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France’s national identity was deliberately and violently sculpted in the nineteenth century, and as alluded to there are still ugly undercurrents highlighted by “black football man”. It’s an outlier even in Europe, land of nation‐states. e: unrelated snipe tax 
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Jan 20, 2020 13:47
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Carbon dioxide posted:I will never understand why Americans care so much about their family history. White Americans (who don't latch on to hate groups, anyway) don't have an identity we respect. Some of us recognise that this isn't even our land. We only have several flavors of systemic racism for a legacy and set of traditions, and search for some sort of historical traditions to replace them. Then we find out our European roots are basically the same batch of genocide and opression, and start drinking heavily. I, for one, latch on to that little drop of Irish in me so I can at least think I'm from a bunch of starving farmers.
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Jan 20, 2020 14:39
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JesusGeorge posted:White Americans (who don't latch on to hate groups, anyway) don't have an identity we respect. Some of us recognise that this isn't even our land. We only have several flavors of systemic racism for a legacy and set of traditions, and search for some sort of historical traditions to replace them. Then we find out our European roots are basically the same batch of genocide and opression, and start drinking heavily. I, for one, latch on to that little drop of Irish in me so I can at least think I'm from a bunch of starving farmers. I suspect that didn't help you with heavy drinking.
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Jan 20, 2020 14:47
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Blue Footed Booby posted:Country of immigrants has immigration as part of identity narrative. Europeans confused. Are you under the impression that the countries and peoples of Europe are as they have always been since the beginning of time? I don’t hear english people saying “well I’m a Saxon of course, really hope I can visit my roots in northern Germany one day”
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Jan 20, 2020 17:34
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Soricidus posted:Are you under the impression that the countries and peoples of Europe are as they have always been since the beginning of time?
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Jan 20, 2020 17:48
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Name a single good thing an Angle or a Saxon ever did.
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Jan 20, 2020 18:16
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Mauser posted:Name a single good thing a Saxon ever did. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZBXGVMOjJk
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Jan 20, 2020 18:21
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Platystemon posted:
Hahahaha, that's the stuff! I know it's solidly hosed up when my first reaction is to say, "Oh come on!!" at my monitor. (Turn it on, yeah, I know.)
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Jan 20, 2020 20:56
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Soricidus posted:Are you under the impression that the countries and peoples of Europe are as they have always been since the beginning of time? The point is it's part of the national identity, and happened in the past three hundred years. I'm not asking you to go "gee, you're right, Americans are right and good." I'm just explaining the cultural difference. 
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Jan 20, 2020 21:10
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Blue Footed Booby posted:The point is it's part of the national identity, and happened in the past three hundred years. I'm not asking you to go "gee, you're right, Americans are right and good." I'm just explaining the cultural difference. I was born in country A as well as my mum, but my dad was born in country B. My maternal grandfather was born in country B but his parents were from country C. My paternal grandfather was also born in country A but met my paternal grandmother (who was from country D) in country B. My maternal grandmother was also born in country A but met my grandfather in country B as well. Her parents were from country E, although a lot of them live in country F now and a few in country G. But when it’s census time I put that I’m from country A, partly because I was born here but mostly because I identify with it most strongly and choose to live here as an adult. But nobody is going to raise an eyebrow if I tell people I’m “from country B”. C is pushing it though, D is unrealistic and E is just completely batshit. Most people here have a family history similar to mine, and I’d be incredibly surprised if even a plurality of Americans who identify as, for example, German, have 50% of their descendants over the last three generations either from there or with parents from there. We simply don’t understand how you even come to the conclusion that you “identify as x”. Can you literally identify as whatever you want and not be called out on it? To be clear though: we don’t care if you want to identify as German (we just think it’s silly), we just don’t get the aversion to identifying as American. Not least because it opens us up to the “well if I was American I’d deny it as well!” gag, but that’s low hanging fruit. At least give us a challenge!
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Jan 20, 2020 21:34
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Soricidus posted:Are you under the impression that the countries and peoples of Europe are as they have always been since the beginning of time? That's because an American claiming Irish ancestry might be talking about grandpa moving to the US in 1920. An Englishman saying he's Saxon would have to be referring to an ancestor from... the fifth century?
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Jan 20, 2020 21:34
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Mauser posted:Name a single good thing an Angle or a Saxon ever did. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-49noOAFsG8
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Jan 20, 2020 23:20
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not really a chart or graph but fits the spirit of the thread
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Jan 20, 2020 23:51
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I don't know, angles allowed us to figure out solar dyanmics
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Jan 21, 2020 00:59
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Away all Goats posted:not really a chart or graph but fits the spirit of the thread Not the most intuitive 9/11 conspiracy.
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Jan 21, 2020 01:20
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Away all Goats posted:not really a chart or graph but fits the spirit of the thread Loss.jpg getting weirder every day
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Jan 21, 2020 04:56
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duckmaster posted:To be clear though: we don’t care if you want to identify as German (we just think it’s silly), we just don’t get the aversion to identifying as American. Not least because it opens us up to the “well if I was American I’d deny it as well!” gag, but that’s low hanging fruit. At least give us a challenge! This conversation started when someone thought identifying as American was crypto-white supremacy. That's why folks are leery about doing it.
