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Zoran posted:it's my opinion that it's a mark of competency in a military commander to learn basic facts about their new command, like the fact that the subordinate officer you’re in conflict with is the protege of the overall commander and he has the personal loyalty of nearly everyone on his ship
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Jan 24, 2020 23:04
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cams posted:disagree with the genderflip theory and also your general premise. a military leader does not need to go to their troops one by one explaining their plans and decision making out of fear that their troops are going to question their leadership and form a full-scale mutiny. This is exactly what I said she should have done and you called me a sexist for it
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Jan 24, 2020 23:05
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Chuck Buried Treasure posted:This is exactly what I said she should have done and you called me a sexist for it
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Jan 24, 2020 23:07
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Zoran posted:it's my opinion that it's a mark of competency in a military commander to learn basic facts about their new command, like the fact that the subordinate officer you’re in conflict with is the protege of the overall commander and he has the personal loyalty of nearly everyone on his ship And he's also displayed a tendency to mess with your plans because he thinks he's the ace at everything. Poe isn't a genius commander, he's a very skilled tool that you point at the right problems for his skill set. He lacks the maturity and experience to actually be of value in a "bigger picture" sense and is best kept out of it until he learns. As they all discovered, the only thing that actually taught him anything was his plan blowing up horribly in his face. Even having his leader slap and demote him doesn't do anything but make him mad. Cease to Hope posted:i am not saying the things he does are good decisions or that he's right, just that he's framed as the sympathetic protagonist of the movie, so it's reasonable for people to sympathize with his actions and motives. If you go into a movie expecting it to be formulaic and it subverts your expectations by playing on tropes and your own biases in entertainment, you can take it as a learning experience or you can get mad and blame the movie for not being as simple as you wanted it to be.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:07
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cams posted:i mean when i wrote that option i thought it was a funny joke because she absolutely should not have done that because poe is not deserving of special treatment just because the viewer is pre-disposed to prefer his point of view over the female character's You understand these aren't real people right? I'm not sure you do, but heads up. Like, Poe doesn't deserve or not deserve anything, he's just a character.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:09
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chitoryu12 posted:Poe isn't a genius commander, he's a very skilled tool that you point at the right problems for his skill set "And you wonder why I keep a rabid cur in such a position of power..."
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Jan 24, 2020 23:09
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chitoryu12 posted:If you go into a movie expecting it to be formulaic and it subverts your expectations by playing on tropes and your own biases in entertainment, you can take it as a learning experience or you can get mad and blame the movie for not being as simple as you wanted it to be. trying to do a thing isn't the same as actually doing that thing, though i'm not mad at TLJ, it's not the worst movie ever. i just think this part of the movie doesn't work super well, especially with some of the messages later about how you should be skeptical of authority
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Jan 24, 2020 23:11
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cams posted:disagree with the genderflip theory and also your general premise. a military leader does not need to go to their troops one by one explaining their plans and decision making out of fear that their troops are going to question their leadership and form a full-scale mutiny. The difference is this isn't some dudes getting marching orders from above that say "go here and defend this town" when they're kind of short on ammo or whatever, they're all panicking because they've just lost a shitload of resources and most of their command staff. An effective leader in that kind of situation WOULD go and at least talk to their officers directly to make sure that they have their poo poo together, so that "having your poo poo together" trickles all the way down to the rank-and-file. Panic is the number one enemy in such a situation. Holdo hosed up by keeping Poe out of the loop. chitoryu12 posted:"Keeping people in the dark" is the first tenet of operational secrecy. If you're making a secret plan, you don't tell the aggressive pilot who can't understand strategy beyond "Blow poo poo up" everything that you're doing because he's unpredictable. Your reveal could convince him that you know what you're doing and make him back off and help, or he could decide that your plan is bullshit and gently caress with it because he thinks he knows better. Because, surprise, that's literally the first scene of the movie! He gets orders, decides that he knows better, and engages in a risky operation that causes them to sustain huge losses that they're not in a position to replace. Holdo is completely aware that he's a maverick who needs to be kept on a tight leash. He's still popular and still has to be managed. You don't manage someone like that in a situation like what the Rebels are in by ~teaching him a lesson~, that's just going to make him and all the enlisted people that like him panic even harder.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:11
