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priznat posted:Hell yeah! Pretty lame how the soviets had a gazillion surface to surface missile flavours and couldn’t get it together on that. Sheesh. Every lost Soviet life was a reduction in liability for the Soviet state.
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Feb 12, 2020 01:58
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Mortabis posted:I know I bang on about this a lot but just imagine how many more ships everyone would have if everyone just got their naval vessels from say South Korea, which can actually build ships economically. That and I imagine if Hyundai Heavy Industries had to deal with NAVSEA and stuff a bulk carrier full of sensitive electronics and weapons systems, they wouldn't be quite so cheap.
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Feb 12, 2020 02:06
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priznat posted:We'll probably end up buying Bombardier Challenger jets that are somehow less capable and more expensive than P-8s in the final tally So I went to the P-8's wiki, and it turns out this already happened: quote:Boeing identified that the Royal Canadian Air Force's fleet of 18 CP-140 Auroras (Canadian variant of the P-3 Orion) would begin to reach the end of their service life by 2025.
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Feb 12, 2020 02:15
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Cyrano4747 posted:Holy loving The mysterious thing about this is wasn't this known for a long time? Or maybe I'm thinking of another Swiss crypto CIA front company
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Feb 12, 2020 02:51
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Nebakenezzer posted:The mysterious thing about this is wasn't this known for a long time? No you’re remembering right. The Baltimore Sun had the story back in the mid 90s, and I’m sure other places had it as well. The news is that the reporters got the official CIA documents confirming the story is true, and showing how much more deeply involved the CIA and NSA were in the whole thing.
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Feb 12, 2020 03:13
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Edit: Nevermind.
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Feb 12, 2020 03:52
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:I was talking with my naval architect uncle about this recently and he mentioned not just that, but also that there is very little crossover between civilian and military ship construction in the US. There's tons of small yards on the gulf coast that spit out pretty decent size crew/oil & gas service boats, and if you could figure out how to bolt on some guns and sensors, you could get a fighting ship for much cheaper than starting from scratch. Imagine the P-8 program that used a basically proven civilian design and stuck some hardware in it but for ships. How many VLS tubes could you fit on a boilerplate PANAMAX supertanker? Except the navy would want it to do 40 knots, have advanced sonar and radar systems, and probably be nuclear powered and able to launch helicopters, torpedoes, and landing craft. They know how to do advanced warships too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejong_the_Great-class_destroyer
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Feb 12, 2020 04:22
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kill me now posted:They know how to do advanced warships too Oh I didn’t mean to imply the South Koreans don’t know how to build ships-they are far and away the best at it, and at half the price of an Arleigh Burke, that seems like something we really ought to consider. That being said, Pascagoula and Bath are gonna need waaaay more than a billion dollars worth of meth and opioid counseling if the yards there ever close. I try to see the upside of incredibly wasteful military (and especially naval) procurement as the modern CCC-making work for people and hopefully the nation gets something useful in return. We could do better on the ‘making sure they’re making something useful’ part for sure.
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Feb 12, 2020 04:43
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But in the same way as we just laughed at everyone buying the CIA's cryptography gear, what if South Korea goes rogue and sends the secret sink command to your whole navy? 
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Feb 12, 2020 10:57
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Nebakenezzer posted:So I went to the P-8's wiki, and it turns out this already happened: I'm the person who got high enough on his own farts to think that an aurora is a C4ISR platform. I once worked with an E3 dude who went to some conference and encountered a group of CP140 people who thought TCAS gave them the ability to generate an air picture. Semi-related - how do newer ASW platforms detect subs without MAD booms, generally speaking?
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Feb 12, 2020 16:17
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Guest2553 posted:I'm the person who got high enough on his own farts to think that an aurora is a C4ISR platform. I once worked with an E3 dude who went to some conference and encountered a group of CP140 people who thought TCAS gave them the ability to generate an air picture. Wait, in addition to sub hunting and naval recon, Canada wants to have the next gen act as mini............control centers? Here's a wild loving idea, guys: how about you find an airframe that can do both, and then buy so many as C4ISR whatev, and so many as doing the CP-140's job
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Feb 12, 2020 16:28
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Nebakenezzer posted:Wait, in addition to sub hunting and naval recon, Canada wants to have the next gen act as mini............control centers? Words that express combat capability in Canada are like words that express political concepts in America. They're just so far divorced from reality that legitimate discourse with the rest of the world is impossible, but homegrown industry takes advantage of it and somehow thrives.
