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Endorph posted:I mean like I said, a lot of this stuff legitimately goes back hundreds of years and isn't even Japanese in origin. I'm not kidding about the Shakespeare thing, and if you go back to, say, Dream of the Red Chamber, it's literally written like a modern harem anime. Large cast, the protagonist has multiple women interested in him, all the women fit the tropes you'd see in those kinds of stock anime. daiyu has a sad backstory, stereotypical beauty (though naturally the stereotype was different for ancient chinese people than modern Japanese people), sickly, and she dies tragically and the protag gets real sad about it. and the other main girl he's attracted to the novel goes out of its way to describe as having bigger boobs, lol. im not saying it's like, classical literature therefore free from criticism, just that if you can find a general trend in storytelling you can trace it back pretty much exactly to something from hundreds of years ago. My first post was a bit unfortunate, not only for being wrong, but for centering the discussion around porn. I don't actually care that much if some trope comes from porn or not, while interesting that is not directly related to "badness" (though if something comes from porn, the chances of it being bad are pretty high I'd say). A lot of popular anime (what I would call haremish) is structured in a way that the audience can pick their favourite anime waifu from a cast of characters designed to cater to various popular tastes. Tastes that have been heavily influenced by anime tropes in the first place. The things I have mentioned are tools to create this structure and are themselves neutral. They can be used in different contexts to different effects. Let's take a quick look: - A protagonist that works as a stand-in for the audience is essential. There are various ways to do this, oftentimes he will be kind of awkward and with no strong defining characteristics and ambitions (very different from protagonists in for example sports anime). In general the character is reactive instead of active. -Everything is centered around him, in particular the girls. Usually they do not pursue anybody else romantically even if they are not the main girl of the protagonist (the existence of a main girl is necessary because of the format). -The sad backstories help to make the girls sympathetic and create the illusion of depth. With one sad scene, the girl whose whole character is to be bubbly and fun appears to be more than a bundle of cliches. -Notably, actual romantic involvement is not necessary and even detrimental (up to the end) because it would limit the choices. And so on. Like I said these are tools and different animes will take slightly different approaches but the main purpose remains the same. There are many reasons why I think this is bad storytelling and is bound to create terrible subcultures but I think tackling this honestly would be too much for this post (there are complicated chicken and egg interdependencies and the very large question how media and culture relate to each other). However, note that I don't want to chastize anybody personally for liking this stuff. I can understand the appeal and while I have grown to be pretty allergic to this particular kind of story, I can enjoy other kinds of stories that I think are objectively bad (for example, much of the power fantasy crap works for me on a visceral level). true.spoon fucked around with this message at 12:02 on Jan 31, 2020 |
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Jan 31, 2020 11:47
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https://twitter.com/PhilosophyTube/status/1223228282482712579?s=20
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Jan 31, 2020 14:07
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Captain Invictus posted:There's a thread celebrating Ranma 1/2 in adtrw where, while people say it has not aged particularly well, it also helped a bunch of trans youth start to figure their situations out all those years ago, which is rad. Hah, I've actually been thinking about Ranma 1/2 a bit here lately; it's the first manga I ever read as a teen, so it's always going to have a spot in my heart, and I've been entertaining ideas of what a modern reboot would look like. I'll have to check that thread out. Captain Invictus posted:happosai is still A Problem, though  to both of these.
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Jan 31, 2020 14:08
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If anyone is on the fence about Noah Caldwell Gervais because how videos are four hours long; I legitimately think he is the most erudite, interesting speaker on YouTube. Listen to his videos as a podcast or when you’re winding down in the evening. The dude is an absolute pleasure to listen to.
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Jan 31, 2020 15:37
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Maximilian Dood just did a reaction to the incredible new final fantasy 7 remake trailer. FF7 is his favorite game ever, he replays it as a tradition on stream, square even took notice and invited him to a behind the scenes thing and let him play an unfinished build. His reaction video is adorable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iavVuUz4Kpk Man I hope this game is good. The combat looks great and everything I've heard from people who have played demos is positive, but man, FF7 is an insanely huge game in scope, when they're putting so much detail into it I could also see them simultaneously scaling things down too. Guess we'll see in 69 days
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Jan 31, 2020 15:48
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Calico Heart posted:If anyone is on the fence about Noah Caldwell Gervais because how videos are four hours long; I say this every time he releases a video but I could listen to him talk about anything for any period of time, and his Fallout 2 part series is incredible.