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Chillgamesh posted:He's still popular and still has to be managed. You don't manage someone like that in a situation like what the Rebels are in by ~teaching him a lesson~, that's just going to make him and all the enlisted people that like him panic even harder. Holdo didn't care about any lessons. She was acting like a normal admiral who was presented with an rear end in a top hat who wanted to violate the chain of command and learn all of the secret plans that he wasn't entitled to know, and in fact could have been an active danger for knowing because of several reasons already covered. She just wanted the guy to shut up and stop interfering with everyone else's jobs.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:16
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CainFortea posted:You understand these aren't real people right? I'm not sure you do, but heads up. Like, Poe doesn't deserve or not deserve anything, he's just a character. Chillgamesh posted:The difference is this isn't some dudes getting marching orders from above that say "go here and defend this town" when they're kind of short on ammo or whatever, they're all panicking because they've just lost a shitload of resources and most of their command staff. An effective leader in that kind of situation WOULD go and at least talk to their officers directly to make sure that they have their poo poo together, so that "having your poo poo together" trickles all the way down to the rank-and-file. Panic is the number one enemy in such a situation. Holdo hosed up by keeping Poe out of the loop.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:16
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If anything, Holdo was too nice to Poe. Doing what he did (storming the bridge and yelling in the admiral's face to demand information in a threatening manner, then calling her a "traitor" and "coward" in front of everyone because he saw only a small portion of her preparations out of context) normally gets you dragged out by several burly men and throw in a cell where you can't talk to anybody.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:20
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yeah her biggest mistake was not throwin dude in the brig
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Jan 24, 2020 23:22
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cams posted:i agree that holdo hosed up by not realizing poe is a headstrong dumbshit who believes he is smarter than the pink haired lady and is gonna do a mutiny We agree 100% then, lol. Poe is absolutely out of line and deserves a serious reprimand for what he did. It's just that doing it RIGHT THEN, RIGHT THERE was not a good choice. chitoryu12 posted:Holdo didn't care about any lessons. She was acting like a normal admiral who was presented with an rear end in a top hat who wanted to violate the chain of command and learn all of the secret plans that he wasn't entitled to know, and in fact could have been an active danger for knowing because of several reasons already covered. She just wanted the guy to shut up and stop interfering with everyone else's jobs. It's a commander's job to keep everyone level headed and saying "you have to do what i say because its the rules" with your remaining time to live being visible as a fuel meter is not gonna swing that.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:23
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cams posted:...i genuinely do not understand the point you're trying to make. people, including you, are making value statements on the judgments of his actions, so... i dunno man you lost me with this tantrum At first I thought you were just trollin, then I took you seriously, but now i've circled back because we've now hit the "lol u mad" stage.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:23
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CainFortea posted:At first I thought you were just trollin, then I took you seriously, but now i've circled back because we've now hit the "lol u mad" stage. if there was a point to your weird "HE'S NOT REAL" rant then i'm around to hear it, got another hour and a half til i'm off the clock.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:26
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Chillgamesh posted:We agree 100% then, lol. Poe is absolutely out of line and deserves a serious reprimand for what he did. It's just that doing it RIGHT THEN, RIGHT THERE was not a good choice. i should admit my personal bias that comes into my viewing of the film, which is that i love laura dern and think she's great so i am more predisposed to be on her side.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:29
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Chillgamesh posted:It's a commander's job to keep everyone level headed and saying "you have to do what i say because its the rules" with your remaining time to live being visible as a fuel meter is not gonna swing that. It's not her responsibility to coddle him. If you tell a pilot "I have a plan, stop bothering me when I'm doing my job" and he flips his lid in front of everyone, that's his fault. Nobody was even displaying any kind of distrust of Holdo or refusal to follow her plans until Poe went into a frenzy and began whipping them up into mutiny. It was just him who had this kind of problem.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:31
