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I think the idea was that instead of "help come save us from the invincible First Order" the message that got the galaxy to respond was more along the lines of "hey guys we're attacking the First Order, they're vulnerable"
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Jan 24, 2020 22:19
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Ariong posted:Yeah, that was a really glaring error even by ROS’ standards. Can’t believe they didn’t catch that. hes bluer because hes gooder
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Jan 24, 2020 22:19
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chitoryu12 posted:Is it really any different from The Empire Strikes Back, though? The big difference is the Rebels have an entire fleet at the end of ESB, and almost nothing at the end of TLJ. But what they do have is all they need. They have moral clarity born of experience in Finn, bravery tempered with the wisdom born of failure in Poe, and the inspiring presence of a nobody from nowhere who has risen to power and resisted its temptation. That's the point of the exchange 2house2fly quoted.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:20
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2house2fly posted:I think the idea was that instead of "help come save us from the invincible First Order" the message that got the galaxy to respond was more along the lines of "hey guys we're attacking the First Order, they're vulnerable"
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Jan 24, 2020 22:20
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That was actually something else good about how TLJ handled the war. After seeing the Rebel fleet in ROTJ, it's easy to forget that it was actually built up gradually into a proper military force instead of just sprouting into existence. As Rogue One showed, it was initially a bunch of disparate factions who all had different ideas about what to do and how to do it, sometimes working at cross-purposes. It took years of work to get it into the state it was in when it won the war. Nobody showing up at Crait emphasizes just how hard it is to get regular people to care. None of the rich people care because they'll remain rich as long as they keep selling to whichever side wins, most of the poor don't bother because the sheer might of the First Order and the upper classes who fund them makes them feel powerless to help. It actually takes a pretty extraordinary amount of courage to look at the resurgence of the Empire and decide "I will lay my life on the line to stop them." None of the Resistance are strong because of their lineage or Force Destiny, but because they're the ones who actually stood up to do something. It makes the Resistance feel less like "the Rebellion but everyone is old now" and more like a throwback to real resistance movements in history.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:24
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Poe was right to mutiny in TLJ because Holdo refused to tell him that she had a plan, for no reason, so as far as he knew she wasn’t doing anything and was going to get them all killed. If they had like one line of dialogue where she says, “I can’t tell you my plan for operational security but I have one and I need you to trust me” then he actually would be a cocky hotshot and not just a guy trying to keep his friends alive.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:25
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Chuck Buried Treasure posted:Poe was right to mutiny in TLJ because Holdo refused to tell him that she had a plan, for no reason, so as far as he knew she wasn’t doing anything and was going to get them all killed. If they had like one line of dialogue where she says, “I can’t tell you my plan for operational security but I have one and I need you to trust me” then he actually would be a cocky hotshot and not just a guy trying to keep his friends alive.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:26
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Chuck Buried Treasure posted:Poe was right to mutiny in TLJ because Holdo refused to tell him that she had a plan, for no reason, so as far as he knew she wasn’t doing anything and was going to get them all killed. If they had like one line of dialogue where she says, “I can’t tell you my plan for operational security but I have one and I need you to trust me” then he actually would be a cocky hotshot and not just a guy trying to keep his friends alive. This basically. The movie was very much trying to convince the viewer that Poe is right. Which subverts the whole idea that it's some kind of teachable moment for Poe, when it seems a lot more like them going "you fool, you absolute fool" to the viewer for believing that maybe the plucky hot shot protagonist might be right about something.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:29
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CainFortea posted:The movie was very much trying to convince the viewer that Poe is right.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:31
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cams posted:nah he should have respected the chain of command and his (and your) distrust of holdo is because she is a woman gently caress you
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Jan 24, 2020 22:32
