|
I think there's a core point of confusion where all confusion between socialist and socdem thought flows from. It's this:jarofpiss posted:it was actually good. the people taking state power through electoral politics is the absolute best case scenario and we should engage in it sincerely and wholeheartedly with the goal of staving off bloodshed. Actually, it's a fantasy scenario, not simply in the sense of being unlikely but in the sense of requiring reality to work in a way opposite to how it does. The president doesn't hold state power, the government doesn't hold state power, the parliament doesn't hold state power. State power is divided between a variety of institutions, most of which are anti-democratic, that need to work together and follow a preset list of rules to be able to throw around real, meaningful power rather than Trumpian bluster that will only last as long as his presidency does. Taking state power legally would require the kind of electoral success that has to my knowledge never once been even close happening in any first world country after they wrote an actual democratic constitution! This core point of confusion masks the fundamental contradiction between socialists and socdems. Social democracy is also called social fascism for the simple reason that it principally and almost exclusively acts to legitimize and empower the state and erode trust in the existing spectrum of anti-state powers. It can't have any other major function, because the state is the place in bourgeois society where the power over governmental initiatives that represent collective interests against individual interests is concentrated. The only legal way to enact popular demands is by convincing the legally required share of involved parties that it is in their interest as well, so unsurprisingly the policies that get passed are those that in fact are also in bourgeois, fundamentally anti-socialist interests! To acquire state power, you need to get your dirty commie hands on the constitution and not just amend it, but rewrite it so that all the institutions you don't hold lose their power to dictate to the institutions that you do hold. As an aside, this is why military coups are a thing: you get to rewrite the constitution and authorize the military to intervene again if someone breaks the constitution to free themselves from it. Similarly, the highest goal of democratic socialism that is distinguishable from social democracy could only be self-coup, only rather than with the support of the military against the masses, the opposite way around. The immediate goal could only be handing out the powers of the state like candy to popular organisations that reject and oppose both the nonprofit-industrial complex and the state itself. Diverting state resources to build the capacity of the masses to take power while relentlessly beating down on the capacity of the state to prevent it. It's pure illusion that the two factions could work together on a strategic rather than just a tactical, case-by-case basis. In the end, success on socdem terms, rather than slowly legitimizing the destruction of the state by the socialist movement if it stands in their way, legitimizes the destruction of the socialist movement by the state if they stand in its way. And the socdems will even do the dirty work themselves if they happen to represent the state at the time! This isn't just abstract logic, it's been replicated by history more or less every time. If you understand this and understand Bernie's vision, it should be more or less obvious to what extent the movement for Bernie is pro-socialist and to what extent it's anti-socialist. Relatively speaking, it's good all around right now, but the more successful it becomes, the closer it moves to a hypothetical point where the left too has become proud and supportive of the state of the land of freedom and find that it's worth defending from socialists and colonized people.