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Feb 12, 2020 16:34
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Hello great thread. Speaking of cryptography and secret orders, I’m doing research for a novel and it would really help the Authenticity if I could include some fake message traffic, all formatted fancy and poo poo. Do any of you know what kind of message formats would be used *during* a nuclear strike? I’m talking after the EAM has gone out and everyone’s launching - the chatter you’d get once the balloon is up. Vintage formats are okay but 2010s era is best. Obviously this is the kind of thing that’s highly classified but maybe I can fake it 
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Feb 12, 2020 18:07
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So this is a thing.Floodkiller posted:The Philippines have withdrawn from the Visiting Forces Agreement with the US. Unless a new agreement is reached in 180 days, it will be terminated completely (for China to move in instead).
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Feb 12, 2020 18:33
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General Battuta posted:Hello great thread. Speaking of cryptography and secret orders, I’m doing research for a novel and it would really help the Authenticity if I could include some fake message traffic, all formatted fancy and poo poo. Do any of you know what kind of message formats would be used *during* a nuclear strike? I’m talking after the EAM has gone out and everyone’s launching - the chatter you’d get once the balloon is up. Vintage formats are okay but 2010s era is best. Obviously this is the kind of thing that’s highly classified but maybe I can fake it I decided to do some googling and found this, which is interesting: http://mt-milcom.blogspot.com/p/what-is-emergency-action-message-or-eam.html?m=1 According to this, there's a lot of traffic going over the radio networks even in peace time - reconnaissance reports, troop orders, and so on. So it's not just nuclear launch orders. This has a neat breakdown from a technical perspective as an outside observer: https://www.numbers-stations.com/military/usa/hfgcs/ I get the sense that most messages are highly coded strings of NATO phonetic alphabet letters, so the message itself will be opaque and you might as well write the meaning. NightGyr fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Feb 12, 2020 |
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Feb 12, 2020 18:53
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Well this is neat, you sent me down a rabbit hole an I discovered: a log of all EAMs a memoir that's mysterious about the purpose of the messages but explains how they get retransmitted
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Feb 12, 2020 19:03
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Strings of brevity code are perfect! I don’t think you need to understand the message contents to get some eerie emotional effect.
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Feb 12, 2020 19:09
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NightGyr posted:Well this is neat, you sent me down a rabbit hole an I discovered: He spelled "Sigonella" wrong. And yeah, there's a pretty impressive array of electronics off-base. Not sure if they still use the nomenclature, but we used to call the residential/commercial part of the base NAS 1, the airbase NAS 2, and the "does not exist" ELINT area "NAS 3." BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Feb 12, 2020 |
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Feb 12, 2020 19:09
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General Battuta posted:Strings of brevity code are perfect! I don’t think you need to understand the message contents to get some eerie emotional effect. The scenes in First Strike (later included in The Day After) have a serious effect on me. It's like doing paperwork, but with lives on the line in a very immediate sense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlPEBROvR9w
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Feb 12, 2020 19:16
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"Standing by for traffic" is p eerie already
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Feb 12, 2020 19:18
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Hey, semi related but what is the origin of the whole “the balloon going up thing” wrt nuclear war? Was 99 Luft Balloons gonna start playing and everyone in East/West Germany had like three minutes to party until nuclear hellfire?
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Feb 12, 2020 19:21
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General Battuta posted:Hello great thread. Speaking of cryptography and secret orders, I’m doing research for a novel and it would really help the Authenticity if I could include some fake message traffic, all formatted fancy and poo poo. Do any of you know what kind of message formats would be used *during* a nuclear strike? I’m talking after the EAM has gone out and everyone’s launching - the chatter you’d get once the balloon is up. Vintage formats are okay but 2010s era is best. Obviously this is the kind of thing that’s highly classified but maybe I can fake it It's going to be powerpoints, op
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Feb 12, 2020 19:21
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Bulgaroctonus posted:Hey, semi related but what is the origin of the whole “the balloon going up thing” wrt nuclear war? Was 99 Luft Balloons gonna start playing and everyone in East/West Germany had like three minutes to party until nuclear hellfire? It goes back to WWI at least, WRT artillery observation balloons.
