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drat, the NL West plays the AL Central this year. Was hoping it would have been the AL West. Dodgers/Astros regular season series this year would be crazy good.
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Feb 13, 2020 18:50
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I've seen people here and on Twitter question why the younger players would follow Beltran's lead and I'm just imagining myself as a wet behind the ears 24 year old showing up to work and meeting a 40 year old coworker and yeah I can kind of see it Doesn't really apply to Altuve or Springer since they'd been around awhile
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Feb 13, 2020 18:55
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lol at everybody hand wringing over the apology being lackluster, what the hell did you expect? There's nothing the Astros can say or do to make things better at this point: they nakedly cheated and stole a world series as a result, the only thing that would even approach starting to fix that would be to strip them of their title, which was MLB's job and they're too chickenshit to do that.
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Feb 13, 2020 18:57
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Thom P. Tiers posted:drat, the NL West plays the AL Central this year. Was hoping it would have been the AL West. Dodgers/Astros regular season series this year would be crazy good. A group of Dodgers fans are already planning on buying a block of seats at the Angels home opener to get their digs in. Wouldn't surprise me if Yankees fans do something similar
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Feb 13, 2020 18:57
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Sydin posted:lol at everybody hand wringing over the apology being lackluster, what the hell did you expect? There's nothing the Astros can say or do to make things better at this point: they nakedly cheated and stole a world series as a result, the only thing that would even approach starting to fix that would be to strip them of their title, which was MLB's job and they're too chickenshit to do that. Right. So the Astros got away with it and the price of that is mockery and hate from the at large baseball fanbase until otherwise noted. If the Astros want to play into that with really terrible apologies that's on them. edit: See, this is the good stuff. https://twitter.com/jkalasinski/status/1228016936467881985 STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Feb 13, 2020 |
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Feb 13, 2020 19:03
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I get it now. If you let 75 win teams into a best of 3 wild card round, there'll be no need to cheat during the regular season! Manfred is playing 12 dimensional chess here.
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Feb 13, 2020 19:17
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Sydin posted:lol at everybody hand wringing over the apology being lackluster, what the hell did you expect? There's nothing the Astros can say or do to make things better at this point: they nakedly cheated and stole a world series as a result, the only thing that would even approach starting to fix that would be to strip them of their title, which was MLB's job and they're too chickenshit to do that. There's no hand-wringing going on. Everybody is just baffled at how the Astros keep having official press events where they dig the hole even deeper.
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Feb 13, 2020 19:28
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IcePhoenix posted:why go to all that effort when you can just read intruder's posts 
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Feb 13, 2020 19:30
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Yeah, no one expected some kind of "winning" apology because the right apology would have been "we cheated, that cheating got us a World Series, that win is tainted, we all look like cheaters, and MLB should have handed out suspensions at the very least, probably done more than give the owner a fine he didn't even notice, and maybe even strip the title even though that would have been largely ceremonial." Which obviously wasn't gonna happen but that doesn't mean we're not going to rip them for the terrible apologies that did happen. As I said, this is the price for getting away with it. And its all we can really do.
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Feb 13, 2020 19:31
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In all seriousness though they should vacate the title that year. Probably for 2018 as well frankly
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Feb 13, 2020 19:31
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https://twitter.com/JeffFletcherOCR/status/1228003624950759425?s=20 Hello darkness my old friend Angels pitcher injuries tally: 1
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Feb 13, 2020 19:33
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Inspector_666 posted:There's no hand-wringing going on. Everybody is just baffled at how the Astros keep having official press events where they dig the hole even deeper. This. Remember the company line of "Our AGM would never verbally abuse a female reporter!" right after the ALCS? They are loving terrible at PR.
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Feb 13, 2020 19:33
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On the plus side, this astros thing has sapped my enthusiasm for baseball to such a degree that I almost forgot how awful the cardinals offseason has been! So that’s good and exciting
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Feb 13, 2020 19:35
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thrilla in vanilla posted:In all seriousness though they should vacate the title that year. Probably for 2018 as well frankly I never cared that much about that because like... what does that accomplish? The Astros world would still regard it as a championship and would just get all martyr about it. Either way baseball remembers. We remember 1919. We remember Rose. We remember Maris' asterisk. We remember Bonds and the PEDs. Baseball is about that and whether the 2017 Championship is "official" or not we're gonna remember it now. But I also appreciate people who want it just so it feels like the Astros got some kind of punishment, even a totally performative one.