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 15:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 18:07 |
|
|
This is very interesting but obviously also a bit of a thread splitting argument, in that plenty of people do consider and invoke the spectres of this thread thread without strictly expecting, or even favoring, the revolutionary conclusion which would be its ultimate expression. I.e. it is as much a lens through which to understand social democracy, and to shape it in a way which is helpful and constructive, as it is an indictment of the same. Basically a political vision is not necessarily a political goal, though I understand those that feel that talking that way is a very fundamental betrayal.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 17:00
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:if this is actually true then we’re hosed lol
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 17:04
|
|
|
libs scoff at more revolutionary people saying peaceful protest is just a rally and go "oh so you'd go straight to violence" but there's a huge area of civil disobedience you can do. blockades, strikes are the obvious poo poo, which often leads to fighting with the cops, but don't really hurt innocents. Then if you stop believing private property should be a thing, it's real easy to do property damage. and you'll always need some antifa-like people to stop the chuds from trying to kick your rear end some or all of this poo poo has been done by every protest movement ever, even MLK was a) pretty aggressive for nonviolent protest, and b) had malcolm x
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 17:09
|
|
|
They're right
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 17:19
|
|
|
jarofpiss posted:bernie dropping his own iowa counts the minute they had their snafu says to me he isn't trying to maintain the kayfabe of the american electoral process. i think we're entering a period where electoralism is perilously hanging on by a thread and we will start seeing real pushes to transform the process. I agree that it was good to see and indicates the Sanders campaign is ready for at least some of the ratfucking coming their way. Lightning Knight posted:if this is actually true then we're hosed lol Dirty work can be done by people engaged in electoralism, it's not mutually exclusive with revolutionary action imo. In the recent American political past electoralism was dirty work. The left should make it that way again.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 17:22
|
|
|
anyone who honestly bitches about "electoralism" is either braindead or attending an ivy league. Either way who gives a gently caress about their idiot opinions
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 17:28
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:if this is actually true then we’re hosed lol the revolutionaries that are going to do dirty work are normal workers and union members and they should be the backbone of our movement. in my experience and in my area the self described revolutionaries that exist right now in 2020 are overwhelmingly disconnected from normal people and absolutely not the folks that are going to protect us from violence
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 17:42
|
|
|
uncop posted:I think there's a core point of confusion where all confusion between socialist and socdem thought flows from. It's this: my fault for drunk posting last night and not being clear but i don’t believe we take complete state power through bourgeois electoral politics. but we do take some of the levers and both expose the cracks in the system and provide cover for a growing mass movement by getting leftists elected. the bernie campaign is a once in a lifetime opportunity to really engage in destabilizing politics in a way that normal people can relate and understand. my take is that if you arent working right now to make that movement grow then you arent plugged in with where we are materially in this country. i think maybe where i divert with many people in this thread is that i think we have to engage in the bernie movement honestly and without cynicism. i think trying to organize around a movement with the attitude it’s doomed to fail is bad organizing and alienates regular people who are desperately hoping they are able to somehow change the world around them. and those people relate to political power through the lens of a presidential election. you have to meet them where they are.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 17:51
|
|
|
if nothing else, one should go vote to scare cowards away with numbers. 100 million bernie voters or whatever alone would say a lot about what people think about billionahs, and some are bound to run away, possibly resulting in less problems later when poo poo actually hits the fan, which isn't amazing, but it's also a lot more than loving nothing for just throwing a paper into a box.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 17:57
|
|
|
I'll just drop this quote from another podcast for everyone whinging about electoralism How's that factory uprising going?
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 18:30
|
|
|
the largest revolutionary class in the US right now is grad students
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 18:38
|
|
|
Revolutionary class of '20
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 18:43
|
|
|
Karl Barks posted:the largest revolutionary class in the US right now is grad students Which is just another way of saying "the US has no revolutionary class"
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 18:44
|
|
|
Karl Barks posted:the largest revolutionary class in the US right now is grad students yeah
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 18:50
|
|
|
MizPiz posted:Which is just another way of saying "the US has no revolutionary class" Absolutely true. Leftists act like the current communist groups and even the DSA are inheritors of a living, vibrant tradition that can be traced back to the 19th century or before when that's not really the case at all. That tradition died sometime in the 20th century, with the exact date depending on how the history of it is interpreted. There's an opening to build a new movement and the question really is whether the Bernie movement is the start of something (finally) or another failed attempt.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 19:00
|
|
|