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Feb 12, 2020 19:29
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Bulgaroctonus posted:Hey, semi related but what is the origin of the whole “the balloon going up thing” wrt nuclear war? Was 99 Luft Balloons gonna start playing and everyone in East/West Germany had like three minutes to party until nuclear hellfire? Tactical nuclear zeppelins. In the opening scene to Wargames, the "cold open" as it were is a scene where two officers are ordered to fire their ICBMs, one balks and wants further confirmation, so the other dude puts a gun on him. Turns out to be a drill but this human element is the reason the AF turns to WOPR in the movie. So irl, did they just trust that psych screens would catch balkers or do we know anything about the protocol when one of the launch officers refuses to turn his key? Anything declassified from the USSR?
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Feb 12, 2020 19:35
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I had thought it referred to the barrage ballons they used to put up around london to help protect the city. Go figure
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Feb 12, 2020 19:37
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NightGyr posted:The scenes in First Strike (later included in The Day After) have a serious effect on me. It's like doing paperwork, but with lives on the line in a very immediate sense. I just can't take First Strike seriously because it's not like the Soviets just "rolled a 20" there, it's that they rolled like fifty twenties in a row.
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Feb 12, 2020 19:38
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Ahhhh, that makes a lot more sense. I always figured it was something like the blast knocking out communications, but that doesn’t make any sense if it’s supposed to signal incoming nukes. Still want to believe that all radios and TVs would just automatically blast that song to let everyone know it’s time for a last minute dance party.
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Feb 12, 2020 19:38
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Bulgaroctonus posted:Ahhhh, that makes a lot more sense. I always figured it was something like the blast knocking out communications, but that doesn’t make any sense if it’s supposed to signal incoming nukes. Still want to believe that all radios and TVs would just automatically blast that song to let everyone know it’s time for a last minute dance party. In CNN's case it would have been "Nearer my God to thee".
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Feb 12, 2020 19:49
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JnfAr_YSxs
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Feb 12, 2020 19:50
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General Battuta posted:Hello great thread. Speaking of cryptography and secret orders, I’m doing research for a novel and it would really help the Authenticity if I could include some fake message traffic, all formatted fancy and poo poo. Do any of you know what kind of message formats would be used *during* a nuclear strike? I’m talking after the EAM has gone out and everyone’s launching - the chatter you’d get once the balloon is up. Vintage formats are okay but 2010s era is best. Obviously this is the kind of thing that’s highly classified but maybe I can fake it To see a format of what message traffic looks like, you can take a look at publicly available ALNAV (messages addressed to all of the Navy) and NAVADMIN messages. Obviously you don't have access to operational specifics, but the format will probably give some authenticity. If you google for 'message traffic format', you'll probably get some older message formats that haven't changed as much as you think they would have.
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Feb 12, 2020 20:05
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Yeah, I’ve seen that CNN video, gently caress that nonsense. It should’ve been the ending montage of Dogville with the credits edited out but keeping Bowie’s Young Americans.
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Feb 12, 2020 20:24
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Terrible grainy videos of brass band renditions of 19th century hymns are supposed to make you more ok with the imminent cleansing of the world by nuclear fire. And you know what, it does. (It's also apocryphally the last song the Titanic dudes played as it sank)
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Feb 12, 2020 20:27
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Nebakenezzer posted:Wait, in addition to sub hunting and naval recon, Canada wants to have the next gen act as mini............control centers? You can't get consensus for a project like that. I don't have the political power to get my thing through, you don't have the power to get your thing through, but together we can get something that does both or neither! LCS's concept started at a 500-ton distributed investment to enable the Navy to act without risking $1.8b warships and the $13b carrier its guarding (not counting personnel and operational risks). Once everyone caught onto the only new ship design in the running and thought about the capability gaps real, imagined, or looming within the littorals, the platform was transformed into a multimission capable behemoth larger than a WW2 destroyer (with an eighth of the crew). We don't hear about the focused effective development plans with narrow objectives and effective outcomes because they don't get funded. Squeaky wheels get the fix and two squeaky wheels are louder than one.