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chitoryu12 posted:It's not her responsibility to coddle him. If you tell a pilot "I have a plan, stop bothering me when I'm doing my job" and he flips his lid in front of everyone, that's his fault. Nobody was even displaying any kind of distrust of Holdo or refusal to follow her plans until Poe went into a frenzy and began whipping them up into mutiny. It was just him who had this kind of problem. Did she actually say this though because to my memory she did not, and the whole crux of the issue for me is that as far as anyone else knew she did not have a plan, and she refused to tell anyone that she did. If she actually said that and I like zoned out during that part then I don’t have an issue with it
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Jan 24, 2020 23:36
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cams posted:yeah then we're square, i thought you were more on the "poe's mutiny was justified" side Like I said, I like the movie. I also like Holdo and Rose, and I haven't seen ROS and I don't think I will because I heard how loving dirty it did Rose, which after what happened to Kelly Marie Tran I find inexcusable. I'm just saying Holdo isn't faultless. THAT BEING SAID I 100% agree with you entirely that the "whoa is that admiral holdo, what a badass" minor puffing-up she gets from Leia and others at the start of the movie to establish her as a respected character certainly would have been uncritically accepted by most of the guys bitching about Holdo if she were a conventionally masculine male character instead. chitoryu12 posted:It's not her responsibility to coddle him. If you tell a pilot "I have a plan, stop bothering me when I'm doing my job" and he flips his lid in front of everyone, that's his fault. Nobody was even displaying any kind of distrust of Holdo or refusal to follow her plans until Poe went into a frenzy and began whipping them up into mutiny. It was just him who had this kind of problem. Yeah Poe is in the wrong in this situation. He's also gone and mutinied, which as commander is the number one thing you were supposed to keep the guys under your command from doing. good job commander
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Jan 24, 2020 23:40
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Chillgamesh posted:
It's a pretty clear indicator of failure of leadership if you have a mutiny.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:42
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Chuck Buried Treasure posted:Did she actually say this though because to my memory she did not, and the whole crux of the issue for me is that as far as anyone else knew she did not have a plan, and she refused to tell anyone that she did. If she actually said that and I like zoned out during that part then I don’t have an issue with it There's 3 moments where Poe confronts Holdo: 1. Immediately after she's put in command due to Leia's wounds, Poe confronts her within seconds to demand a plan. She doesn't have a plan yet because this literally just happened, but she recognizes that Poe isn't going to be of any use in formulating one because he doesn't really contribute much to tactical discussions that isn't "Let's shoot them." 2. Poe shows up again after he's sent Finn and Rose to Canto Bight and begins arguing with her, trying to learn about what she's doing. She reminds him of what Leia said about how "Hope is like the sun: if you only believe it when you see it you'll never make it through the night," albeit not as kindly as she puts it, to basically tell him to trust her. Poe heads to the hangar, sees some transports getting fueled up, and immediately runs back to the bridge to accuse her of being a traitor planning to flee the fleet and leave them all to die. Maybe she would have been willing to let him in on a little something had Poe not been acting like he was through the whole movie, but he's spent all of their time together disobeying orders and throwing tantrums. 3. Poe comes back and tells Holdo about his plan. Holdo, realizing that Poe just royally hosed everything up, tries to rush the evacuation. Poe mistakes this for her running away and gets a few people to mutiny and hold her at gunpoint until Leia wakes up and stuns him. At no point did anyone else seem to have any issues with their orders until Poe did his "I'm the protagonist!" bullshit. The evacuation was going to go off without a hitch because everyone else just did what they were supposed to do: followed orders and got everything ready even though they didn't know the full extent of why they were doing it.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:47
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these judgements would be easier if we had basic context for how the resistance operates, how they got into that dumb situation, who tf Holdo is and the relationships between these characters does it make sense for Poe to be putting admirals on blast? i thought he was just a pilot guy (with some link to Leia?). v I didn't think people were still doing it seriously. especially not wrt this movie lmao. Saint Drogo fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Jan 24, 2020 |
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Jan 24, 2020 23:48
