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McCloud
Oct 27, 2005

You can tell I'm a star wars fan because I

A) Hate star wars
B) post star wars fan fiction

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wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten

McCloud posted:

You can tell I'm a star wars fan because I

A) Hate star wars
B) post star wars fan fiction

You also have to design a starship and post a render of it.

Elfgames
Sep 11, 2011

Fun Shoe
the idea that ballance is some kind of midpoint between light and dark, is the loving stupidest thing

fatherboxx
Mar 25, 2013

Elfgames posted:

the idea that ballance is some kind of midpoint between light and dark, is the loving stupidest thing

You put some points in dark for force choke and some in light for healing and better dialogue options, win-win

Barudak
May 7, 2007

Elfgames posted:

the idea that ballance is some kind of midpoint between light and dark, is the loving stupidest thing

Well given that there is no light side of the force, you're right.

TheDeadlyShoe
Feb 14, 2014

pretense is my co-pilot

The arms dealer plot always bothered me; it never struck me as a good idea or good theme. And after giving it some thought I think I know why: It's just another episode of RJ Doesn't Understand The Source Material.

The Empire and the First Order are explicitly fascist enterprises. Industrialists and arms manufacturers did not play both sides; some embraced fascism to increase their power and wealth, eventually destroying their rivals who did not. And eventually the power of fascists increased to the point of dictating terms to industrialists. The only famous example of someone playing both sides in ww2 is Switzerland, and even that was more plausible deniability to help Nazis hide their loot. Even the foreign rich families, most notably the Bush family, who were profiting from fascism in Germany took up arms against them once military action started.

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

Think more like the war on drugs . The fascist regime is funding the rebels in the same way the CIA funded guerillas in South America. They fan the flames of rebellion while targeting any dissident or public figure who comes out in support of them. It’s how they flush out both Leia and Luke.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN

TheDeadlyShoe posted:

The arms dealer plot always bothered me; it never struck me as a good idea or good theme. And after giving it some thought I think I know why: It's just another episode of RJ Doesn't Understand The Source Material.

The Empire and the First Order are explicitly fascist enterprises. Industrialists and arms manufacturers did not play both sides; some embraced fascism to increase their power and wealth, eventually destroying their rivals who did not. And eventually the power of fascists increased to the point of dictating terms to industrialists. The only famous example of someone playing both sides in ww2 is Switzerland, and even that was more plausible deniability to help Nazis hide their loot. Even the foreign rich families, most notably the Bush family, who were profiting from fascism in Germany took up arms against them once military action started.

There are a few details that you're missing here:

1) When DJ displays the invoices in the luxury ship, showing sales of both X-WIngs and TIEs, those invoices are from before the First Order actually gained control of the Galaxy by blowing up Coruscant. At the time those sales were made, the First Order was still just a political party within the Republic.

2) The First Order is not explicitly fascist; it's generically super-totalitarian and coded as akin to Stalinism. Although there are Imperialist elements within the First Order, Snoke considers them useful idiots and ensures that they never hold any real power.

Based on those two points: the rich Republicans in the casino are, at the time of TLJ, enemies of the First Order (though they are seemingly oblivious to this fact). They've made their money and believe themselves invincible, but the ground is crumbling around them.

When DJ says not to join the endless Star War, he clearly allies himself with the First Order against the Republic/Empire.

sand maggot
Jan 3, 2020

TheDeadlyShoe posted:

The arms dealer plot always bothered me; it never struck me as a good idea or good theme. And after giving it some thought I think I know why: It's just another episode of RJ Doesn't Understand The Source Material.

The Empire and the First Order are explicitly fascist enterprises. Industrialists and arms manufacturers did not play both sides; some embraced fascism to increase their power and wealth, eventually destroying their rivals who did not. And eventually the power of fascists increased to the point of dictating terms to industrialists. The only famous example of someone playing both sides in ww2 is Switzerland, and even that was more plausible deniability to help Nazis hide their loot. Even the foreign rich families, most notably the Bush family, who were profiting from fascism in Germany took up arms against them once military action started.

Spain, too. It’s amazing how that country managed to avoid WW2.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019

by sebmojo

socialsecurity posted:

It'd help is they would show a single dark side user that was not a genocidal maniac. I mean who looks at the emperor and thinks well if I only become half what he is I will find peace.

