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I wouldnt enjoy playing Jinx Draven into 3x black spear every game... you really cant do anything about that card.
No Wave fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Feb 4, 2020 |
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Feb 4, 2020 23:01
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No Wave posted:I wouldnt enjoy playing Jinx Draven into 3x black spear every game... you really cant do anything about that card. You can watch their mana and not play into it at least. But it should really cost 3 mana same as Get Excited.
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Feb 4, 2020 23:12
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"Playing into it" by playing draven, ever.
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Feb 4, 2020 23:15
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No Wave posted:I wouldnt enjoy playing Jinx Draven into 3x black spear every game... you really cant do anything about that card.
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Feb 4, 2020 23:22
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No Wave posted:"Playing into it" by playing draven, ever. No by not killing a unit when they have Black Spear mana available come on friend, I get that SI is strong but at least be sensible here. Also by having more threats than they have Black Spears using Counterfeit Copies on champions. Or by making sure your Draven evolves all in one go using Whirling Death and Chompers to challenge. SI is strong but the reason isn’t Black Spear. It’s Rhasa and Ledros having brutal effects on play/summon for their costs, as well as good stat lines. Anyway I still don’t think the meta is solved yet and people being all doom and gloom is absurd for a beta game that doesn’t even have the full card set yet. But they probably will adjust SI and Ionia anyway given current play rates, even if it isn’t totally necessary for balance Riot know that applying light nerfs/buffs can be good for convincing people to try new stuff instead of accepting their preconceived notions about things.
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Feb 4, 2020 23:22
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Counterfeit copies???? Are you kidding me?
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Feb 4, 2020 23:25
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No Wave posted:Counterfeit copies???? Are you kidding me? Lord_Magmar posted:No by not killing a unit when they have Black Spear mana available come on friend, I get that SI is strong but at least be sensible here. Also by having more threats than they have Black Spears using Counterfeit Copies on champions. Or by making sure your Draven evolves all in one go using Whirling Death and Chompers to challenge. guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Feb 4, 2020 |
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Feb 4, 2020 23:34
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I had no idea counterfeit copies drinx was a thing, I'd totally written it off. Thats crazy.
No Wave fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Feb 4, 2020 |
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Feb 4, 2020 23:37
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I think Ledros rounding up instead of down would be a decent nerf for him. Keeps his effect, keeps him strong, but means he isn't a flat out timer that you can do very little about.
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Feb 4, 2020 23:41
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1stGear posted:I think Ledros rounding up instead of down would be a decent nerf for him. Keeps his effect, keeps him strong, but means he isn't a flat out timer that you can do very little about. He could also stand to lose fearsome or his 8 Power too imo. I deeply suspect though that we’re gonna see more obliterate cards, and Piltover&Zaun seem like a good place to put a targeted removal obliterate.
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Feb 4, 2020 23:44
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1stGear posted:I think Ledros rounding up instead of down would be a decent nerf for him. Keeps his effect, keeps him strong, but means he isn't a flat out timer that you can do very little about.
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Feb 4, 2020 23:48
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1stGear posted:I think Ledros rounding up instead of down would be a decent nerf for him. Keeps his effect, keeps him strong, but means he isn't a flat out timer that you can do very little about. Honestly even if the only thing changed was making it so the effect can't kill from 1, I think people would be surprised how meaningful of a change it would be. Those decks don't tend to run anything else that can kill you from hand as far as I know, so it would create a lot of opportunities to successfully stabilize at 1 HP where your turns are a lot stronger than paying 8 mana for an 8/5. Ledros just creates these checkmate situations at low health where you die if you kill it and you die if you don't (especially because you can't chump block it so it keeps taking out meaningful units) I would also up his cost though probably
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Feb 4, 2020 23:50
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Lord_Magmar posted:I deeply suspect though that we’re gonna see more obliterate cards, and Piltover&Zaun seem like a good place to put a targeted removal obliterate. No Wave posted:I had no idea counterfeit copies drinx was a thing, I'd totally written it off. Thats crazy. No Wave posted:That doesnt go far enough. I dont know what the card is supposed to be for or why the faction with the best early game and best removal and insane tempo swings on 6 and 7 gets a clock card on turn 8. If this card is just supposed to be sweet, keep him as is and move him to 10 mana, if he's actually supposed to serve a gameplay/balance purpose dear lord please explain it to me. guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Feb 4, 2020 |
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Feb 4, 2020 23:52
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At least with Shadow Isles card draw it’s at fast and fizzles if you kill the sac target. Also yeah, Shadow Isles Self Synergy Might just be too strong, which can be hard to calculate and hard to fix without dumpstering their entire identity.