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Feb 13, 2020 19:37
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STAC Goat posted:I never cared that much about that because like... what does that accomplish? The Astros world would still regard it as a championship and would just get all martyr about it. Either way baseball remembers. We remember 1919. We remember Rose. We remember Maris' asterisk. We remember Bonds and the PEDs. Baseball is about that and whether the 2017 Championship is "official" or not we're gonna remember it now. Take the trophy and rings back and melt them. That would hurt. Noncompliance = ban. Manfred doing nothing is guaranteeing a ton of broken ribs and TBIs
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Feb 13, 2020 19:44
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thrilla in vanilla posted:In all seriousness though they should vacate the title that year. Probably for 2018 as well frankly  e. STAC Goat posted:I never cared that much about that because like... what does that accomplish? The Astros world would still regard it as a championship and would just get all martyr about it. Either way baseball remembers. We remember 1919. We remember Rose. We remember Maris' asterisk. We remember Bonds and the PEDs. Baseball is about that and whether the 2017 Championship is "official" or not we're gonna remember it now. It would prevent the Astros marketing themselves as the 2017 WS Champs, which means Crane would actually feel this a bit more in his wallet since they can't sell shirts/hats/flags/etc anymore. They'd also have to take the flag at their stadium down which does not erase the memories or feeling of 2017 but would be pretty dang meaningful symbolically imo.
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Feb 13, 2020 19:49
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lmao Bregman sucks
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Feb 13, 2020 19:50
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Nobody is gonna do poo poo to them, nothing matters, cheat while you can
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Feb 13, 2020 19:54
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Sydin posted:It would prevent the Astros marketing themselves as the 2017 WS Champs, which means Crane would actually feel this a bit more in his wallet since they can't sell shirts/hats/flags/etc anymore. They'd also have to take the flag at their stadium down which does not erase the memories or feeling of 2017 but would be pretty dang meaningful symbolically imo. Would it? Couldn't they just sell snarky shirts or whatever? Like I said, I think stripping them would just push them quicker into the "we are persecuted scapegoats, WITCH HUNT! FAKE NEWS!" place. Which is absolutely not a reason to not do it, but I think its all that would come from it. We'd feel a little better that the Astros got some kind of punishment, but it wouldn't really be a real punishment. That's really all. I'd be all for stripping them but like... I just don't see the point. The games have been played. Everyone feels how they're gonna feel about 2017. Crane and the players should have been punished. That's what would have mattered. Like no one cares when colleges get stripped of titles, do they? Its the "death penalty" that makes an impact, no?
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Feb 13, 2020 19:59
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STAC Goat posted:Would it? Couldn't they just sell snarky shirts or whatever? Like I said, I think stripping them would just push them quicker into the "we are persecuted scapegoats, WITCH HUNT! FAKE NEWS!" place. Which is absolutely not a reason to not do it, but I think its all that would come from it. We'd feel a little better that the Astros got some kind of punishment, but it wouldn't really be a real punishment. Yes. The Astros should be prevented from signing free agents, drafting, or re-signing players for a multitude of years. Also all contracts should be voided.
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Feb 13, 2020 20:03
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I wouldn't go that far myself, but a serious number of suspensions should have been handed out that probably would have all but crippled their 2020. And maybe some serious draft/international signing stuff.
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Feb 13, 2020 20:12
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lmfao https://twitter.com/jmackeypg/status/1228032841197477888?s=21
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Feb 13, 2020 20:16
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Player suspensions should absolutely happen and it's hilarious they aren't. These guys are walking around talking about how some games it was hard to decipher the codes but the trash can was available to bang when they could. Like, jesus christ, how do you not have any personal consequence for that.
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Feb 13, 2020 20:17
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lol this rules.
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Feb 13, 2020 20:17
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They were given immunity for information
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Feb 13, 2020 20:18
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Thom P. Tiers posted:drat, the NL West plays the AL Central this year. Was hoping it would have been the AL West. Dodgers/Astros regular season series this year would be crazy good. efb
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Feb 13, 2020 20:20
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STAC Goat posted:I wouldn't go that far myself, but a serious number of suspensions should have been handed out that probably would have all but crippled their 2020. And maybe some serious draft/international signing stuff. The problem is there are currently no explicit provisions in the CBA that MLB can point to saying "because you did [x] you get [y] fine/suspension/etc" in the way they can with PED's or domestic violence. So in order to punish the players MLB would have had to go to the MLBPA and say "hey we want to punish members of your union even though there's nothing in our CBA that says we can, you okay with that?" and the answer either would have been "No" or "Yes, but you need to agree to concede [thing that would cost MLB money] for us to agree". The last thing MLB wants to do right now is set precedent that they're willing to concede anything to the MLBPA with new CBA negotiations on the horizon.
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Feb 13, 2020 20:20
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bawfuls posted:The Angels play the Astros in Anaheim early this year and there’s already a large organized group of Dodger fans planning to raise hell at those games. Like I think Pantone or similar groups bought out a block of 500+ seats They should legit throw trash on the field. This is such bullshit
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Feb 13, 2020 20:21
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I don’t know why you think players can’t be punished for cheating ?