I think I just saw that in Gretel and Hansel. While there's nothing "Star Wars" about it, Gretal and Hansel is easily the model of a Sith apprenticeship with the Witch helping Gretel awaken and begin to master her own powers. Ultimately Gretel turns against her and kills her when the Witch tries to get her to eat her much younger brother, Hansel. One could easily imagine this movie occurring on some primitive planet within the Star Wars setting with a Sith "Mistress" using the very darkest of the Dark Side and trying to seduce cultivate the Dark Side in Gretel as someone she sees as a sister/daughter in power. Despite the clear evil of the Witch, you get the feeling that she really does see herself as acting in Gretel's best interests. So, Gretel would possibly count as someone who was taught the ways of the Force in the Sith tradition but chose to reject or at least manage their power instead of turning into a Palpatinesque scenery-chewing loon.

HaitianDivorce
Jul 29, 2012

Saturnalia posted:

Spain, too. It’s amazing how that country managed to avoid WW2.

The Spanish Civil War destroying the country's economy and killing most of the country's military-age men probably helped

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Saturnalia posted:

Spain, too. It’s amazing how that country managed to avoid WW2.

HaitianDivorce posted:

The Spanish Civil War destroying the country's economy and killing most of the country's military-age men probably helped

Yeah, it's this.

Dr. Fishopolis
Aug 31, 2004

ROBOT

Saturnalia posted:

Spain, too. It’s amazing how that country managed to avoid WW2.

my dude with the sanderista tag, you should read "homage to catalonia" by orwell. it's particularly relevant these days.

galagazombie
Oct 31, 2011

A silly little mouse!

Elfgames posted:

the idea that ballance is some kind of midpoint between light and dark, is the loving stupidest thing

Well good for you because Lucas explicitly stated it wasn't. Essentially the Force exists in a natural balanced state and evil poo poo corrupts it and creates the Dark Side as a kind of spiritual tumor, hence the need to bring balance to the force to heal the universe. The character flaw of the Prequel Jedi wasn't that they were too Light-sided like the Legends EU always mistakenly thought, it was the opposite. They had become unbalanced and thus were succumbing to the Dark much like how the Republic was.

sand maggot
Jan 3, 2020

Dr. Fishopolis posted:

my dude with the sanderista tag, you should read "homage to catalonia" by orwell. it's particularly relevant these days.

It’s amazing Spain stayed out considering Francisco Franco had a major boner for the Nazis, and even received support from Hitler during the Spanish Civil War.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

Elfgames posted:

the idea that ballance is some kind of midpoint between light and dark, is the loving stupidest thing
TLJ's notion that the Dark Side is just bullshit is great

Pretty good
Apr 16, 2007



I'm a gray Jedi. Peace yet serenity... Wisdom, yet smartness

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
I think it was SMG in one of these threads who said that the midpoint between Light and Dark isn't Grey, it's Dim

Timeless Appeal posted:

TLJ's notion that the Dark Side is just bullshit is great
I really like Luke's "lesson" where he takes it back to Episode 4 and says the Force is an energy field that's in and between everything, that "does not belong to the Jedi"

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019

by sebmojo

2house2fly posted:

I think it was SMG in one of these threads who said that the midpoint between Light and Dark isn't Grey, it's Dim

I really like Luke's "lesson" where he takes it back to Episode 4 and says the Force is an energy field that's in and between everything, that "does not belong to the Jedi"

Alas, Rian Johnson committed the unforgivable sin of try to do something new. Or old. Or at least different.

Way back (I'm 51) when I was a kid growing up in the 80s, the science fiction "Cola War" was between Star Trek and Star Wars. It's a little cliche now, but it really was kind of a thing back then. And I was a Star Wars guy. I didn't hate Star Trek, but it just seemed that laser swords and Jedi stuff included, Star Wars was a more believable human space existence than Star Trek. I could believe in Transporters, Phaser and Warp Drive, but I could never really accept the idea that we would eventually science-tech our way out of human nature. That the so-called Seven Deadly Sins of Envy, Gluttony, Greed, Lust, Pride, Sloth and Wrath wouldn't be a continuing part of the human condition no matter how advanced we got.

The people (alien or not) in Star Wars were still recognizable as people. The ones in Star Trek (at least on the "good guy Federation side") weren't.

Except that Star Trek evolved to some degree. Deep Space Nine showed a much more recognizable universe. And Star Wars... kind of stayed the same.