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Chuck Buried Treasure posted:Poe was right to mutiny in TLJ because Holdo refused to tell him that she had a plan, for no reason, so as far as he knew she wasn’t doing anything and was going to get them all killed. If they had like one line of dialogue where she says, “I can’t tell you my plan for operational security but I have one and I need you to trust me” then he actually would be a cocky hotshot and not just a guy trying to keep his friends alive. He's a cocky hotshot, she's middle management promoted to CEO and painfully aware of how bad their situation is and how ill-equipped she is to manage it. They're both at fault, basically
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Jan 24, 2020 22:33
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cams posted:uh oh you seem to have brought your own preconceived notions about gender roles into the movie watching because poe is very clearly, from the beginning, shown to be foolish and headstrong! he's framed as the sympathetic protagonist every step of the way. it's trying to make a statement by using your natural sympathy for the protagonist in a movie as a stand-in for bias; i'm not sure how well i think that works
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Jan 24, 2020 22:33
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Cease to Hope posted:he's framed as the sympathetic protagonist every step of the way. it's trying to make a statement by using your natural sympathy for the protagonist in a movie as a stand-in for bias; i'm not sure how well i think that works pretty much every choice he makes from minute one is wrong and leads to getting people killed for no reason i actually do know it is because people are pre-disposed to thinking the charismatic attractive male lead is the hero and you should be on his side
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Jan 24, 2020 22:35
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cams posted:nah he should have respected the chain of command and his (and your) distrust of holdo is because she is a woman I like TLJ a lot but "moments before our imminent death" is not the time an effective leader would be trying to Teach Someone A Lesson, sorry. That poo poo can wait until after we get away from the Deathfucker 3000
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Jan 24, 2020 22:35
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cams posted:...i genuinely do not know how you watch the first 20 minutes of the movie and come away with this read of it There was an entire previous movie with him in it before where he didn't end up killing everyone through mistakes. Just FYI.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:37
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Poe was right to take on the dreadnought, imagine if that thing had hyperspaced along with them. Nowhere to go because they'll run you down, no fighters or bombers because Kylo just blew up your docking bay, and now here's a Fleet Killer to finish you off. The fact that he was right about that emboldens him and he becomes convinced that his plan for Finn to go to a casino and find a hacker will be right too
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Jan 24, 2020 22:37
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2house2fly posted:He's a cocky hotshot, she's middle management promoted to CEO and painfully aware of how bad their situation is and how ill-equipped she is to manage it. They're both at fault, basically Except Holdo is equipped to manage it. She created a plan that was perfectly workable, and in a situation where operational secrecy would be vital (they still didn't know how the First Order was tracking them through hyperspace and they have a Force user on their side who's known for just pulling thoughts of of your mind during interrogation) she had absolutely no reason to tell anything to the hotshot pilot who violated the chain of command, stormed the bridge, and demanded to know all of her secrets. It was like if a sergeant stormed into General Patton's tent and demanded to see all of his upcoming battle plans before he would do anything, then trying to start a mutiny when Patton told him to gently caress off. The only mistake Holdo made was allowing Poe to still roam the ship after that instead of stripping him of everything and throwing him in the brig.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:39
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chitoryu12 posted:Is it really any different from The Empire Strikes Back, though? That movie ends with serious losses and a cliffhanger, but also with a glimmer of hope in the end that they'll return to save the day in the final movie. It gives you just enough triumphant music and glances into the distance to tell you that they're going to make a plan and come back stronger. And that's exactly what we get in the next movie, complete with Luke showing up having learned his lessons and becoming a more mature character who still has a little development left before he can become the full hero that he is. In ESB the rebel base gets discovered, but they almost all make it out, and we're shown a piece of the promised Rebel fleet at the end. It's a tactical defeat, but not a strategic one. The real loss in the movie is merely personal. TLJ, on the other hand, makes a point of stamping out all of the Resistance's resources, having their allies turn their backs, and implying the First Order is overwhelmingly popular—they conquered the whole galaxy in a matter of days and no one wants to associate with Leia anymore. In spite of this, Leia stands there at the end declaring that this situation is good and right: we are back in the proper order of things, the way Star War is meant to be.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:39