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Jan 31, 2020 15:50
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Captain Invictus posted:Maximilian Dood just did a reaction to the incredible new final fantasy 7 remake trailer. FF7 is his favorite game ever, he replays it as a tradition on stream, square even took notice and invited him to a behind the scenes thing and let him play an unfinished build. His reaction video is adorable The scope is why it's going to be split into multiple games.
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Jan 31, 2020 15:53
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Yeah, I know, I know. I just dread them dropping the ball somehow. But I hope they don't. Seems like they're putting in a bunch of new story stuff too, hope that's decent and doesn't ruin what was there already. Well, at the very least the lip synching and Red XIII look loving phenomenal
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Jan 31, 2020 15:56
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Ehh...
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Jan 31, 2020 16:00
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Captain Invictus posted:Maximilian Dood just did a reaction to the incredible new final fantasy 7 remake trailer. FF7 is his favorite game ever, he replays it as a tradition on stream, square even took notice and invited him to a behind the scenes thing and let him play an unfinished build. His reaction video is adorable I watched his stream of playing MK11 online with Joker last night, and considering how salty he was getting, it was nice to see this was recorded post-stream. If nothing else, he needed something to cheer himself up.
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Jan 31, 2020 16:07
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Calico Heart posted:If anyone is on the fence about Noah Caldwell Gervais because how videos are four hours long; While I think he's very good something about the way he speaks rubs me the wrong way.
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Jan 31, 2020 16:12
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What I really love is when people post about a new video or whatever without saying what the video will be about.
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Jan 31, 2020 16:24
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true.spoon posted:And so on. Like I said these are tools and different animes will take slightly different approaches but the main purpose remains the same. There are many reasons why I think this is bad storytelling and is bound to create terrible subcultures but I think tackling this honestly would be too much for this post (there are complicated chicken and egg interdependencies and the very large question how media and culture relate to each other). However, note that I don't want to chastize anybody personally for liking this stuff. I can understand the appeal and while I have grown to be pretty allergic to this particular kind of story, I can enjoy other kinds of stories that I think are objectively bad (for example, much of the power fantasy crap works for me on a visceral level). I think no one would honestly disagree that a lot of modern harem is kind of lazy but I think some of the points you've listed are interesting to discuss in a larger context. quote:- A protagonist that works as a stand-in for the audience is essential. There are various ways to do this, oftentimes he will be kind of awkward and with no strong defining characteristics and ambitions (very different from protagonists in for example sports anime). In general the character is reactive instead of active. There are a couple that don't do this or don't do this to a degree. But I think its important to keep in mind the role this plays in letting the audience insert themselves as the protagonist. Flipping the genders and looking at Twilight again, it would not have its insane popularity if the majority of teenaged girls who took to the book couldn't see themselves as Bella. Unless you're specifically watching something meant to be seen as a stage play this is a fairly necessary trope though not all works have the audience stand in be the protagonist. What's interesting is going back to older VNs like FSN which have harem-like elements the protagonist is distinctly *not* the audience stand-in in the current sense of the word of being the "everyman" as Shirou's way of thinking is quite out of sync from the get go. While being more of the audience stand-in in the "I have no idea whats going so everyone is going to sit me down and give me a 5 min crash course of The Plot/Setting". quote:-Everything is centered around him, in particular the girls. Usually they do not pursue anybody else romantically even if they are not the main girl of the protagonist (the existence of a main girl is necessary because of the format). Hrm, it's hard to decouple this. You're brushing up against that by the nature of most forms of writing the protagonist in any work is usually also the POV character. I don't know if you mainly see writing as a means to realize a sense of realism or as a means or exploring ideas and concepts; but to my understanding insofar as I mainly lean towards the later its kinda unquestionable that the plot should (a) center around your main character and (b) the main character be somewhat important in the minds or actions of the other characters. Where this becomes bad is when the existence of the main character seems to act as a sort of all encompassing black