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everyone please stop saying subverted expectations 
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Jan 24, 2020 23:50
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So, does TROS just totally poo poo all over the change Poe had after this "teachable moment and subverted expectation"? I'm going to assume yes given the context of everything else i've heard about this movie.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:53
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chitoryu12 posted:There's 3 moments where Poe confronts Holdo: So your whole argument was that she couldn't tell Poe about her plan because it would be bad opsec but she seems to have put together an escape plan and executed it then not told one of the most popular and highest ranking officers still alive about it, when that officer is currently panicking precisely because he thinks she doesn't have an escape plan. ??????????? Saint Drogo posted:these judgements would be easier if we had basic context for how the resistance operates, how they got into that dumb situation, who tf Holdo is and the relationships between these characters Yeah Poe is high on his own farts since he blew up Starkiller Base and racks up sick killstreaks all the time, he is a good tactical leader and pilot and very popular because of it, but he has no strategic vision. CainFortea posted:So, does TROS just totally poo poo all over the change Poe had after this "teachable moment and subverted expectation"? I'm going to assume yes given the context of everything else i've heard about this movie. I haven't seen it either but I'm also pretty sure the answer is yes given what my friend told me about it
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Jan 24, 2020 23:54
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Saint Drogo posted:these judgements would be easier if we had basic context for how the resistance operates, how they got into that dumb situation, who tf Holdo is and the relationships between these characters yeah this comes back to TLJ's worst flaw (which is 100 times worse in TROS): it is just overstuffed with poo poo going on. there's no time to establish a normal for poe to deviate from CainFortea posted:So, does TROS just totally poo poo all over the change Poe had after this "teachable moment and subverted expectation"? I'm going to assume yes given the context of everything else i've heard about this movie. oh yeah he is just han solo in TROS, any of his previous characterization beyond being friends with finn might as well have never happened
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Jan 25, 2020 00:05
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poe's entire arc in TROS is losing hope that their friends are gonna show up for the big space battle, then they show up for the big space battle and they win. also, he was a drug smuggler.
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Jan 25, 2020 00:09
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CainFortea posted:So, does TROS just totally poo poo all over the change Poe had after this "teachable moment and subverted expectation"? I'm going to assume yes given the context of everything else i've heard about this movie. He's one of the Resistance leaders(are they the Rebellion still? I forget?) And he asks Lando how he managed to be a rebel leader, Lando says you gotta keep your peeps about you, and Poe promotes(?) Finn to admiral
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Jan 25, 2020 00:16
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chitoryu12 posted:If anything, Holdo was too nice to Poe. Doing what he did (storming the bridge and yelling in the admiral's face to demand information in a threatening manner, then calling her a "traitor" and "coward" in front of everyone because he saw only a small portion of her preparations out of context) normally gets you dragged out by several burly men and throw in a cell where you can't talk to anybody. yeah, literally a capital crime in just about any wartime military
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Jan 25, 2020 00:22
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Chillgamesh posted:So your whole argument was that she couldn't tell Poe about her plan because it would be bad opsec but she seems to have put together an escape plan and executed it then not told one of the most popular and highest ranking officers still alive about it, when that officer is currently panicking precisely because he thinks she doesn't have an escape plan. ??????????? The only real solution to this argument is "You're right, Poe should be brigged." Arguments about popularity are for disputes over decisions between relative equals, not for opsec in a tense environment where the person in charge has to make and execute a plan in an extremely limited amount of time. Telling Poe anything is about as risky as not telling him, because he's enough of a wild card with enough ego that he could do just about anything depending on whether he thinks you're right or wrong. The only real mistake Holdo made was allowing him any kind of freedom to do anything after he acted in such an insubordinate manner, though you could argue that was her acknowledgement of his "popularity". Perhaps she agreed with you and chose to avoid openly punishing him out of fear of mutiny. And again, nobody else really had a problem working with her! Her evacuation almost went off perfectly fine because everyone else was given their orders and went "Yes ma'am" and got it ready. It only nearly failed because of one guy working actively against his commander.