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Zoran posted:In spite of this, Leia stands there at the end declaring that this situation is good and right: we are back in the proper order of things, the way Star War is meant to be. she is the image of hope where there is none, she's not happy about their current situation
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Jan 24, 2020 22:41
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Zoran posted:In ESB the rebel base gets discovered, but they almost all make it out, and we're shown a piece of the promised Rebel fleet at the end. It's a tactical defeat, but not a strategic one. The real loss in the movie is merely personal. That's an incredibly weird take. It's pretty clearly her saying that they have everything they need to rebuild and return to fighting. And it never says the First Order is "popular", just that the rich and connected are gleefully taking advantage of the war to profit and most of the galaxy doesn't actually have the courage to fly into a suicide mission just to help a failing resistance movement.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:42
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chitoryu12 posted:Except Holdo is equipped to manage it. She created a plan that was perfectly workable, and in a situation where operational secrecy would be vital (they still didn't know how the First Order was tracking them through hyperspace and they have a Force user on their side who's known for just pulling thoughts of of your mind during interrogation) she had absolutely no reason to tell anything to the hotshot pilot who violated the chain of command, stormed the bridge, and demanded to know all of her secrets. It was like if a sergeant stormed into General Patton's tent and demanded to see all of his upcoming battle plans before he would do anything, then trying to start a mutiny when Patton told him to gently caress off. Except none of that is presented to us. That whole bit in the movie is spent showing US, the viewer, that she has no plan and that Poe is right. We've heard of Patton and know he did some big general things before. Holdo is just unveiled to us with no prior knowledge and in a way that suggests maybe they're not as good as their non-existant reputation that is being expositioned to us right now is.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:43
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chitoryu12 posted:Except Holdo is equipped to manage it. She created a plan that was perfectly workable, and in a situation where operational secrecy would be vital (they still didn't know how the First Order was tracking them through hyperspace and they have a Force user on their side who's known for just pulling thoughts of of your mind during interrogation) she had absolutely no reason to tell anything to the hotshot pilot who violated the chain of command, stormed the bridge, and demanded to know all of her secrets. It was like if a sergeant stormed into General Patton's tent and demanded to see all of his upcoming battle plans before he would do anything, then trying to start a mutiny when Patton told him to gently caress off. Yeah no one's gonna go visit the most popular and celebrated ace pilot of the rebellion in the brig and listen to him complain about how the Admiral is benching him when they are literally all about to die. Punishing him for disobeying orders is correct; Shutting him and everyone else out so badly that they think you have no plan to deal with the mortal threat bearing down on you isn't. Disciplinary action can wait until you aren't all literally about to loving die any second.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:45
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2house2fly posted:Poe was right to take on the dreadnought, imagine if that thing had hyperspaced along with them. Nowhere to go because they'll run you down, no fighters or bombers because Kylo just blew up your docking bay, and now here's a Fleet Killer to finish you off. The fact that he was right about that emboldens him and he becomes convinced that his plan for Finn to go to a casino and find a hacker will be right too CainFortea posted:Except none of that is presented to us. That whole bit in the movie is spent showing US, the viewer, that she has no plan and that Poe is right.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:46
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CainFortea posted:Except none of that is presented to us. That whole bit in the movie is spent showing US, the viewer, that she has no plan and that Poe is right. I'm sure you spent an extensive amount of time after ROTJ questioning whether Admiral Ackbar had sufficient qualifications to be granted his rank and was, in fact, allowed to be in the chair.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:48
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you can argue about the execution of it, cause i think there were quite a few execution problems in tlj, but the narrative intent of the poe/holdo conflict seemed pretty obvious to me. hell, she is even a lady covered in wacky lady colors that guys are inherently gonna find absurd.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:49