hole which bends characterizations and actions in various ways. You know that one earlier episode of Reboot where Megabyte shows up for Enzo's birthday party and completely steals the show to flex? This was a funny, you could imagine Megabyte deciding to show up just to troll Bob. There are some animangas though, especially when you factor in like "beach" episodes where for no inexplicible reason the villain shows up to join the fun, or just seems single mindedly obsessed with the protagonist even though there are other things they should be doing. But sometimes you have stuff made by like Studio Shaft where its meant to be more like a play and the other characters are just stand-ins for abstract esoteric subjects and are basically just the ghosts of christmas past, present and future. Or the Devil showing up to Jesus in the desert to tempt him. These aren't characters as people but characters as like jungian symbols and in these cases "bad writing" can actually be intended and be "good writing". quote:-The sad backstories help to make the girls sympathetic and create the illusion of depth. With one sad scene, the girl whose whole character is to be bubbly and fun appears to be more than a bundle of cliches. I'm not sure how to grok this. Insofar as you're specifically talking about highschool anime, and dealing with "characters-as-people", I'm confused about the specific focus on "sad" backstories as sometimes people have a huge amount of weight on their shoulders. Or are dealing with personal poo poo that weighs them down so they gotta put out a upbeat persona as to not make people concerned about them. Maybe they have a sick family member and so on, or are really worried about college, this is all meant to ground the characters with concerns relatable with the audience. I think any "trope" if implemented in a poor or lazy way, is going to be unsatisfactory so I'm not sure what's of interest here. Any show with a large ensemble cast is going to want to try to develop its cast of characters, regardless of its a fighty action show like My Hero Aca or a mystery thriller like Psycho-Pass. To be fair to your point I do think there are examples of shows where the "now lets have an episode to develop this or that character" all come across as checking off boxes from a list and I'm not really any more interested in the characters after it then before. Then also there's culture context of how you have your inner face and your outer face and NEVER BE MIXED. quote:-Notably, actual romantic involvement is not necessary and even detrimental (up to the end) because it would limit the choices. If your approach is realism, this basically makes sense to some extent because the show is just an abstract representation of trying to make up your mind and get your feelings sorted, you don't know who you really like, and you also don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, which results in a lot of indecisiveness which personally I am fairly tired of but there is a logic to this even if its been abused. But also highschool (insofar as your looking at highschool set shows) tends to be this really idealized and looked on by the intended audience with nostalgia; so of course romance is going to be looked at a uh, "romantic" way; of a process of extended courtship to find ~true wuv~. Looking at it as "characters as abstract concepts" you can take the concept to a different but perhaps a logical conclusion where the different romantic interests actually represent different paths in which to take your future. There is a *lot* riding on your choice and the weigh is overwhelming in its seriousness. But the big thing is that specifically looking at harem they're mainly romantic comedies and typically not meant to be serious, so it makes it difficult to write with more realistic expectations and how such relationships should progress. There are some Korean manwhas that I've found interesting because sometimes they have it where the main character when not pursuing someone, that someone not being pursued will drift away to someone else. So I think the first two points are basically kind of "wrong" in that these are at face value integral to how most fiction is written and intended to be received while the other two mostly become an issue when done poorly within a specific subgenre; I'm not exactly sure what combination of these exist as bad writing per se, but I do see how the more droll examples of the genre have the four points as written and don't do anything novel, inventive or interesting with them; but this is also true with their writing overall. I tend to prefer Otomes which just has everything in reverse and it just seems more fun to me that way.
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Jan 31, 2020 16:36
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Captain Invictus posted:Yeah, I know, I know. I just dread them dropping the ball somehow. But I hope they don't. Seems like they're putting in a bunch of new story stuff too, hope that's decent and doesn't ruin what was there already. presumably the only way they'll be dropping the ball is if they end up not selling a billion copies of part one, and they slash the budget, but that seems deeply unlikely. I mean, the story changes could be bad, but they've already got a solid foundation, and square's RPGs have had great combat systems recently imo.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:31
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Wonder how many bad videos we’ll get out of the “here gender doesn’t matter” line?
