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Carrier
May 12, 2009


420...69...9001...
I really enjoyed City of Stairs but bounced off the second one pretty hard, the changing of the main PoV really killed my interest which I know is something I really should have just given it more of a chance over but eh.

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Black Griffon
Mar 12, 2005

Now, in the quantum moment before the closure, when all become one. One moment left. One point of space and time.

I know who you are. You are destiny.


Crimpolioni posted:

High praise indeed

Okay so I'm mostly here attacking FYAD, not defending Bennet, so I'm forced to agree with this.

pradmer
Mar 31, 2009

Follow me for more books on special!
Grave Peril (Dresden Files 3) by Jim Butcher - $1.99
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001650UDA/
Hopefully this one is better than the second book.

Ornamented Death
Jan 25, 2006

Pew pew!

pradmer posted:

Grave Peril (Dresden Files 3) by Jim Butcher - $1.99
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001650UDA/
Hopefully this one is better than the second book.

It's a lot better. Common wisdom holds that it's best to start here and skip the first two books.

Junkenstein
Oct 22, 2003

Carrier posted:

the changing of the main PoV really killed my interest

Worth it for the third book's POV.

Some Pinko Commie
Jun 9, 2009

CNC! Easy as 1️⃣2️⃣3️⃣!

Ornamented Death posted:

It's a lot better. Common wisdom holds that it's best to start here and skip the first two books.

Just be sure to stop at Changes.

fez_machine
Nov 27, 2004

Gravy Jones posted:

what a loving stupid victim blaming sentiment, stop celebrating bullying and humiilating people... it's nothing to do with the quality of writing and everything to do with being lovely people


What if he just left because bullying is just plain lovely and he wasn't a fan of it and all the ironic homophobia? How would you tell the difference? Would you be gleefully high-fiving the fact that he got bullied off the forum ten years later?

I found the original thread: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3249773

and you're right! instead of hillarious burn after hilarious burn on the poor prose quality of "Mr Shivers" it's just pages of people empty quoting the word "human being"

Kchama
Jul 25, 2007

Ornamented Death posted:

It's a lot better. Common wisdom holds that it's best to start here and skip the first two books.

I found it to be loving terrible. Also I hear common wisdom say it's best to skip the first THREE books and start at Summer Knight.


Summer Knight is better, but I still didn't like it.

90s Cringe Rock
Nov 29, 2006
:gay:
uncommon wisdom is when you skip the dresden files and go straight to the dresden files crossover fanfic.

Kchama
Jul 25, 2007

90s Cringe Rock posted:

uncommon wisdom is when you skip the dresden files and go straight to the dresden files crossover fanfic.

Would those be BETTER or WORSE than Dresden Files?

90s Cringe Rock
Nov 29, 2006
:gay:

Kchama posted:

Would those be BETTER or WORSE than Dresden Files?
They'd probably be what you really wanted if you were going to read Dresden Files.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010
willfully illiterate, aggressively miserable sourpuss whose sole raison d’etre is to put other people down for liking the wrong things

Kchama posted:

Would those be BETTER or WORSE than Dresden Files?

Yes.

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









fez_machine posted:

I found the original thread: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3249773

and you're right! instead of hillarious burn after hilarious burn on the poor prose quality of "Mr Shivers" it's just pages of people empty quoting the word "human being"

lol classic fyad lol

StrixNebulosa
Feb 14, 2012

You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA

Kchama posted:

Would those be BETTER or WORSE than Dresden Files?

Guaranteed less sexism, so better

Kesper North
Nov 3, 2011

EMERGENCY POWER TO PARTY

occamsnailfile posted:

gently caress FYAD and good riddance.

Bennett improved even in the space from American Elsewhere to the Divine Cities trilogy, he's still in the 'buy on sale or trade for' level for me but definitely readable.

Meanwhile I've been reading a weird one, Yarn by Jon Armstrong. It's about an elite tailor in a surreal dystopian fashion-dominated hypercommercial future dominated by corporate warfare. But it's not about that in the usual--it is mostly, constantly, about clothes and how they make you and how they are made. The author manages to create a lot of jargon and slang that's comprehensible but still sounds exotic, and it travels at a pretty brisk pace. It's a world that's hypersexualized and commercialized, where people talk in brand-coded riddles. I don't know if I'm going to keep it when I'm done but it's been an interesting ride so far.