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the tone of TLJ's ending is just jarringly positive. it's showing you the darkest hour with rays of hope ESB style but with a full on optimistic tone & hilarious indifference to all the deados who didn't get names. many of whom our heroes killed.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:50
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Basically, this:No Mods No Masters posted:For good or for ill, there has been no clearer illustration of the psychology of the hillary man put to film than star wars 8. It may be a dire film but in this respect it is unquestionably a significant historical artifact No Mods No Masters posted:Leia's blithe, smug assertion that she, someone who can barely walk or speak, has everything she needs to restore herself to power- after ~99.99% of her forces have been killed and the entire galaxy has been conquered by nazis- will remain the most perfect and crystalline expression of a particular political moment The ethos of TLJ is ultimately that we should see the rot underpinning the surface conflict—the problems of child slavery, war profiteering, and the like that were even tolerated under the New Republic—and then conclude: never mind that, the struggle between two paramilitary factions that no one seems to care too much about is in fact the most important thing in the world. It's tepid post-Cold-War liberalism in film form, making token gestures at real issues while offering nothing and glorifying constant retreat in the face of fascism.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:50
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chitoryu12 posted:I'm sure you spent an extensive amount of time after ROTJ questioning whether Admiral Ackbar had sufficient qualifications to be granted his rank and was, in fact, allowed to be in the chair. The only conflict Ackbar had with anyone was when he wanted to retreat and Lando convincing him to give the ground crew more time. It wasn't some kind of Teachable Moment For The Protagonist or some such. cams posted:you can argue about the execution of it, cause i think there were quite a few execution problems in tlj, but the narrative intent of the poe/holdo conflict seemed pretty obvious to me. hell, she is even a lady covered in wacky lady colors that guys are inherently gonna find absurd. You SAY we can argue the execution of it, but when we do you insist anyone who disagrees with you is sexist so I'm going to take this statement as false.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:51
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cams posted:poe's decision is only somewhat justified in the end (to not make him seem like a COMPLETE and utter fuckup) due to information they do not have at the time, which is that the bad guys have a way of tracking the ship. his decision was wrong and cost lives/ships. Yes, exactly, after he sacrificed a bunch of ships and pilots it turned out that it was for the best. He was retroactively proved right, which causes him to think that the next dumbass thing he does will be right too
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Jan 24, 2020 22:52
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2house2fly posted:Yes, exactly, after he sacrificed a bunch of ships and pilots it turned out that it was for the best. He was retroactively proved right, which causes him to think that the next dumbass thing he does will be right too
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Jan 24, 2020 22:53
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Yeah I'm not gonna argue most hate of Holdo isn't because she has pink hair and is a woman, that's fact. However, I think if you flip Poe and Holdo's genders a lot of Holdo Did Nothing Wrong Krew would suddenly be on Poe's side instead. Keeping your dudes in the dark in a situation like this is a bad call regardless of the irl social context of men not taking women in leadership positions seriously and thinking that they know better than them because of their gender, and the mutiny in TLJ would have happened regardless if Holdo was a man.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:54
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He learns he was retroactively right when the First Order warps in and ambushes them, before Holdo is put in charge.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:55
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cams posted:poe's decision is only somewhat justified in the end (to not make him seem like a COMPLETE and utter fuckup) due to information they do not have at the time, which is that the bad guys have a way of tracking the ship. his decision was wrong and cost lives/ships. He even knew that too! The whole reason the plot happens is because they jump to hyperspace, start calming down, and suddenly all the First Order ships appear right behind them and start shooting again. They immediately realize that the First Order has some way of tracking them and they have no way of knowing. It could be a beacon planted on the ship, it could be a device on the dreadnought, it could be a spy feeding them information so they can start prepping their next jump before the Resistance fleet has even finished entering coordinates. But Poe thinks he's the main character even in-universe and that he's the only one with the guts and gumption to do everything that needs to be done, and he's very shocked to find out that he was actually very wrong. CainFortea posted:The only conflict Ackbar had with anyone was when he wanted to retreat and Lando convincing him to give the ground crew more time. You got fooled because you thought that this was going to play out as a formula and that whoever the movie shows in a sympathetic manner has to be the one who gets proven right in the end. Rian Johnson subverted expectations by playing on the belief in formulaic writing and then showing realistic consequences and mistakes. That was your own Teachable Moment.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:55