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Jan 25, 2020 00:57
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chitoryu12 posted:The only real solution to this argument is "You're right, Poe should be brigged." Arguments about popularity are for disputes over decisions between relative equals, not for opsec in a tense environment where the person in charge has to make and execute a plan in an extremely limited amount of time. Telling Poe anything is about as risky as not telling him, because he's enough of a wild card with enough ego that he could do just about anything depending on whether he thinks you're right or wrong. The only real mistake Holdo made was allowing him any kind of freedom to do anything after he acted in such an insubordinate manner, though you could argue that was her acknowledgement of his "popularity". Perhaps she agreed with you and chose to avoid openly punishing him out of fear of mutiny. this seems to run up uncomfortably against the theme that you should mistrust people in power, elsewhere in the film, though
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Jan 25, 2020 00:59
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chitoryu12 posted:The only real solution to this argument is "You're right, Poe should be brigged." Arguments about popularity are for disputes over decisions between relative equals This is where clarity might be useful, because we don't know that they're not close in the hierarchy. For all we know he's the 2nd ranking member on that whole ship (who wasn't in a coma). It's also heavily implied that he's one of Leia's confidants and possibly being groomed for greater command. Edit: I just remembered he got demoted to Captain right at the start. quote:It only nearly failed because of one guy working actively against his commander. Well, and a bunch of other people. CainFortea fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Jan 25, 2020 |
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Jan 25, 2020 01:03
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Cease to Hope posted:this seems to run up uncomfortably against the theme that you should mistrust people in power, elsewhere in the film, though That and "you should trust people in power" is an uncomfortable theme in and of itself
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Jan 25, 2020 01:08
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2house2fly posted:That and "you should trust people in power" is an uncomfortable theme in and of itself and a weird loving one for a star war in particular
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Jan 25, 2020 01:11
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Holdo badly needed to be established in TFA or just merged with Leia for this drama to work. the audience actually has opinions & investment in Poe, Holdo has nothing but Laura Dern for us to care about.
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Jan 25, 2020 01:11
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POE: What kind of plan do you have? HOLDO: A good plan. POE: Nobody has a good plan. HOLDO: Secretly evacuate in the transports and hide in the abandoned rebel base on Crait. POE: OK, that is pretty much a good plan.
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Jan 25, 2020 01:14
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Cease to Hope posted:this seems to run up uncomfortably against the theme that you should mistrust people in power, elsewhere in the film, though Do you mean Canto Bight? That's about how you shouldn't trust the rich, or anyone who's only after money and power at the expense of all else. There's nothing wrong with an organization having a hierarchy and chain of command to keep things running smoothly.
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Jan 25, 2020 01:15
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chitoryu12 posted:Do you mean Canto Bight? That's about how you shouldn't trust the rich, or anyone who's only after money and power at the expense of all else. There's nothing wrong with an organization having a hierarchy and chain of command to keep things running smoothly. the prequels have exactly one coherent moral and they aren't subtle about it
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Jan 25, 2020 01:17
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Cease to Hope posted:the prequels have exactly one coherent moral and they aren't subtle about it You specifically said "elsewhere in the film."
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Jan 25, 2020 01:18
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Clearly in a cinematic universe where every single problem was caused by blind faith in authority, "don't have blind faith in authority" is def not a stance anyone can take.
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Jan 25, 2020 01:19
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