out of paying for things they by all rights should be able to pay for. I had a landlord who was completely cool with paying rent in cash or literally any format as long as it got to him and I still insisted on paying through venmo because not having a third-party record of whether or not you paid something like rent is just asking for trouble
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Jan 19, 2020 21:11
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:If I recall, one of the whole points of the US census is it does count everyone including illegal immigrants. There is a huge difference between being illegal in the two countries, given that you can basically be a regular part of society in the US, while you are super limited/dependent on your "employer" in Denmark. But yeah, not counting those people is a blind spot that we try to make up for by counting arrests and such. Transferring the system to the US probably wouldn't be that technically difficult, just add a couple extra digits. Implementation would be be hell though, both in terms of public outrage and logistics. Denmark basically piggybacked on the state church registrations, making it a lot easier. Parts of the system is still part of the church, including anything to do with names.
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Jan 19, 2020 21:30
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The problem in the US is that we're all good and paranoid, ready to chomp at the bit to say that anything is the mark of the beast and a sign of the end times and part of a secret government conspiracy to track all of my movements. We're an excitable people.
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Jan 20, 2020 05:45
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It strikes me that it used to be much more common for Antichrist to be plural rather than a singular figure before the release of the Left Behind series.
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Jan 20, 2020 06:11
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JacquelineDempsey posted:Sorry to continue the cash vs electronic debate but: how do people in these cashless utopias buy drugs? Every time this subject comes up I wonder this. I can't speak for any harder drugs, but here in Canada you can just buy weed legally from a store. You pay for it like you'd pay for anything else.
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Jan 20, 2020 06:55
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Cemetry Gator posted:The problem in the US is that we're all good and paranoid, ready to chomp at the bit to say that anything is the mark of the beast and a sign of the end times and part of a secret government conspiracy to track all of my movements. We've also had, in recent memory, exposure of government programs such as the NSA domestic wiretapping scandal that reveal the American government sometimes is doing exactly what the conspiracy theorists fear they're doing.
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Jan 20, 2020 07:05
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:It strikes me that it used to be much more common for Antichrist to be plural rather than a singular figure before the release of the Left Behind series. Nah. It’s been regarded a singular entity for decades; many terrible Cold War era dictators have been accused of being It by various sects.
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Jan 20, 2020 07:16
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:It strikes me that it used to be much more common for Antichrist to be plural rather than a singular figure before the release of the Left Behind series.
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Jan 20, 2020 08:16
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Some of them were #1 NYT bestsellers. It was definitely a huge thing at the time. It isn't really on people's minds anymore the same way that like Tuesdays with Morrie isn't.
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Jan 20, 2020 08:34
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i like nice words
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Son of a Vondruke! posted:I can't speak for any harder drugs, but here in Canada you can just buy weed legally from a store. You pay for it like you'd pay for anything else. Really? Wow! Next you're gonna tell me you can buy milk or bread with a debit card, too! Jfc, obviously I was talking about places where weed isn't legal.
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Jan 20, 2020 11:41
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JacquelineDempsey posted:Really? Wow! Next you're gonna tell me you can buy milk or bread with a debit card, too! Uh... you do realize there's no country in the world where cash straight up doesn't exist. There's an obvious answer to your question. So obvious that I just thought you were joking. They go to an ATM first. Son of a Vondruke! fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Jan 20, 2020 |
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Jan 20, 2020 15:59
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:It strikes me that it used to be much more common for Antichrist to be plural rather than a singular figure before the release of the Left Behind series. So what are some antichrist references in older media that would be lost on me, the member of modern audience?
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Jan 20, 2020 19:22
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Fish of hemp posted:So what are some antichrist references in older media that would be lost on me, the member of modern audience? There's compelling evidence that the Book of Revelation is contemporary political allegory about Rome. that old enough for you? Midjack posted:Nah. It’s been regarded a singular entity for decades; many terrible Cold War era dictators have been accused of being It by various sects. Decades? Expand your frame of reference. There is only one reference to the Antichrist being a singular entity in the Bible proper. The history stretches back muuuuuuuuuuuch further back than the Cold War (plenty of people though Napoleon would be the Antichrist) but the specific public idea of "Antichrist" as "Nega-Jesus" is extremely a modern American school of thought, rather than the actual meaning which is anything that leads us away from unity in the Godhead. Tiggum posted:Is Left Behind actually well-known, or just one of those things that's well-known to internet people and otherwise just among a very small and dedicated fanbase? there are huge swaths of western Christendom which considers it an authoritative text.