That sounds kinda fun. I don't suppose they are a plain and simple tailor...?

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









sebmojo posted:

lol classic fyad lol

there's actually some p funny stuff in there, but the book looks fine they're mainly just writing parodies and laughing at them

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952




Junkenstein posted:

Worth it for the third book's POV.

The third book is solid gold. I'd say he improved a lot over the course of writing the trilogy. The POV changes probably helped with that, since they break up the project into discrete pieces that have to be treated separately. A lot of trilogies are just one continuous thing cut into thirds at convenient points, these three books are each their own thing.

pseudanonymous
Aug 30, 2008

When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.

Ornamented Death posted:

It's a lot better. Common wisdom holds that it's best to start here and skip the first two books.

I think the common wisdom is to skip Butcher entirely and read a good writer.

Gnoman
Feb 12, 2014

Come, all you fair and tender maids
Who flourish in your pri-ime
Beware, take care, keep your garden fair
Let Gnoman steal your thy-y-me
Le-et Gnoman steal your thyme




StrixNebulosa posted:

Guaranteed less sexism, so better

The sexism in Dresden drops off dramatically after the first two books (which, not coincidentally, is when the books started being written after the first one was published), while fanfic authors have a tendency to insert massive amounts. Even the first two probably don't have as much sexism as the fanfics, and something like 80%+ of the sexism in the Dreseden Files is concentrated in books 1 and 2 as long as you don't decide it is there and start manufacturing it yourself.

Some Pinko Commie
Jun 9, 2009

CNC! Easy as 1️⃣2️⃣3️⃣!

pseudanonymous posted:

I think the common wisdom is to skip Butcher entirely and read a good writer.

Ben Aaronovitch or Benedict Jacka for better authors in the same general genre.

Maybe Elliott James's Pax Arcana series.

Steer clear of Sandman Slim or Iron Druid books.

Some Pinko Commie
Jun 9, 2009

CNC! Easy as 1️⃣2️⃣3️⃣!

Gnoman posted:

The sexism in Dresden drops off dramatically after the first two books (which, not coincidentally, is when the books started being written after the first one was published), while fanfic authors have a tendency to insert massive amounts. Even the first two probably don't have as much sexism as the fanfics, and something like 80%+ of the sexism in the Dreseden Files is concentrated in books 1 and 2 as long as you don't decide it is there and start manufacturing it yourself.

On the other hand, justifying the main character allowing vampires that literally feed on rape to live is a bad look no matter who the character is.

Gnoman
Feb 12, 2014

Come, all you fair and tender maids
Who flourish in your pri-ime
Beware, take care, keep your garden fair
Let Gnoman steal your thy-y-me
Le-et Gnoman steal your thyme




biracial bear for uncut posted:

On the other hand, justifying the main character allowing vampires that literally feed on rape to live is a bad look no matter who the character is.

This is a legitimate criticism.

Technically, they can live off of other emotions and/or consensual encounters, but the definition of "consensual" gets really, really fuzzy when your mere presence supernaturally induces desire.

Like the love potion in Book 1, Butcher pretty clearly dropped in an existing supernatural concept (incubi and succubi in this case) without fully going through the ramifications.

pseudanonymous
Aug 30, 2008

When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.
I really like good "urban fantasy" by which I mean books like American Gods or Kraken: An Anatomy. I really wanted to like The Dresden Files. I like the Laundry files in spite of its many flaws and annoying nerd jokes because I love the concept so much.

I read the first three Dresden files books and hated them so much I was driven to write an essay about how bad they were and why. I sent that essay to a friend who had recommended and liked them. She read the essay and was like "well you're not wrong, but if you read more, like after book 7 they start getting good".

Some Pinko Commie
Jun 9, 2009

CNC! Easy as 1️⃣2️⃣3️⃣!

pseudanonymous posted:

I really like good "urban fantasy" by which I mean books like American Gods or Kraken: An Anatomy. I really wanted to like The Dresden Files. I like the Laundry files in spite of its many flaws and annoying nerd jokes because I love the concept so much.

I read the first three Dresden files books and hated them so much I was driven to write an essay about how bad they were and why. I sent that essay to a friend who had recommended and liked them. She read the essay and was like "well you're not wrong, but if you read more, like after book 7 they start getting good".