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Jan 31, 2020 17:38
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Raenir Salazar posted:I think no one would honestly disagree that a lot of modern harem is kind of lazy but I think some of the points you've listed are interesting to discuss in a larger context. lmao
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Jan 31, 2020 17:48
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Terrible Opinions posted:It has variety just like any medium, but is still an industry where there are a lot of problematic commonalities. You can fairly easily say "American films have problems with how they represent Middle Eastern people" and get no pushback except from out and proud chuds, but saying the same about how anime represents trans people or sexualizes children you immediately get shouted down by the anime defense squad. And yes it is not unique in sexualizing children or being bad to trans people but it is distinct from what most non-weeb audiences are used to in regard to that particular brand of shittiness, so it's going to get commented on. In particular see how every single discussion of this poo poo was shouted down in the Berserk thread until the mass bannings, despite Berserk being pretty pedo and all of Miura's later works being REALLY pedo. It's extremely frustrating, especially when you have people insinuating that you are racist or chauvinist for attempting to interrogate broad issues in the text of MANY popular shows in anything but the most charitable tone. Like I read a lot of manga, I watch a bit of anime and I've never understood this urge to justify the bad parts as "just as bad as any other bad thing from the west" before forming an opinion on it.
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Jan 31, 2020 18:00
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Captain Invictus posted:Riverdale is archie, right? Do explain https://twitter.com/charalanahzard/status/1086359352921845761
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Jan 31, 2020 18:28
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I'm looking forward to more of Quinn Curio's Riverdale insights. Since she enjoys the series, it really comes off more as a roast and those are more fun to watch.
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Jan 31, 2020 18:36
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Riverdale is easily one of the best stupid and worthless things on TV
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Jan 31, 2020 18:37
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I finally gave JoJo a gogo and I found it: the one good anime
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Jan 31, 2020 18:54
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Mr Phillby posted:I finally gave JoJo a gogo and I found it: the one good anime Fist of the North Star did it better
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Jan 31, 2020 19:11
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Mr Phillby posted:I finally gave JoJo a gogo and I found it: the one good anime It's no Kirby but it's still pretty good.
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Jan 31, 2020 19:22
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Civvie wasn't the only Youtuber who bought the Blade Runner game's rerelease, Mandalore Gaming has his own thoughts on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPyqInHrHR8
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Jan 31, 2020 19:56
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the football clip does the closest job of trying to capture the spectacular nature of "riverdale" but unless you sit and watch it, you will not know the joy of how shamelessly and perfectly stupid the art of storytelling can be. the first half of this recent season had plots lines about -archie dealing with his dad's unceremonious death after the real-life loss of luke perry. -jughead got accepted to a fancy prep school and is being groomed to be the next writer of a not-hardy boys series that he discovers was his grandfather's stolen IP. the series is heavily implying that betty will kill jughead by the end of the series because... -betty is grappling with being told last season that she has serial killer genes. in the first episode her mother shoots and kills a cult leader who was going to take off in a rocket evel knievel style to escape the FBI. -cheryl blossom, who's twin brother dies in the first season, has dug up his corpse and had it taxidermied so she can keep it in a chapel in her house and talk to it. she learns she ate a triplet brother in the womb and worries that he is haunting her home and does multiple seances with her girlfriend, an ex-gang member. it turns out its just her mother climbing around in the walls to freak her out. -veronica makes rum to piss off her dad
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Jan 31, 2020 19:57
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Spatula City posted:I used to be a lot harder on anime, but I've seen enough good anime to know anime itself isn't inherently bad. it just...can be hard to find good stuff because weebs are inured to the Bad poo poo, and will recommend you things full of the Bad poo poo, without realizing it because it's just background radiation to them. tbh I know a good number of anime fans who were put off by KLK to the point of not wanting to give the director or Trigger in general a chance going forward, even stuff like little witch academia.
