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My problem with these serialized prestige TV shows is that i want to watch one episode of Star Trek and smile and be happy not 10 hours of bad movie with 4 extraneous plots to have something to tweet about.
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Jan 27, 2020 15:33
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Bleh, sucks to hear they’re beefing Picard, but I’m not that surprised. The last good Star Trek was, what, Deep Space Nine; and even that already had the seeds of the properties destruction in it via Section 31, an invention that asks the hard hitting edgelord question: what if not even a fictional utopian setting built around showing what we could become if we placed democracy and cooperation as our highest values is actually bad ?
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Jan 27, 2020 19:24
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gradenko_2000 posted:was the serialization of plotlines a good or bad thing? I seem to recall a big part of the criticism of Voyager was that each episode was far too self-contained, so now we have overarching stories and that's also not good either? enterprise hit its sweet spot in the fourth season where every episode was a two or three parter so they had room to breathe on more complex subjects which wasnt something trek had ever done before outside of event episodes and the new conflicts tended to be indirect consequences of earlier ones creating a fairly fluid continuity i doubt any of the people involved in discovery or picard actually remember this because they seem to be operating off of extremely halfassed memories of how the next generation worked and consigning all the other series to the memory hole
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Jan 27, 2020 23:10
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A Gnarlacious Bro posted:Star Trek Fox News smeared hero troop picard, and now it's up to him to solve the refugee problem and the android genocide. how the hell do you miss Star Fox News
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Jan 27, 2020 23:21
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mysterious frankie posted:Bleh, sucks to hear they’re beefing Picard, but I’m not that surprised. The last good Star Trek was, what, Deep Space Nine; and even that already had the seeds of the properties destruction in it via Section 31, an invention that asks the hard hitting edgelord question: what if not even a fictional utopian setting built around showing what we could become if we placed democracy and cooperation as our highest values is actually bad ? Yeah, section 31 is really hosed up exactly like you say. A real betrayal of the original vision turning the federation and starfleet from an outwardly facing entity to an ouroboros and that problem plagues the series to this day one of the things that really made TOS, TAS and the first 2 seasons of TNG {which I love[the first 2 seasons of TNG get a lot of poo poo and season one is pretty bad but it's weird so even when it's awful it is interesting. Season 2 is good.]) so memorable is Gene Roddenberry's insistence on portraying behavior that is alienating to the general sensibilities of the viewing audience. a few genuinely socially transgressive things happen on TOS and it was pretty bombastic and heavy handed in using the utopia of the future to klobber the people of the present for being dumbfucks and racists and prudes. like in the last episode of season one of TNG, the Neutral Zone, the crew finds 4 people from the 80s in pods and unfreezes them and are dumbfounded by their short sightedness. The capitalist gordon gekko guy gets poo poo on pretty hard and it is satisfying. Anyway, in this episode, Crusher says something to the effect of "people in the 20th century actually feared death" like that is the most ridiculous thing possible. There is supposed to be a giant cultural gulf between us and them and that is important for the show. After roddenberry died this emphasis on being alienating and bizarre was significantly diminished gradenko_2000 posted:was the serialization of plotlines a good or bad thing? I seem to recall a big part of the criticism of Voyager was that each episode was far too self-contained, so now we have overarching stories and that's also not good either? The expanse is a really good serialized show, so it isn't just that Discovery sucks for a whole universe of reasons
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Jan 28, 2020 02:26
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Over Easy posted:Yeah, section 31 is really hosed up exactly like you say. A real betrayal of the original vision turning the federation and starfleet from an outwardly facing entity to an ouroboros and that problem plagues the series to this day There's a pretty substantial difference between the way DS9 treats Section 31 and the way Discovery does though, which is that all the main characters in DS9 are horrified by its existence and want to root it out of the Federation, and it's portrayed as an organization leftover from an earlier, less enlightened time in human history that's just been so good at hiding itself and justifying its existence to its own members, that the current leaders of the Federation, with notable exceptions like Sisko's admiral friend, barely even know it exists. The DS9 heroes want to expose it or destroy it or undermine it or somehow get rid of it because to them it threatens everything the Federation stands for. In Discovery they're like "oh this secret organization exists and basically runs the entire Federation and has an all-powerful AI that can hack any starship and they have their own secret fleet that has infinity ships while Starfleet has none and now its second in command is an evil tyrant from an alternate dimension, okay cool" and then they just keep doing what they're doing, and in the end they team up with Section 31 to fight a big space battle because hey, why not. There's a complete lack of understanding about how Section 31's existence and operations contradict the ideals and institutions of the Federation, both by the writers and by the characters, and as a result they're willing to make Section 31 both way more prominent in its position in the Federation and way less shocking to the characters.