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Feb 4, 2020 23:59
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just dont touch the harrowing
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Feb 5, 2020 00:08
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Lord_Magmar posted:At least with Shadow Isles card draw it’s at fast and fizzles if you kill the sac target. Also yeah, Shadow Isles Self Synergy Might just be too strong, which can be hard to calculate and hard to fix without dumpstering their entire identity.
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Feb 5, 2020 00:53
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Their identity is sacrificing your own units for benefits/power/cost and also gaining benefits from their own units dying. The problem is that unlike say, Piltover & Zaun (which has a similar drawback of discarding), it’s across their entire card pool. Imagine if there were as many gain benefits from discarding cards as there are Last Breath cards and do x when something else dies cards in Shadow Isles. Or if Corrina Veraza was deal 1 damage for every card discarded this game instead of her current overcosted effect for her body. Basically Shadow Isles identity has been applied too broadly and readily available relative to similar identities in other factions, and even the crossover stuff still works with their own primary Identity. The spiders are cheap and have last breath effects or are otherwise useful as sacrifice targets, the ephemerals die on attack letting them force the units dying effect cards. Again compare to Piltover, where the Teemo stuff has no crossover with the discard stuff that has no real crossover with the spells matter stuff beyond surface level connections. That’s why Shadow Isles is currently appearing ahead of the pack, it’s different themes are actually too homogenous. First thing I’d do is bump the cost of all the sacrifice a unit cards. They’re all too cheap for what they do and their drawback doesn’t exist. Same as all the if a unit died this turn cards, maybe not Vile Offerings. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Feb 5, 2020 |
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Feb 5, 2020 01:10
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Getting 7 wins on your expedition token feels so good.
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Feb 5, 2020 01:14
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guts and bolts posted:I like the idea of making mono-faction a playable option, but that isn't really what's happening here. They don't really have "an identity" - they're good at everything. I'm not sure any faction works mono except maybe SI, and that's just because there's too much going on. Riot should have chosen to make them either good at going wide early with Ephemerals or good at closing games out with powerful finishers, but they do both. There should absolutely not be any card draw in the faction at all, at any speed, for any cost, without doing a significant overhaul of what the faction does. Some of their removal should be changed to Slow speed, probably, too. I don't know. I think it depends on how long before the card pool expands - if it's going to be half a year or more, they should probably do some extensive nerfs. Putting "your own deaths matter" in demacia is cool because outside of exactly single combat you can only do things during combat so it really changes things (Vanguard Redeemer and Radiant Guardian are cool cards). Putting "deaths matter" on the token faction that kills their own units basically for free seems like a mistake. In conclusion, nerf vile feast I hate that card (ok they actually can't do that, but vile feast, black spear, and glimpse are all way undercosted compared to other spells in the game). No Wave fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Feb 5, 2020 |
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Feb 5, 2020 02:33
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Lord_Magmar posted:Their identity is sacrificing your own units for benefits/power/cost and also gaining benefits from their own units dying. The problem is that unlike say, Piltover & Zaun (which has a similar drawback of discarding), it’s across their entire card pool. Imagine if there were as many gain benefits from discarding cards as there are Last Breath cards and do x when something else dies cards in Shadow Isles. Or if Corrina Veraza was deal 1 damage for every card discarded this game instead of her current overcosted effect for her body. Let me back up: Shadow Isles has a mechanic, but it doesn't have a singular identity - which is to say a focus on what the faction is supposed to excel at. Piltover & Zaun has the discarding cards to use them gimmick as mechanic, but their identity is closely tied to burn and aggro, with little in the way of true late-game finishers. Demacia has durability (Tough/Elite/Barrier/Regeneration) as their main gimmick, but their identity is comprised of building your board state and overwhelming your opponent with either beef gates or efficient toughies in a swarm, and they lack a lot of true removal options that don't involve battling (Single Combat, Judgment) or jailing a unit behind another unit (Detain). Shadow Isles, on the other hand, has the gimmick of Ephemeral and gaining effects based on units dying, but their actual identity is currently "being good at everything." Consider the following: if you had to rate which faction is the best in traditional categories of what makes deck shells flourish, who is the best at those