dex_sda posted:libs scoff at more revolutionary people saying peaceful protest is just a rally and go "oh so you'd go straight to violence" but there's a huge area of civil disobedience you can do. blockades, strikes are the obvious poo poo, which often leads to fighting with the cops, but don't really hurt innocents. Then if you stop believing private property should be a thing, it's real easy to do property damage. and you'll always need some antifa-like people to stop the chuds from trying to kick your rear end don't forget this "Hoover issued another directive: "Prevent the rise of a 'messiah' who could unify and electrify the militant black nationalist movement. Malcolm X might have been such a 'messiah'... . Martin Luther King, Stokely Carmichael, and [Nation of Islam leader] Elijah Muhammed [sic] all aspire to this position ... . King could be a very real contender for this position should he abandon his supposed 'obedience' to 'white, liberal doctrines' (nonviolence)."" also i'm a retail worker without a job right now, not exactly NYC grad school revolutionary class. to be clear, i am voting for and calling people for bernie, because i think it could make a real impact on my life and the lives of others i know. but i don't think it will bring about communism, and it shouldn't detract from the other organizing in your life (for me, the SRA and #shutdownetowah)
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 19:04
|
|
|
Homeless Friend posted:Revolutionary class of '20
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 19:12
|
|
|
SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:also i'm a retail worker without a job right now, not exactly NYC grad school revolutionary class. if nothing else, showing the numbers are on your side can make an impact, since nobody protests alone - you can only do it as a collective. and indeed, it can help enact some change. basically, like LK said, you need to do both and you're deluding yourself if you don't
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 19:13
|
|
|
a pigs head for all libraries
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 19:23
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/getfiscal/status/1225477126540943360
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 22:03
|
|
|
SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:don't forget this this is like a minimum/maximum program. you call for one thing while saying you think it wont help achieve your real end goals while having some other form of organizing which is separate and apart from it to keep it like pure. revolutionaries should support and actively be calling for votes for bernie while pointing out how limiting his running as a democrat is and patiently explaining to his supporters why we need to transform the movement behind sanders into a real revolutionary movement. the first step of that process would be explaining the need for a new mass workers party and how sanders could use his campaign to begin something like that. there shouldnt be two levels to organizing, use revolutionary methods in the fight to win sanders election. doing so brings you into contact with the most politically mature and advanced layers of the working class, while also demonstrating how the real power of sanders' campaign was not in him as an individual but through the methods and organization of the working class movement which supported him. his campaign and election is one huge step in helping to teach a generation of working class people how mass movements work and how to build power.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 22:45
|
|
|
apropos to nothing posted:this is like a minimum/maximum program. you call for one thing while saying you think it wont help achieve your real end goals while having some other form of organizing which is separate and apart from it to keep it like pure. revolutionaries should support and actively be calling for votes for bernie while pointing out how limiting his running as a democrat is and patiently explaining to his supporters why we need to transform the movement behind sanders into a real revolutionary movement. the first step of that process would be explaining the need for a new mass workers party and how sanders could use his campaign to begin something like that. there shouldnt be two levels to organizing, use revolutionary methods in the fight to win sanders election. doing so brings you into contact with the most politically mature and advanced layers of the working class, while also demonstrating how the real power of sanders' campaign was not in him as an individual but through the methods and organization of the working class movement which supported him. his campaign and election is one huge step in helping to teach a generation of working class people how mass movements work and how to build power. it's starting to look like rather than being limited by running as a democrat, he's causing the dnc to self-immolate on a national stage which is an objectively good thing that no third party candidate i know about has been able to manage
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2020 23:11
|
|
|
we have to go beyond 20th century socialism. the new socialism will look entirely different from the socialism of the past. our tools are now apps and memes, not unions and strikes. the power of collective posting, the power of concerted online harassment, will bring about the new egalitarian future
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2020 00:19
|
|
|
apropos to nothing posted:this is like a minimum/maximum program. you call for one thing while saying you think it wont help achieve your real end goals while having some other form of organizing which is separate and apart from it to keep it like pure. revolutionaries should support and actively be calling for votes for bernie while pointing out how limiting his running as a democrat is and patiently explaining to his supporters why we need to transform the movement behind sanders into a real revolutionary movement. the first step of that process would be explaining the need for a new mass workers party and how sanders could use his campaign to begin something like that. there shouldnt be two levels to organizing, use revolutionary methods in the fight to win sanders election. doing so brings you into contact with the most politically mature and advanced layers of the working class, while also demonstrating how the real power of sanders' campaign was not in him as an individual but through the methods and organization of the working class movement which supported him. his campaign and election is one huge step in helping to teach a generation of working class people how mass movements work and how to build power. Not only do you need a mass workers party to support Bernie you need one to hold him accountable so he doesn't waffle or compromise on important issues. I know everyone loves the socialist grandpa but it's entirely possible he gains power but chooses not to exercise it to the degree he must, and that's where pressure from below comes into play.