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Jan 31, 2020 20:52
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Shinji2015 posted:I watched his stream of playing MK11 online with Joker last night, and considering how salty he was getting, it was nice to see this was recorded post-stream. If nothing else, he needed something to cheer himself up. I put him on while I was working on Gundam models last night. I am not a big stream watcher and it was my first time seeing him streaming, but it was mildly uncomfortable seeing him go from "Hey, this is a cool character! Lets play online!" to "Oh god I remember the poo poo I don't like about this game". There were moments where he was dead silent, as if he was keeping himself from breaking down screaming in frustration. I mean, I hope I am not coming off as I am coming down on the guy but it feels like he would be much more enjoyable if he was playing something he liked. And on the gamer anger scale it could have been so much worse.
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Jan 31, 2020 21:01
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yeah kill la kill is definitely part of the problem
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Jan 31, 2020 21:01
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I heard Big Joel was good but I have trouble watching his videos because I feel like his massive eyeballs are about to pop out of his head at any moment and bounce off the camera. Seriously they must be the size of tennis balls. Creepy, creepy fish/chihuahua eyeballs.
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Jan 31, 2020 21:05
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Motto posted:tbh I know a good number of anime fans who were put off by KLK to the point of not wanting to give the director or Trigger in general a chance going forward, even stuff like little witch academia. hi this is me. i stopped even going to adtrw for a few years because for a time the mod they had was basically just roleplaying the main character of that garbage show. still don't really go in there that much
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Jan 31, 2020 21:23
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Unlucky7 posted:I put him on while I was working on Gundam models last night. I am not a big stream watcher and it was my first time seeing him streaming, but it was mildly uncomfortable seeing him go from "Hey, this is a cool character! Lets play online!" to "Oh god I remember the poo poo I don't like about this game". There were moments where he was dead silent, as if he was keeping himself from breaking down screaming in frustration. Max went through a similar arc with Injustice 2 and DragonBall FighterZ; he gets hyped up about the game, puts a lot of work into it early on, starts to realize that there are things about it he doesn't like (in IJ2's case, it was the lack of a character he liked, the gear system, and how strong zoning characters are; in DBFZ's case, netcode and tracking air dashes), but can't bring himself to give up on just yet. So he cuts back on playing except when DLC characters drop, he spends a few hours grinding the new character in training mode, enjoys that time... then hops online where he quickly remembers why he stopped playing so much. Eventually he'll stop playing altogether. I wouldn't be shocked if he stopped playing MK11 after Spawn drops, unless Spawn drastically changes how MK11 is played. And you're right, it wasn't the worst case of gamer anger ever, but he is very careful about the persona he puts on his stream. If he starts getting that salty on stream, he's probably much angrier than he's letting on.
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Jan 31, 2020 21:23
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New Philosophy Tube video about data gathering and the surveillance state. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCUTX1jurJ4
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Jan 31, 2020 21:43
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Phantasium posted:hi this is me. Wasn't Matoi Ryuko mostly just a shitposter in GBS and C-SPAM anyway?
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Jan 31, 2020 21:46
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idk i wanted nothing to do with it
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Jan 31, 2020 21:47
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He was a byob guy who reached maximum chill by melting down and resigning. He was bad
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Jan 31, 2020 21:50
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matoi was a very good byob poster a few years ago at least
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Jan 31, 2020 21:51
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volts5000 posted:New Philosophy Tube video about data gathering and the surveillance state. Starring: "ominous didgeridoo" Seriously, his best talent seems to be the subtitling of instrumental music. Never watch his videos without them.
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Jan 31, 2020 22:03
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volts5000 posted:New Philosophy Tube video about data gathering and the surveillance state. i was with him right up until he called that poor bouncer a 'mongoloid whelp of a scottish bitch' and a 'jacobite'. man's just doing his job
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Jan 31, 2020 22:24
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New Lindsay Ellis video about Phantom of the Opera and whitewashing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrhrXTDeue0
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Jan 31, 2020 22:34
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watho posted:matoi was a very good byob poster a few years ago at least Matoi ryuko and the curse of the moderatorship
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Feb 1, 2020 00:02
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