categories? Drawing cards? P&Z... and Shadow Isles. Aggro? Ionia, Noxus, and Demacia can do it... but Shadow Isles is also top flight. Tempo? Shadow Isles. Late game? Freljord, Demacia... and Shadow Isles. Removal? Shadow Isles. In my opinion, the solution is in pricing and in speed, at least until the cardpool allows other factions to catch up. If they're gonna get all that cool poo poo, they should not also be allowed to do it as battle tricks, so make Absorb Soul, Atrocity, Black Spear, Glimpse Beyond, Grasp of the Undying, and Vengeance all Slow. The Undying is now 4 mana, or just remove the "for each time I've died" modifier so that he gets to be a 3/3 that recurs forever for 3. Shark Chariot goes to 3 mana, Rhasa goes to 8. Ledros is half rounded up instead of down and goes to 4|5. You don't have to do all of these things, but some combination would go a long way toward making them feel more in line with the other factions and would crystalize their identity at the expense of how oppressive they are in every facet of the game. It leaves some decks more or less intact, but I don't think those are long term problems. I don't want to sound like the definitive authority on LoR because I'm not, but I'm decently ranked; anyone else who is has probably run into a Hecarim mono-SI deck that, depending on your deck, doesn't feel like it's even a game. You just lose if they draw a certain way, and that's that. That should not be happening. No Wave posted:Mono Demacia was decent until mono SI became better at everything. (Mono Demacia also had severe weaknesses.) Mono Ionia (splashing for omen hawk and maybe harsh winds?) is also very strong, their allegiance card is just a liability (putting 3 units with less than 3 attack on the board kills you currently) so there's no point. The difference to me is that those aren't really toolbox decks, they do a thing and do that thing a lot. Mono SI doesnt remotely feel mono, it's just a better midrange deck than anything else which is insane. guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Feb 5, 2020 |
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Feb 5, 2020 02:45
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Shark Chariot and undying aren't good/competitive cards. The op cards are the innocent looking ones that make their way into every deck - black spear, vile feast, glimpse, wraithcaller, and two less innocent looking ones, rhasa and ledros. Elise is very strong but she's really cool. Glimpse at slow would do a lot, rhasa HAS to be changed, and that would get you at least 60% the way there. No Wave fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Feb 5, 2020 |
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Feb 5, 2020 02:53
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I actually meant Fresh Offerings, which I think is a good example of a fair dying matters card. As for removing combat tricks, I think that’s an over nerf. Cost increases and fixing the stat lines on some of the out of line followed would be enough. Shark Chariots to 2/1, Ledros losing fear and power or increased cost. Rhasa being dropped from 7/5 so on and so forth. Turning those spells from fast to slow would make them almost unplayable a lot of the time. I’d much rather make them cost one more. Black Spear costing 2 instead of 3 is silly when the P&Z equivalent card costs 3. Glimpse Beyond probably is the only one I would agree should be slow, the rest aren’t any more dangerous than other combat tricks and in a number of cases are worse or with awkward drawbacks. Atrocity too actually, atrocity at slow would be very reasonable.
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Feb 5, 2020 02:56
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Nothing about the current metagame suggests that Shadow Isles is particularly overpowered. It's strong, sure, but just a few days ago y'all were clamoring for an Elusive nerf and now that has next to zero representation at the top of the ladder. Maybe give the game more than a couple weeks to develop before proclaiming that the sky is falling and the whole game is imbalanced.
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Feb 5, 2020 03:00
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Elusive is still very strong and has lots of representation up and down the ladder. Both decks can be too strong at the same time.
No Wave fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Feb 5, 2020 |
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Feb 5, 2020 03:01
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The Shortest Path posted:Nothing about the current metagame suggests that Shadow Isles is particularly overpowered. It's strong, sure, but just a few days ago y'all were clamoring for an Elusive nerf and now that has next to zero representation at the top of the ladder. In all fairness, I was never on board with Elusive being busted because it’s not. But Shadow Isles has been a menace since the very first play test that I was a part of quite a few months ago now. Honestly I was surprised they hit Anivia and not Shadow Isles at the beginning of the open beta and was prepared for SI to come out on top for a few weeks at this point. I don’t think they’re so far ahead that they’re always going to win, but I do think parts of Shadow Isles could be toned down or changed to make it less of a packleader. The real test for me is what happens when the full power Fiora Shen Deck shows up again, because that fucker is nasty for any deck with a low toughness early game, and regularly wins turn 6-7 before any other ender can be dropped.