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Feb 13, 2020 20:21
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UZR IS BULLSHIT posted:They should legit throw trash on the field. This is such bullshit Throw trash on your own drat field, the Angels already have plenty on theirs
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Feb 13, 2020 20:23
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UZR IS BULLSHIT posted:They should legit throw trash on the field. This is such bullshit Yeah they'll probably start Pujols at 1st.
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Feb 13, 2020 20:23
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UZR IS BULLSHIT posted:They should legit throw trash on the field. This is such bullshit Yeah, trash the Angels field. That will show them.
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Feb 13, 2020 20:23
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I was at the game where a torrent of dollar hot dogs rained down on Chuck Knoblauch at the Metrodome. When I got older I felt bad about participating in something so petty. I'd throw as many $20 monster specialty dogs as I could at Altuve and Bregman this year
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Feb 13, 2020 20:24
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Devils Avocado posted:Yeah, trash the Angels field. That will show them. It's an added benefit
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Feb 13, 2020 20:25
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euphronius posted:I don’t know why you think players can’t be punished for cheating ? You already posted the arguments the PA would use in the last thread
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Feb 13, 2020 20:25
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Martin Prado announces retirement. https://twitter.com/mlbtraderumors/status/1228037975692468225?s=20
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Feb 13, 2020 20:29
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Sydin posted:The problem is there are currently no explicit provisions in the CBA that MLB can point to saying "because you did [x] you get [y] fine/suspension/etc" in the way they can with PED's or domestic violence. So in order to punish the players MLB would have had to go to the MLBPA and say "hey we want to punish members of your union even though there's nothing in our CBA that says we can, you okay with that?" and the answer either would have been "No" or "Yes, but you need to agree to concede [thing that would cost MLB money] for us to agree". The last thing MLB wants to do right now is set precedent that they're willing to concede anything to the MLBPA with new CBA negotiations on the horizon. I don't know where I stand on "MLB shouldn't be able to punish players for cheating unless explicitly negotiated in the CBA." But yeah, it would have been fought by the union and would have been dramatic at best and costly at worst. That shouldn't have mattered. They should have gone to the union, made a basic appeal that none of them wanted this shadow, and cut the deal that was necessary to give the players some kind of punishment that didn't end their careers. I know why it wasn't done. MLB didn't want to do any of that and hoped that they could cut the players a clean deal, take out a couple of meaningless middlemen, and let it go away. They obviously didn't anticipate people getting angrier because of MLB's handling of it and the Astros' arrogance/callousness. If it legitimately wasn't manageable then I think the next avenue would have been massive crippling of their draft/international signing system, publicly name the players in the investigation, and let the union deal with the public anger of protecting the cheaters. And of course ownership should have been punished in some meaningful way. BigBallChunkyTime posted:Martin Prado announces retirement. Huh. I didn't know Martin Prado played for the Yankees. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Feb 13, 2020 |
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Feb 13, 2020 20:31
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STAC Goat posted:I don't know where I stand on "MLB shouldn't be able to punish players for cheating unless explicitly negotiated in the CBA." But yeah, it would have been fought by the union and would have been dramatic at best and costly at worst. That shouldn't have mattered. They should have gone to the union, made a basic appeal that none of them wanted this shadow, and cut the deal that was necessary to give the players some kind of punishment that didn't end their careers. I know why it wasn't done. MLB didn't want to do any of that and hoped that they could cut the players a clean deal, take out a couple of meaningless middlemen, and let it go away. They obviously didn't anticipate people getting angrier because of MLB's handling of it and the Astros' arrogance/callousness. One thing that is missing from this analysis is the problem that some players like Musgrove and Grandal have alluded to, and hell, as was firmly stated in the original Athletic article, is that this is something that goes beyond the Astros. And if you hammer these players, or burn this organization to the ground, it becomes more likely that the all the other dirty stuff from around the league gets dumped out of retribution and spite. Supposedly the Astros handed over evidence that 8 other teams were up to the same kind of stuff. If your a part of that organization and you get the title stripped or an entire season(s) kneecapped, why wouldn't you leak all that to the press? Why wouldn't you poo poo all over everything as much as possible? The worst has already happened to you? What is there to lose?
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Feb 13, 2020 20:44
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Is there really no catch-all cheating rule in the CBA or the MLB rulebook that would be enforceable? The Astros certainly violated the honest competition of the game of baseball.
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Feb 13, 2020 20:56
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There probably is but the issue is management was telling them to do this/supporting it which .. makes the whole thing way more complicated
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Feb 13, 2020 20:57
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