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Feb 12, 2020 20:28
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nurmie posted:This reminds me of this dude who put a T-34 on an empty plot of land in south London allegedly as a "gently caress you" to a local council. I'm just amazed nobodys given it a Warhammer 40k scheme yet.
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Feb 12, 2020 20:36
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Bulgaroctonus posted:Hey, semi related but what is the origin of the whole “the balloon going up thing” wrt nuclear war? Was 99 Luft Balloons gonna start playing and everyone in East/West Germany had like three minutes to party until nuclear hellfire? I might be beaten here but in the First World War, artillery observation was performed by observers in tethered balloons. The phase "balloon going up" means "it's officially started" as the first step in an attack was the observation balloons taking position. sidebar: I read the origin of "waiting for the other shoe to drop." It goes back to slum tenements in America in the 19th century. Among the many horrible things about them, sound traveled well. So you could hear it when people took off their shoes/boots, and went to bed, so two clops. Waiting for the other shoe, then was you waiting for the thing you expected to happen by habit, and it hasn't happened yet.
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Feb 12, 2020 20:40
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piL posted:LCS's concept started at a 500-ton distributed investment to enable the Navy to act without risking $1.8b warships and the $13b carrier its guarding (not counting personnel and operational risks). Once everyone caught onto the only new ship design in the running and thought about the capability gaps real, imagined, or looming within the littorals, the platform was transformed into a multimission capable behemoth larger than a WW2 destroyer (with an eighth of the crew). Luttwak attributes this to the procurement system. There's an entire component of the Air Force that does nothing but airborne radars and when a new plane comes along, they will push for it to have radar whether it makes sense or not, and the same is true for every other corner of the service, if only to establish their importance and usefulness and continued funding and staffing and promotions. When so few new model planes come along, and those planes are expected to have long service lives, then every department of the service is going to push to get their particular gizmo added in. And that's not even including the politicians (Senator X has a plant in his district that makes ground attack sensors; Senator X is now asking sharp questions in a hearing and demanding to know why the F-16 doesn't have ground attack ability). So while a cheap, limited, purpose-built platform may make perfect sense strategically and operationally, the procurement process makes sure that what emerges is bloated, overstuffed, and too expensive to build in the numbers originally imagined.
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Feb 12, 2020 21:52
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In conclusion, war is a racket after all  e to avoid sounding too glib - initial F16 run might not be the best example since initially it was a VFR only day fighter, but i deffo saw some of the pork barrel politics at play when some old block AEW aircraft were saved from budgetary obliteration. There was no actual money to upgrade those at the time which meant the wing had to figure out the asspain of having double the training streams/qualifications to juggle, and the previous get well plan of 'FRP excess manning to healthy numbers' was derailed. I've also heard stories about tanks nobody wants from the army side but those are hearsay. Guest2553 fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Feb 12, 2020 |
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Feb 12, 2020 22:25
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I don't think the story of the F-16 is one of failure. We got the development money back on that in value.
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Feb 12, 2020 22:35
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zoux posted:Terrible grainy videos of brass band renditions of 19th century hymns are supposed to make you more ok with the imminent cleansing of the world by nuclear fire. And you know what, it does. (It's also apocryphally the last song the Titanic dudes played as it sank) A perfectly appropriate segue into whatever dark age follows this one. I just hope they've re-recorded an HD version for when they need it. The one on youtube everyone uses looks and sounds like rear end.
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Feb 12, 2020 23:59
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piL posted:We don't hear about the focused effective development plans with narrow objectives and effective outcomes because they don't get funded. Squeaky wheels get the fix and two squeaky wheels are louder than one. That's silly, they absolutely get funded. I work on them all the time. It's just that they have much less publicity, and eight or nine figure price tags rather than twelve.
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Feb 13, 2020 00:03
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