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Feb 5, 2020 03:05
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Part of Glimpse's power is being both a activator for last breath effects and for denying strike targets or getting free draw after the opponent used spells to kill something. Slow would be a pretty huge nerf, but probably fair.
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Feb 5, 2020 03:08
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:Part of Glimpse's power is being both a activator for last breath effects and for denying strike targets or getting free draw after the opponent used spells to kill something. It would also make people learn that you can kill the glimpse target to deny the draw, which is how you’re supposed to get around it.
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Feb 5, 2020 03:09
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Assuming no quick strike (or whatever it's called in LoR), if creature A had lifesteal and creature B had overwhelm (and enough attack that overwhelm would take place), which takes effect first, lifesteal nexus heal from A or the overwhelm damage from B? Does it matter if A or B are attacking/defending?
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Feb 5, 2020 03:47
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Overwhelm only triggers on attack, so attacking/defending matters. Also I believe they're both calculated at the same time, and a winner isnt' declared inbetween lifesteal or overwhelm taking effect.
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Feb 5, 2020 03:52
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You don't die if the overwhelm would knock you negative if the lifesteal is enough. I'm not sure what happens if you die partway through combat and then lifesteal later, anyone know? I figure you still die but I haven't really wanted to test it.
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Feb 5, 2020 04:00
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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Nigulus Rex posted:Assuming no quick strike (or whatever it's called in LoR), if creature A had lifesteal and creature B had overwhelm (and enough attack that overwhelm would take place), which takes effect first, lifesteal nexus heal from A or the overwhelm damage from B? Does it matter if A or B are attacking/defending? I believe that they happen at the same time, but I am unaware of whether the game accepts the overwhelming damage killing the Nexus before it goes back to positive life. However combat goes left to right and so if you die on the first combat any other combat healing you does not matter. This is also why Darius should always attack in the right hand slot if he’s not upgraded, because he transforms mid combat if you knock them below 10 with earlier attacks.
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Feb 5, 2020 04:01
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No Wave posted:Shark Chariot and undying aren't good/competitive cards. The Shortest Path posted:Nothing about the current metagame suggests that Shadow Isles is particularly overpowered. It's strong, sure, but just a few days ago y'all were clamoring for an Elusive nerf and now that has next to zero representation at the top of the ladder. Like, have you been playing Ranked? Across two accounts in two wildly different brackets I see Shadow Isles in easily 90% of my games, and that isn't hyperbole. That is usually an indicator that something isn't quite right. Ra Ra Rasputin posted:Part of Glimpse's power is being both a activator for last breath effects and for denying strike targets or getting free draw after the opponent used spells to kill something.
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Feb 5, 2020 04:05
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I did anywhere from mediocre to horrible in my first few expeditions so I was all ready to suck poo poo when it rolled over today and then this happened a true rollercoaster of emotions was experienced
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Feb 5, 2020 04:07
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misguided rage posted:You don't die if the overwhelm would knock you negative if the lifesteal is enough. I'm not sure what happens if you die partway through combat and then lifesteal later, anyone know? I figure you still die but I haven't really wanted to test it. You die immediately 
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Feb 5, 2020 04:12
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Not being able to play spells during combat is an absolutely massive drawback that turns combat on defence into an entirely one-sided affair. There are a few cards that could stand to be made slow. But I don’t think stopping Shadow Isles from using combat tricks and kill spells in combat is a good idea. Especially with how as it is Black Spear isn’t a combat trick on defence ever anyway.
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Feb 5, 2020 04:16
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Question, what happens if you play a Ethereal Remitter on something like a 10 mana Scuttlegheist, does it resummon a random 10 drop since there are no 12 drops?
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Feb 5, 2020 04:16
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Which deck should I build if I'm loving stupid but I want to hit people and win.
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Feb 5, 2020 04:19
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sharks
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Feb 5, 2020 04:19
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misguided rage posted:You don't die if the overwhelm would knock you negative if the lifesteal is enough. I'm not sure what happens if you die partway through combat and then lifesteal later, anyone know? I figure you still die but I haven't really wanted to test it. Its not like artifact where everything is considered as instant but runeterra has priority from left to right. So if you die first due to a hit on the left then the opponent wins no matter what even if your final unit on the right kills the nexus
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Feb 5, 2020 04:19
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Frankly if they do touch Shadow Isles I think increasing the cost of most of their spells by 1 would be enough.
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Feb 5, 2020 04:21
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