Urban Fantasy is hard to find good writers for.

Ben Aaronovitch is probably the most fun to read if you can mentally imagine the British accents (the audiobook narrator is loving awesome at this).

StrixNebulosa
Feb 14, 2012

You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA

biracial bear for uncut posted:

Urban Fantasy is hard to find good writers for.

Ben Aaronovitch is probably the most fun to read if you can mentally imagine the British accents (the audiobook narrator is loving awesome at this).

I am desperate for you to read some of the women in the genre, they're so good. I've posted about them in the UF thread, there's a lot more to the genre than men in trenchcoats doing noir stuff.

Some Pinko Commie
Jun 9, 2009

CNC! Easy as 1️⃣2️⃣3️⃣!

StrixNebulosa posted:

I am desperate for you to read some of the women in the genre, they're so good. I've posted about them in the UF thread, there's a lot more to the genre than men in trenchcoats doing noir stuff.

Were any of them not romance-centric?

StrixNebulosa
Feb 14, 2012

You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA

biracial bear for uncut posted:

Were any of them not romance-centric?

Anita Blake 1-3, Chronicles of Elantra, Jill Kismet 1, Hollows 1, Mercy Thompson (romance starts later in the series), Jane Yellowrock, Sonja Blue.

Some of the above have romantic elements in them but they're not focused on the romance. And yes, I know Anita Blake gets worse as it goes along but 1-3 were really solid noir horror pieces.

A human heart
Oct 10, 2012

sebmojo posted:

there's actually some p funny stuff in there, but the book looks fine they're mainly just writing parodies and laughing at them

This is comically awful, no wonder people made fun of it.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Kchama
Jul 25, 2007

Gnoman posted:

The sexism in Dresden drops off dramatically after the first two books (which, not coincidentally, is when the books started being written after the first one was published), while fanfic authors have a tendency to insert massive amounts. Even the first two probably don't have as much sexism as the fanfics, and something like 80%+ of the sexism in the Dreseden Files is concentrated in books 1 and 2 as long as you don't decide it is there and start manufacturing it yourself.

No it really doesn't. And the sexism in the first two books are crazy high to begin with. Like having a character in the second book whose entire purpose is for Dresden to call her a 'bitch' over and over because haha get it she's a werewolf?

Dresden is the worst.

tildes
Nov 16, 2018

fez_machine posted:

really defending the idea that easily mocked fake as hell Old-timey hobo dialect horror is unreflective of a person's writing

It's much harder to bully an author that has prose quality backing them.

I'd like to see someone try to bully Samuel R. Delany out of a forum based purely on his writing style.

This has involved an awful lot of talking about someone’s debut novel from literally a decade ago. People actually often get better at things when they do them for ten years. The City of series is good. Foundryside was solid as well. Those are 10000% more representative of his current writing than his first novel since, you know, they literally are his current writing.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005

Pillbug

StrixNebulosa posted:

Anita Blake 1-3, Chronicles of Elantra, Jill Kismet 1, Hollows 1, Mercy Thompson (romance starts later in the series), Jane Yellowrock, Sonja Blue.

Some of the above have romantic elements in them but they're not focused on the romance. And yes, I know Anita Blake gets worse as it goes along but 1-3 were really solid noir horror pieces.

hollows not so much

Some Pinko Commie
Jun 9, 2009

CNC! Easy as 1️⃣2️⃣3️⃣!

Kchama posted:

No it really doesn't. And the sexism in the first two books are crazy high to begin with. Like having a character in the second book whose entire purpose is for Dresden to call her a 'bitch' over and over because haha get it she's a werewolf?

Dresden is the worst.

One of the main supporting characters in Skin Game (the last book I read of the series) expressed shock over Dresden not reacting in a sexist manner when one of the woman characters got the poo poo kicked out of her by the big bad. It didn't get better except in reference to how loving bad it was in book one.

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









A human heart posted:

This is comically awful, no wonder people made fun of it.

Go on?

Stupid_Sexy_Flander
Mar 14, 2007

Is a man not entitled to the haw of his maw?
Grimey Drawer
Something to remember about the Dresden files is they were written a while back (he's like 4 years between the last one and the new one, and it's something like book 14? of the series), so the earlier books are going to have annoying poo poo in them. The world has changed a lot in the last 20 years, and the books reflect the time in which they were written. They get better as they go along but the first couple are rough.