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Jan 20, 2020 19:41
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BonHair posted:When my son was born in Denmark, he got a SSN immediately, and the name "boy A motherslastname". They had a little printer for the armband, which was ready before we left the OR. "he got a SSN immediately" after being born in a hospital. In a country smaller than one US city, with a non-federal government. Questioning the necessity of the US census is a whole other...like, I don't know where to start there. Yes, there is a legitimate need for a national census. Yes, the census covers noncitizen residents. The census covers a lot more, and does a lot more, than you seem to think. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jan 20, 2020 |
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Jan 20, 2020 20:05
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Discendo Vox posted:"he got a SSN immediately" after being born in a hospital. In a country smaller than one US city, with a non-federal government.
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Jan 20, 2020 20:49
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Eliminating the US census would require a constitutional amendment or at least some creative legal arguments about the definition of census
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Jan 20, 2020 21:03
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D. Ebdrup posted:While the US census covers a lot (I've helped a Danish-American friend fill one out), I'd wager there's a bigger chance you don't know how much the Danish system records about Danes. It's very likely that I don't, but Bonhair just handwaved the entire question of noncitizens with "we are trying to fill it in with arrest records". It's a heckuva thing to simultaneously call the census " completely archaic". Separately, one aspect of the US census that gets missed is that what you helped your friend fill out was not the whole census- there are secondary surveys used by almost every part of the government that go out to statistically stratified subsamples. These are powerful specifically because they piggyback off of the census sample structure.
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Jan 20, 2020 21:09
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:If I recall, one of the whole points of the US census is it does count everyone including illegal immigrants. Not just that, but it would almost definitely lower response rates among legal non-citizen residents as well.
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Jan 20, 2020 21:13
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Discendo Vox posted:It's very likely that I don't, but Bonhair just handwaved the entire question of noncitizens with "we are trying to fill it in with arrest records". It's a heckuva thing to simultaneously call the census " completely archaic". Yeah I don't know what to say if your response to how would you take into account people on the margins of society is "Well we count them when we round them up of course!"
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Jan 20, 2020 21:25
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:Yeah I don't know what to say if your response to how would you take into account people on the margins of society is "Well we count them when we round them up of course!" It's a real problem, but the people not likely to show up in the Danish registry is basically entirely made up of refugees and migrants who know they won't get an asylum and literal slaves (I choose to believe this number is low, but who the gently caress knows). Counting then when we round them up sucks balls (especially because they shouldn't be arrested for being poor and black in the first place), but my point is that these are people that will hide from any official looking person, including hypothetical census workers. In theory, you could go pregnant and give birth all by yourself and avoid getting into the system, but that would mean no daycare, no school, no doctor and so on, including no job for the kid ever, because realistically, the only employment you can get without a bank account is drug dealer, which will probably get you into the system sooner or later (and probably then deported because you are not a citizen and we as a nation are super racist). Part of the reason we have this registry of everyone who's here legally for other reasons than tourism is that we have been recording everyone since forever, or at least hundreds of years. Everyone got written their birth in the church books, as well as major life events such as marriage and death. Having it all in a government computer is just a small upgrade. The US has a completely different history, including a lot more freedom, and the census makes sense in that context, but it still seems extremely old fashioned from the perspective of the Big Brother society that is Denmark.
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Jan 20, 2020 21:56
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Given that the government and companies are now are now allowed to collate information between systems - something they gave themselves the power to do rather recently - the Danish system has become much more likely to be abused. There truly is something rotten in the state of Denmark.
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Jan 20, 2020 22:07
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a few years ago there was a young woman who was trying to set up her own life independently of her turbo christian homeschooler family and turns out that's real hard to do if you legally don't exist in the eyes of the state https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/invisible-girl quote:ROBERT: Well, you were born. Didn't -- when you were born, didn't they say, "Okay, well this is the hospital, we'll ..."
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Jan 20, 2020 22:09
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:Decades? Expand your frame of reference. There is only one reference to the Antichrist being a singular entity in the Bible proper. The history stretches back muuuuuuuuuuuch further back than the Cold War (plenty of people though Napoleon would be the Antichrist) but the specific public idea of "Antichrist" as "Nega-Jesus" is extremely a modern American school of thought, rather than the actual meaning which is anything that leads us away from unity in the Godhead. I can’t tell what point you’re arguing so you win by default I guess. 
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Jan 20, 2020 22:52
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Midjack posted:I can’t tell what point you’re arguing so you win by default I guess. the antichrist isn't "one dude" it's "anything that distracts you from your journey with Jesus." The idea that it's one specific dude named poo poo like DAMIEN CARPATHIAN destined to bring about the end times is extremely not-actually-in-the-Bible.
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Jan 20, 2020 22:57
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Half of Christanity isn't in the bible.
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Jan 21, 2020 00:18
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Even though there are people who will avoid the census, it’ll still provide a lot more useful data than any other self-reporting option. From a genealogical perspective it’s invaluable. Especially the part where old census data becomes available to the public after 70 years. There are a lot of people chomping at the bit right now for some swell 1950’s data, daddy-o.
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Jan 21, 2020 05:42
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