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Jan 21, 2020 05:11
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Patrick Spens posted:This conversation started when someone thought identifying as American was crypto-white supremacy. That's why folks are leery about doing it. Can't imagine how anyone could look at the map and think "American" is somehow tied to "crypto-white supremacy":  ...if it ain't "tied", it's sure as hell "correlated."
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Jan 21, 2020 05:32
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I wonder what would happen if you listed "Southern" or "heritage not hate" as an option for ancestry.
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Jan 21, 2020 05:57
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ulmont posted:Can't imagine how anyone could look at the map and think "American" is somehow tied to "crypto-white supremacy": Because of how the key looks on my device I spent a good 15 seconds trying to figure out why there are so many Irish in the south.
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Jan 21, 2020 06:01
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I mean there are a lot of Irish in the south. A lot of emigration pressure and the colonies were the natural option. They were also the original English plantation labour source before slavery got going there.
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Jan 21, 2020 06:27
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Another part of why it's a no-no to identify as American is because white people killed the vast majority of people with any actual claim to that title over the course of the last 600 years, but there are enough still around to point it out that it's not at all wise to say it.
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Jan 21, 2020 06:28
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Plastik posted:Another part of why it's a no-no to identify as American is because white people killed the vast majority of people with any actual claim to that title over the course of the last 600 years, but there are enough still around to point it out that it's not at all wise to say it. If you're a white person with forbears who were here before the Revolution and you genuinely, non-maliciously don't know where all your people of the last few hundred years came from, what's an acceptable thing to call your nationality if not "American"? Do you want people just to guess based on their last name?
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Jan 21, 2020 06:44
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:If you're a white person with forbears who were here before the Revolution and you genuinely, non-maliciously don't know where all your people of the last few hundred years came from, what's an acceptable thing to call your nationality if not "American"? Do you want people just to guess based on their last name? People like that can say Colonial American and natives will keep saying Native American and we'll all collectively recognize that American without a modifier is a kind of ruined term in terms of ancestral nationality.
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Jan 21, 2020 07:14
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ulmont posted:Can't imagine how anyone could look at the map and think "American" is somehow tied to "crypto-white supremacy": Is it just me or is this map subtly different that the one I originally commented on? I mean, I do admit I fit the above as afaik the closest ancestor to me that wasn't born on this side of the ocean was before the civil war; I am a white mutt.
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Jan 21, 2020 08:09
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If you're from a colonial white family there's a good chance a woman somewhere in the line had some kids with someone else during one of America's great wars, or just via general filandery anyways. My last name is Welsh, from a family that settled with original colonists and people who blazed the Oregon trail, but DNA reveals we're Norwegian/Irish, which ties in pretty well with my dad being born 11 months after my "grandad" left to fight in WWII, so who the gently caress knows. The other half of my family settled in NY state just prior to the war and are very obviously Polish. It's all pretty pointless, kinda fun to travel to Poland and visit the area my great-grandparents grew up in though.
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Jan 21, 2020 08:26
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What's the stat that gets thrown around again? Large scale genetics study show that roughly 1 child in 10 is from a different father, rising to something like 1 in 4 for the third kid of a couple.
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Jan 21, 2020 09:28
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Fathis Munk posted:What's the stat that gets thrown around again? Large scale genetics study show that roughly 1 child in 10 is from a different father, rising to something like 1 in 4 for the third kid of a couple. Figures like that are not representative of the general population. The key is that the false paternity numbers are high in cases where paternity was tested. People tend to have suspicions before getting testing, so of course the sample is biased.
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Jan 21, 2020 09:56
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With Canada: French Canadians feeling that their heritage is “French Canadian” and not “French” is a little surprising. I’m not sure if it’s as icky as Americans going for “American”; I suspect it’s motivated by the same racism / xenophobia as the latter, but... Could it be justified, given Quebec’s circumstances in particular?
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Jan 21, 2020 12:55
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I'm going to be honest, this is the first time I hear that identifying as just American is racist somehow. Interesting stuff.
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Jan 21, 2020 13:22
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Yeah, the only reason I can imagine is if it has been appropriated by some group of nazis? It is a very normal way of dealing with mixed identity (identity superordination, where instead of identifying as a smaller unit, e.g., Texan or New Yorker, one goes for the larger group including both identities). I do it myself, identifying as European, as I moved countries about a decade ago. An alternative is hyphenation, where one keeps both identities alive simultaneously. Most of the expats I know fall under either category; typically European ones adopt the first while non-Europeans often adopt the latter (likely because there is no meaningful superordination that isn't everybody). It makes sense for somebody moving states in the US would identify as American. Other ways of dealing with multiple identities are compartmentalisation (e.g., one identity at home and another at work) or cultural domination, both of which I'd consider much more racist. One can consider the original American settlers as cultural dominators. African-American does not fit into this at it is not an amalgamation of African and (superordinated) American culture, but Irish-American is to some extent. French-Canadian also doesn't to me seem like it fits (nor as racist in any way). It is just Canadians speaking French.