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2020 00:27
|
|
|
THS posted:we have to go beyond 20th century socialism. the new socialism will look entirely different from the socialism of the past. our tools are now apps and memes, not unions and strikes. the power of collective posting, the power of concerted online harassment, will bring about the new egalitarian future I agree but unions and strikes are definitely still our tools, the teacher's strikes in the US and the strikes in France are both very promising signs
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2020 01:02
|
|
|
syndicalism and trade unions are like the one perennially successful model for left-wing organizing, I don't know why you'd ditch it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2020 01:28
|
|
|
Central Committee of Communist Posters
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2020 01:33
|
|
|
Dreylad posted:syndicalism and trade unions are like the one perennially successful model for left-wing organizing, I don't know why you'd ditch it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2020 01:37
|
|
|
Union of Socialist Simps and Replyguys
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2020 01:38
|
|
|
Online harassment is all well and good but you do need to flex your muscles and shut down a city with a strike every once in a while
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2020 01:42
|
|
|
Dreylad posted:Not only do you need a mass workers party to support Bernie you need one to hold him accountable so he doesn't waffle or compromise on important issues. I know everyone loves the socialist grandpa but it's entirely possible he gains power but chooses not to exercise it to the degree he must, and that's where pressure from below comes into play. exactly. that point has to be made to sanders supporters though because they would be the mass base of support for such a party. thats why revolutionary socialists should engage with the sanders campaign positively. the goal shouldnt be to orient around whatever sanders says or does or cancel him because of bad votes hes made in the past or some of his bad politics that socialists might disagree with, but to orient towards the millions of people who are excited about his candidacy. its a subtle difference but its a very important one.
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2020 01:56
|
|
|
Terrorist Fistbump posted:Union of Socialist Simps and Replyguys
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2020 02:00
|
|
|
apropos to nothing posted:exactly. that point has to be made to sanders supporters though because they would be the mass base of support for such a party. thats why revolutionary socialists should engage with the sanders campaign positively. the goal shouldnt be to orient around whatever sanders says or does or cancel him because of bad votes hes made in the past or some of his bad politics that socialists might disagree with, but to orient towards the millions of people who are excited about his candidacy. its a subtle difference but its a very important one. That's pretty much what I thought the whole purpose of a sanders presidency was. Bernie isn't going to magic us away to commie land by himself. But, him being president opens up the possibility for a real left moment.
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2020 02:05
|
|
|
It's going to be interesting to see if Chapo is going to turn into an insufferable left version of Rachel Maddow during the Obama administration, or if they're going to hold him to account at the end of the day as soon as Bernie assumes office the relationship needs to turn far more antagonistic to drag him further left and hold his feet to the fire
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2020 02:57
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:his feet
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2020 03:02
|
|
|
if you see bernie sanders on the road, kill him
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2020 03:04
|
|
|
THS posted:if you see bernie sanders on the road, kill him Writing up qcs post rn buddy
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2020 03:05
|
|
|
Terrorist Fistbump posted:Union of Socialist Simps and Replyguys
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2020 03:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 18:07 |
|
|
im pretty socdem compared to the other posters here but even the weeks of BERNIEBERNIEBERNIE have kinda weirded me out yeah cool do that if you feel like it but the real test is if his thousands of volunteers, staffers or whatever are willing to beat the poo poo out of him to get every promise filled, which still isnt enough in the long term Goast fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Feb 7, 2020 |
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2020 03:15
|
|