More than anything else since 1983, I'd been looking forward to the Second Trilogy of SW 7, 8 and 9. I didn't hate the Prequels (though I did my share of mocking them), in part because I didn't really care about them. Fine, whatever, clones, Jedi are dumb, Anakin puts on the Asthma Suit. Can we move this the gently caress along? I wanna know what happens next.

The was the attraction of the novels/comics/etc. of the Expanded Universe. It told us What Happened Next. Some of it was deeply stupid (Kevin J Anderson) but it was cool watching Luke, Han, Leia and even their kids trying to build something in the aftermath of the Star Wars. Watching somebody like Admiral Pellaeon go from a ruthless enemy to a trusted friend. The EU had its faults and plenty of them but it at least tried to go forward.

And then the Second Trilogy came out and... it mostly repeats the original trilogy. Anything that threatens to be new or interesting is retconned and beaten back into line. And while I didn't think it at the time, my main reaction to RoS is, "Really? I waited 36 loving years to get this poo poo?"

Everyone fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Feb 7, 2020

sand maggot
Jan 3, 2020

There is literally nothing new in TLJ, how do people keep falling for this.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

The thing that TLJ does different from the other Disney episodes is actually acknowledge the prequels.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019

by sebmojo

Saturnalia posted:

There is literally nothing new in TLJ, how do people keep falling for this.

Because it's not a near note-for-note retread of a previous movie in the original trilogy. Because it credibly threatens to become interesting.

sand maggot
Jan 3, 2020

Everyone posted:

Because it's not a near note-for-note retread of a previous movie in the original trilogy. Because it credibly threatens to become interesting.

Yeah, it set up something that could have been new for the sequel, but the film itself is still a lurching retread of the OT.

Pretty good
Apr 16, 2007



Bongo Bill posted:

The thing that TLJ does different from the other Disney episodes is actually acknowledge the prequels.
bbut there was a battle droid in the background in one scene in IX

ungulateman
Apr 18, 2012

pretentious fuckwit who isn't half as literate or insightful or clever as he thinks he is
weesa free

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010


If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling
1-800-GAMBLER


Ultra Carp

Everyone posted:

Because it's not a near note-for-note retread of a previous movie in the original trilogy. Because it credibly threatens to become interesting.

See though that was actually my problem with it, it felt almost entirely like a straight remake of V:

-Both films start with the rebels fleeing from their base against the overwhelming might of an Imperial fleet

-In both films, the young, force sensitive protagonist goes off to train with an older, eccentric mentor in an exotic and isolated location, while their friends spend the film fleeing from the Empire

-The protagonist receives a spooky vision from a weird force cave

-While attempting to escape the Empire, the protagonist's friends are betrayed by an ally they trusted

-The protagonist, learning their friends are in danger, goes off to confront the Emperor's right-hand man. During the confrontation, the protagonist learns a shocking truth about their family.

And then the film does the Battle of Hoth, again - since apparently having the opening battle achieve the same narrative function as Hoth (setting up that the protagonist's friends are fleeing from the Empire), we've got to have direct visual references as well.

Like, obviously TLJ is a very different film from ESB, but it hits a lot of the same narrative beats. And for me that was extremely disappointing, since all I wanted was a new and different Star Wars film, I'd heard TLJ was exciting and different, and then... it really wasn't. (Didn't help either I had a ton of other problems with the film's writing and execution. There are ways to do a good chase movie, and Fury Road this was not.)

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
It... is a near note for note retread of Empire though, with some ROTJ thrown in. The rebels are cornered by the Empire on a snow planet and barely escape after a battle of speeders against imperial walkers, our hero receives training in the Force from a reluctant master and leaves after having visions of the future, while the rebels escape one ship does it's own thing and has an adventure that includes going to a nice-looking planet with a dark secret and ends with getting captured by the Empire. Then the villain discusses the hero's parentage and extends an offer to rule the galaxy together. This takes place after a confrontation with the dark overlord where his underling kills him (partially) to save the hero, and in the end Luke resolves the final battle not by fighting but by provoking action from the villain.

I think it's cool how it turns a bunch of stuff around uses your expectations to create twists (eg you expect that Snoke will want to train Rey or something like Palpatine wanted to do for Luke, but he actually just wants to kill her; and of course Rey's parents were drug addicts who sold her, the twist being a) she already knows, b) the "reveal" is just Kylo trying to emotionally abuse her so she thinks he's her only option) but the writing process definitely involved putting bits of Star Wars in a blender

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
Uh yeah what he said

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010


If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling
1-800-GAMBLER


Ultra Carp

2house2fly posted:

Uh yeah what he said

Ha, at least we're on the same page.

punishedkissinger
Sep 20, 2017

Casino planet is sort of like Cloud City too.