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Jan 21, 2020 13:50
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Fathis Munk posted:What's the stat that gets thrown around again? Large scale genetics study show that roughly 1 child in 10 is from a different father, rising to something like 1 in 4 for the third kid of a couple.
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Jan 21, 2020 14:02
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Paladinus posted:I'm going to be honest, this is the first time I hear that identifying as just American is racist somehow. Interesting stuff. To be a bit clearer, there's a difference between thinking of yourself as an American and saying "I'm an American" when asked about your family's heritage for a survey. One of them is what most of the country (including myself) does on a day to day basis. The other speaks to a willful refusal to engage with the question of origin that, in my experience, is a hallmark of chuds nationwide.
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Jan 21, 2020 14:22
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The United States government used answers of “Japanese” ancestry in the census records to target its internment squads. I would not begrudge a person for answering a question about their ancestry in a coy way.
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Jan 21, 2020 14:47
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Capfalcon posted:To be a bit clearer, there's a difference between thinking of yourself as an American and saying "I'm an American" when asked about your family's heritage for a survey. Plastik upthread suggested that Colonial American was a proper term, but I imagine not many people are aware of its existence. In an informal conversation, if someone said on the topic of ancestry that they were an American, I would just assume their heritage was mixed to the point where they didn't firmly identify with any specific ethnicity of their ancestors, be it colonial or native. So basically, I'm just trying to understand, how plugged in one has to be to understand problematic implications of identifying simply as American, especially outside of Southern states.
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Jan 21, 2020 15:00
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VictualSquid posted:I remember there being some studies about genetic diversity, that suggest that those different fathers are generally of the same ingroup (that is race and even socioeconomc status) as the official father. Isn't that explained by women going after the men they know? That is, American society is very stratified by race and people tend to associate with others of the same socioeconomic status, so this is just what you'd expect.
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Jan 21, 2020 16:01
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I think a lot of it has to do with Americans thinking the US is the only place anyone ever immigrates to, while everywhere else is some uniform ethnic/national group, so if you're in America, you must either be of one of these groupings, or a clear combination thereof, or you just haven't dug far enough back.
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Jan 21, 2020 16:42
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Capfalcon posted:To be a bit clearer, there's a difference between thinking of yourself as an American and saying "I'm an American" when asked about your family's heritage for a survey. Willful refusal to engage the question is also a reasonable response to racists who can't accept that mixed European ancestry exists. I'm a mix of half a dozen European ancestries and colonial American only accounts for a quarter of it. I've run into lots of people who refuse to accept mixed European ancestry as an answer and must hear a specific European country and seen surveys that don't list mixed as an option. At some point you willfully refusing to engage with the question becomes second nature because people consistently refuse to accept a reasonable response. Leviathan Song has a new favorite as of 17:00 on Jan 21, 2020 |
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Jan 21, 2020 16:58
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Paladinus posted:Plastik upthread suggested that Colonial American was a proper term, but I imagine not many people are aware of its existence. In an informal conversation, if someone said on the topic of ancestry that they were an American, I would just assume their heritage was mixed to the point where they didn't firmly identify with any specific ethnicity of their ancestors, be it colonial or native. So basically, I'm just trying to understand, how plugged in one has to be to understand problematic implications of identifying simply as American, especially outside of Southern states. It may also have a lot to do with where you are, geographically. In Europe identifying as American wouldn't be a red flag. In the Northeast US or the Midwest it's probably fine, the signal/noise ratio is probably pretty much even. Where I am, Central Florida, there's a strong likelihood that a person identifying as American is a backwoods chud, because the mix of backwoods chuds and liberals is pretty mixed and a lot of dogwhistles get used to identify oneself as a total piece of poo poo to "the right people". In the South where it's safe to be hilariously racist it's basically a complete guarantee that the person saying it subscribes to the idea that Native Americans were subhumans keeping the land warm until the righteous European neo-Crusaders brought light and civilization and society to the shores of North America under the direct orders of the One True God. But again, nobody's going to say anything because The South is as inclusive of different varieties of racism as LGBTQ+ groups are of the things chuds hate the ever-living gently caress out of. E: So we're clear, I'm 1/8th native American and have been told that it's all the worst parts of me by members of my (0% native) father's family. It's such a common problem that I don't say it in mixed company anymore. Shit Fuckasaurus has a new favorite as of 18:11 on Jan 21, 2020 |
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Jan 21, 2020 18:08
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Paladinus posted:I'm going to be honest, this is the first time I hear that identifying as just American is racist somehow. Interesting stuff. So, "American" as an ethnic identity isn't racist. But it's created and made possible by racism. Because anyone who identifies as "American" is going to be white. Compare this to "African-American" or "American Indian" which both treat non-whiteness as a modifier to American. It's a legacy of a time when American was considered to be a land for white people and no one else. But like I said earlier, white-American isn't on the list.
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Jan 21, 2020 18:08
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