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chitoryu12 posted:You got fooled because you thought that this was going to play out as a formula and that whoever the movie shows in a sympathetic manner has to be the one who gets proven right in the end. Rian Johnson subverted expectations by playing on the belief in formulaic writing and then showing realistic consequences and mistakes. That was your own Teachable Moment. Yes, I understand it's a subversion, my point is that it's a really poorly done one. Like, a good subverted trope is one presented and resolved fast enough for it to be your gut response to a thing that proves to be wrong. Not over an hour with the director building a case brick by brick why the protagonist is right. It's like watching a mystery but none of the clues revealed at the very end were ever in the movie before hand. It's just badly done.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:58
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Chillgamesh posted:Yeah I'm not gonna argue most hate of Holdo is because she has pink hair and is a woman, but I think if you flip Poe and Holdo's genders a lot of Holdo Did Nothing Wrong Krew would suddenly be on Poe's side instead. Keeping your dudes in the dark in a situation like this is a bad call regardless of the irl social context of men not taking women in leadership positions seriously and thinking that they know better than them because of their gender, and the mutiny in TLJ would have happened if regardless if Holdo was a man. a more viable argument is that, if she were a more experienced leader, holdo should have realized how cocksure and arrogant poe was and either a) sat him down and explained to him that she is in fact capable and has a plan and he should shut the gently caress up or b) strapped him with irons and thrown him in the brig, sure.
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Jan 24, 2020 22:59
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Chillgamesh posted:Yeah I'm not gonna argue most hate of Holdo isn't because she has pink hair and is a woman, that's fact. However, I think if you flip Poe and Holdo's genders a lot of Holdo Did Nothing Wrong Krew would suddenly be on Poe's side instead. Keeping your dudes in the dark in a situation like this is a bad call regardless of the irl social context of men not taking women in leadership positions seriously and thinking that they know better than them because of their gender, and the mutiny in TLJ would have happened regardless if Holdo was a man. "Keeping people in the dark" is the first tenet of operational secrecy. If you're making a secret plan, you don't tell the aggressive pilot who can't understand strategy beyond "Blow poo poo up" everything that you're doing because he's unpredictable. Your reveal could convince him that you know what you're doing and make him back off and help, or he could decide that your plan is bullshit and gently caress with it because he thinks he knows better. Because, surprise, that's literally the first scene of the movie! He gets orders, decides that he knows better, and engages in a risky operation that causes them to sustain huge losses that they're not in a position to replace. Holdo is completely aware that he's a maverick who needs to be kept on a tight leash.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:00
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CainFortea posted:Not over an hour with the director building a case brick by brick why the protagonist is right.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:00
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it's my opinion that it's a mark of competency in a military commander to learn basic facts about their new command, like the fact that the subordinate officer you’re in conflict with is the protege of the overall commander and he has the personal loyalty of nearly everyone on his ship
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Jan 24, 2020 23:01
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cams posted:this was you incorrectly evaluating what the movie was trying to tell you because it was subverting your expectations hth nah
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Jan 24, 2020 23:02
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cams posted:...i genuinely do not know how you watch the first 20 minutes of the movie and come away with this read of it i am not saying the things he does are good decisions or that he's right, just that he's framed as the sympathetic protagonist of the movie, so it's reasonable for people to sympathize with his actions and motives. TLJ treats this bias in favor of the protagonist as foolish to get the viewer to re-examine their other biases - sexism being the obvious one - and i dunno how i feel about how successful it is in doing that.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:03
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