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Jan 28, 2020 02:40
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THis never would have happened if the soviet union hadn't fallen
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Jan 28, 2020 02:54
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Eox posted:how the hell do you miss Star Fox News I’m stupid
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Jan 28, 2020 02:59
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vyelkin posted:There's a pretty substantial difference between the way DS9 treats Section 31 and the way Discovery does though, which is that all the main characters in DS9 are horrified by its existence and want to root it out of the Federation, and it's portrayed as an organization leftover from an earlier, less enlightened time in human history that's just been so good at hiding itself and justifying its existence to its own members, that the current leaders of the Federation, with notable exceptions like Sisko's admiral friend, barely even know it exists. The DS9 heroes want to expose it or destroy it or undermine it or somehow get rid of it because to them it threatens everything the Federation stands for. was gonna type something up earlier but this is way better than what i tried. exactly - in ds9, every starfleet officer is horrified by section 31 and the plot arc is to expose them and destroy the organization, even though they are in the middle of an existential war where such an organization could be more "justiable". putting mirror universe space hitler in charge and being accepting of that is just so loving stupid god discovery is stupid stupid stupid fuckk that show
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Jan 28, 2020 03:17
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i cannot imagine how the new trek shows could have been handled worse
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Jan 28, 2020 03:19
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yeah the key difference is the ds9 crew says "gently caress no" to section 31 in an existential crisis while discovery (from what I read dear god that show looks awful) and - let's not forget - enterprise both say "yeah it's cool." DS9 isn't grimdark because while it critiques the utopia that is the federation, it ultimately reaffirms it. The ending of the "paradise lost" 2 parter is the characters rejecting fear, suspicion, and paranoia (because it's what the Founders want).
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Jan 28, 2020 03:32
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in discovery section 31 is just an accepted fact of life. no one likes the fact that they're around, but no one really challenges it. but the real failure of the show, imo, is that it never shows section 31 doing anything bad. like i guess they send the terran emperor to merc some klingons? that's really it tho. they really tell and don't show, and the story suffers for it because you're never really shown why you shouldn't like them
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Jan 28, 2020 03:36
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If a creator was really hosed up on drugs when they made something do you need to be on the same drugs to truly understand their creation? Maybe at least once?
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Jan 28, 2020 04:42
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Shouldn’t have been there in the first place. While I get what is said about the characters’ response to learning Section 31 existing, the Federation is a model of living that shows where we could get to if we value science, culture, diplomacy and collective action as methods of sowing unprejudiced prosperity. There shouldn’t be a rotten core in there to bring to light; the show already had the idea that the system, good as it is, is ultimately a work in progress baked into it via Starfleet officers- themselves ideal representatives of distilled practical application of Federation principles- often stepping beyond ideals they believe in order to do what’s right in situations where process fails, without losing faith in those ideas. It’s an optimistic view of the future that addresses the issues in present western civ without mirroring them; it’s propaganda and propaganda can’t flinch.
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Jan 28, 2020 05:25
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Ah there you are, you don't have platinum so I can't send you a message. Don't buy it or anything, but is there some other way I can send you a note about something? Temp dummy inbox?
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Jan 28, 2020 06:51
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Honestly seems pretty fitting that the Federation has turned into a complacent fygm galactic power after getting complacent with all of its rivals collapsing and it takes one frustrated old dude who's one of the only people who really remembers when it actually lived up to its ideals to some extent to inspire younger people to make it a better place again And people say Star Trek isn't relevant to modern times
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Jan 28, 2020 07:42
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tv especially prestige poo poo would be better in general if it was less serialised imo. showrunners just arent smart enough to plan out plotlines ahead of time. this is why the sopranos will always be good.
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Jan 28, 2020 13:16
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Honestly seems pretty fitting that the Federation has turned into a complacent fygm galactic power after getting complacent with all of its rivals collapsing and it takes one frustrated old dude who's one of the only people who really remembers when it actually lived up to its ideals to some extent to inspire younger people to make it a better place again isnt star trek post-scarcity? whats there to fygm about
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Jan 28, 2020 13:18
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Farm Frenzy posted:isnt star trek post-scarcity? whats there to fygm about you shouldn't think too hard about the economics of star trek outside the federation. or inside the federation. they love to talk about "trade" with other nations or "mining" etc but they have a magic machine every 20 feet that can create anything they want out of pure energy
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Jan 28, 2020 13:23
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replicators can't make Dilithium (which is ship fuel) or Latinum (for whatever reason)
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Jan 28, 2020 13:29
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Peanut President posted:replicators can't make Dilithium (which is ship fuel) or Latinum (for whatever reason) Latinum's something that became valuable specifically because replicators can't make it.