Barudak
May 7, 2007

There are podracing flags in The Force Awakens

Emrikol
Oct 1, 2015

Barudak posted:

There are podracing flags in The Force Awakens

Did they not remove all of them?

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

Acebuckeye13 posted:

And then the film does the Battle of Hoth, again - since apparently having the opening battle achieve the same narrative function as Hoth (setting up that the protagonist's friends are fleeing from the Empire), we've got to have direct visual references as well
Yeah, but that's intentionally jarring. It also visually includes Finn trying to make the Death Star trench run including Rey intercepting Tie Fighters in the Millenium Falcon just like Han and transitions into remaking Obi-Wan's fight with Vader.

The Last Jedi looks like a remake of Empire, becomes a remake of Return of the Jedi, and then suddenly starts going backwards in reverse chronological order (The Beginning of Empire -> The Death Star Run -> the Obi-Wan/Vader duel).

Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019

by vyelkin
Honestly I think it would have been cooler if instead of Starkiller base being a super weapon, it was just a planet with its equator collapsed because it had been mined for all of its kyber crystals. There's a big space battle because the Resistance received bad intel that it was a super weapon, when in fact they learn that it is being built elsewhere.

TLJ could have played out the same way. At the end of the film it is revealed to Rey that it the First Order is building superweapons, plural.

But they're still thinking about the death star, so they're expecting two or three big installations with a doomsday cannon.

In the third film everyone is shocked when it turns out that they put doomsday lasers onto a fleet of 500 star destroyers and the whole thing is being carried out by fanatics who promised the emperor they would destroy all life in the galaxy were he to be killed. So it's not about making worlds cower to the First Order -- it's about literally exterminating all life in the galaxy.

Would have been way better as far as the bad guys being scary.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019

by sebmojo

Grandpa Palpatine posted:

Honestly I think it would have been cooler if instead of Starkiller base being a super weapon, it was just a planet with its equator collapsed because it had been mined for all of its kyber crystals. There's a big space battle because the Resistance received bad intel that it was a super weapon, when in fact they learn that it is being built elsewhere.

TLJ could have played out the same way. At the end of the film it is revealed to Rey that it the First Order is building superweapons, plural.

But they're still thinking about the death star, so they're expecting two or three big installations with a doomsday cannon.

In the third film everyone is shocked when it turns out that they put doomsday lasers onto a fleet of 500 star destroyers and the whole thing is being carried out by fanatics who promised the emperor they would destroy all life in the galaxy were he to be killed. So it's not about making worlds cower to the First Order -- it's about literally exterminating all life in the galaxy.

Would have been way better as far as the bad guys being scary.

I want to object to some of that. I want to say, "Starkiller base has to be the super weapons that the Republic can be destroyed." Except, not really. Because the Republic was pretty much indifferent to the First Order right up to the point that it killed them.

In your idea you could still have Palpatine as the bad guy. He died at Death Star II and is now a Force Ghost. However, he wants to unleash the 500 Destroyers with Dicks to murder/sacrifice whole planets and supercharge the galaxy with fear and rage. Then he can channel all that Dark Side energy to go from Force Ghost to Force God.

Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019

by vyelkin

Everyone posted:

I want to object to some of that. I want to say, "Starkiller base has to be the super weapons that the Republic can be destroyed." Except, not really. Because the Republic was pretty much indifferent to the First Order right up to the point that it killed them.

In your idea you could still have Palpatine as the bad guy. He died at Death Star II and is now a Force Ghost. However, he wants to unleash the 500 Destroyers with Dicks to murder/sacrifice whole planets and supercharge the galaxy with fear and rage. Then he can channel all that Dark Side energy to go from Force Ghost to Force God.

no gently caress palpatine coming back in any form

Some dumb bullshit for real.

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003

Yea the idea that there needs to be an old guy space wizard end boss is idiotic, it should’ve just been Kylo

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
There doesn't need to be a superweapon to destroy planets either, why can't we have drat villains any more. How far have we fallen from episodes 1-6 that now an army of fanatics on a mission to wipe out all life in the universe would be an improvement on what we got?

Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019

by vyelkin
Y'all I am SHOCKED that Rise of Skywalker wasn't nominated for best film editing

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Ingmar terdman
Jul 24, 2006

Should have been nominated for most film editing

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