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Jan 28, 2020 13:36
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Serf posted:you shouldn't think too hard about the economics of star trek outside the federation. or inside the federation. they love to talk about "trade" with other nations or "mining" etc but they have a magic machine every 20 feet that can create anything they want out of pure energy iain m banks wins again
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Jan 28, 2020 13:36
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Peanut President posted:replicators can't make Dilithium (which is ship fuel) or Latinum (for whatever reason) sure but that's bullshit imo. also are we saying that all mining and trade is in the form of dilithium and latinum? why? what does the federation need to trade for? i keep hearing "this is our biggest source of dilithium" a lot so i think its just that the writers don't want to deal with how hard it is to come up with conflict in a post-scarcity world like last night i was watching ds9 and kira was mad about some aliens running some volatile chemical to the cardassians, that they got from a mine. the cardassians have replicators, why do they need to trade for this chemical?
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Jan 28, 2020 13:40
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I agree largely with what people say about DS9 and section 31 but it is absolutely the beginning of the introduction of west wing styled "adults in the room making the tough choices" foreign policy calculus into the star trek universe Voyager builds on this a great deal as it takes a morally agnostic position on Janeway's excesses previously we only saw this variety of political machination from the federation when all those admirals got the brain parasites in that season one TNG arc Egg Moron has issued a correction as of 13:52 on Jan 28, 2020 |
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Jan 28, 2020 13:44
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It seems like the RLM video on Picard is mostly them making poo poo up and getting mad at it.
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Jan 28, 2020 13:48
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my problem with picard was that nothing star trek happened. give me a guy on a spaceship or something drat
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Jan 28, 2020 13:49
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Serf posted:my problem with picard was that nothing star trek happened. give me a guy on a spaceship or something drat yeah poo poo, you'd think that'd be the bare minimum
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Jan 28, 2020 13:52
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Over Easy posted:yeah poo poo, you'd think that'd be the bare minimum It was deliberately named Picard and not Star Trek: Picard because this way they neither promise stars nor trekking, then over provide when robots trek majestically over stairs.
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Jan 28, 2020 13:56
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also the guy playing the romulan at the end of the episode looks like a loving carbon copy of the guy playing spock in discovery. i did a double-take when he showed up and the scene at the end of disco s2 where spock shaves his beard is unintentionally hilarious because that dude looks dumb as poo poo with no beard
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Jan 28, 2020 13:58
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Isn't the trek we take around the star we call the sun the most important star trek of all?
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Jan 28, 2020 14:07
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my contribution to the Star Trek discourse is that it was pretty clear by the end of Discovery season 2 that Section 31 was bad and had overstepped its boundaries, but the lovely part was assuming that, in true liberal fashion, it could be reformed by putting a different person in charge
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Jan 28, 2020 14:13
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It seems like the RLM video on Picard is mostly them making poo poo up and getting mad at it. oh so it's an RLM review
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Jan 28, 2020 16:16
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does the first jj abrams star trek really feature a supernova that will destroy the galaxy
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Jan 28, 2020 16:57
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yes i keep trying to type an explanation but really just 'yes'
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Jan 28, 2020 17:47
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no
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Jan 28, 2020 17:48
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this is the franchise where kirk made friends with the devil and killed like half a dozen gods
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Jan 28, 2020 17:54
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Remember that time that Rom formed a union and this was the whole plot of the episode Remember that time they went to the year 2024 and everything has gone tits-up and they had to fight the cops to put the future back Or that time that Sisko had a flashback to the 50s and then a mental breakdown because it was so loving racist I didn't think the first episode of Picard was that bad but I feel like there are other ways to tell relevant stories then repeatedly telling us the Federation loses its loving mind
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Jan 28, 2020 18:01
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the episode descriptions on netflix for ds9 are absolutely infuriating. its clear that the writer only watched up until the opening credits and based the description on that "bashir has to entertain a group of federation diplomats" *actual episode is about an alien ai puppy that overwhelms the station's systems*
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Jan 28, 2020 18:05
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the worst one of those was “O’Brien takes his family on a picnic.” *O’Brien’s daughter falls into a time portal and comes out a feral 18 year old*
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Jan 28, 2020 18:13
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Serf posted:the episode descriptions on netflix for ds9 are absolutely infuriating. its clear that the writer only watched up until the opening credits and based the description on that That's just the plot device, the real plot is about Bashir getting driven crazy by them while Lwaxana sexually harasses Odo Is funny that every single Federation ambassador we see is ridiculously obnoxious and has to be forcibly prevented from screwing everything up BOGO LOAD posted:the worst one of those was “O’Brien takes his family on a picnic.” I'm pretty sure they're doing this on purpose, it's all the rage. Steven Universe fans have caught on and expect innocuous episode titles to be something significant and vice versa
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Jan 28, 2020 18:25
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