That being said, the entire series is basically Dresden dbzing his way out of problems after getting his rear end kicked (although the ending to summer knight was a great example of out of the box thinking).

For good (and oddly plentiful) UF you are probably going to enjoy Craig Schaefer. I don't think he's human so much as a sentient ai who likes to write. His Faust series is great, and even with a lust demon as a main character, she's less of a lust filled reason to gently caress than an admittedly terrifying character. Way less sex than you'd imagine too.

Joel Spigg also wrote a couple of UF style books, in the same sort of style as A Lee Martinez and they are pretty great.

Glenn Buillion has a great series with Damned & Cursed.

Joe Nassise had a great series that kicked off with Eyes to See.

Ken Lange has a decent series going as well.

Rick Gualtieri has the Tome of Bill series and 2 others at the moment, and they are pretty good.

Richard Kadrey has the Sandman Slim series and it's very gritty noir feeling UF, but he also has the Coop series which is more of a comedic UF (and hilarious).

There's a lot of options out there. Dresden sort of kickstarted the big UF genre rush, since post DF a shitton of books came out vs pre DF when there wasn't that much UF to be read. I think it was the confluence of e-readers, self publishing, and Amazon all coming to a head around that time that really kicked it into high gear. Dude had amazing timing.

Anyway, I forgot where I was going with this so just order Carrier Wave by Robert Brockway cause he's awesome and got hosed when he got fired from cracked.

scary ghost dog
Aug 5, 2007
has anyone read the witcher books....i just finished them and i thjnk the last one is the best fantasy book ive ever read.

scary ghost dog
Aug 5, 2007
and listen: ive read a lot of fantasy books. and lady of the lake absolutely destroys them all, owing largely in part to the painstaking character and setting development of the previous novels. im utterly in awe of this book

scary ghost dog
Aug 5, 2007
this poo poo is like the perfect apotheosis of all of the most interesting trends in fantasy over the last 20 years and it was published in 1999

StrixNebulosa
Feb 14, 2012

You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA

awesmoe posted:

hollows not so much

That's why I said Hollows 1 - I'm starting to read 2 and enjoying this idiot witch stealing a fish.

I do enjoy how a lot of these series work well as standalone books with sequels. Like - oh I forgot another one! Little to no romance Urban Fantasy: Kitty Norville and the Midnight Hour. Werewolf starts a talk show, gets herself out of an abusive pack, solves a murder, gets hunted by a bounty hunter, pisses off some vampires, it's great. The sequel, Kitty Norville Goes to Washington, is weaker due to the author not understanding how to pace things (it worked in 1 but not in 2) and how.... weirdly idyllic the politics are. Like, the most white-bread "this is how senators work" imaginable. I'll eventually read the third. But ahem. The first Kitty book is genuinely great and I loved it.

StrixNebulosa
Feb 14, 2012

You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA

Also, since I'm in a chatty mood and really love urban fantasy as a genre, I want to be clear: I do differentiate between UF and PNR (paranormal romance). A lot of lady-written UF does dabble in romance, with romantic leads or love triangles (ugh) but never to the point of overwhelming the book and detracting from the plot. Or at least it does this later in series where the author is more invested in the characters - see Anita Blake, see Kate Daniels - at which point either you're invested and keep reading, or you bail. (I'm only on Anita 5 so I don't know how bad it'll get yet, and I ditched Kate Daniels because I hate how they write relationships. Also the undeserved redemption of a certain character who decided it would be better to let children die than quit working for the cops)

Meanwhile PNR is a character study with a thin coating of plot. Incorruptible by Lilith Saintcrow is a great example of one with no sex, but a core that was entirely about Mike and Jenna learning to love and trust each other. Oh, and killer demons roadtrip adventure. Or you get the more stereotypical PNRs - I'm fond of Nalini Singh's Slave to Sensation, which has hints of interesting worldbuilding and a plot (psychics rule the world but they deleted their emotions! but now there's a serial killer on the loose! and werewolves hate the psychics!) but so much of the book is spent on the lead couple falling in love and banging, banging, and solving the murder. Then banging.

But in general I enjoy how the lady-written UF has this acknowledgement that monster hunting is hard work, and that their leads would enjoy a partner...maybe. Anita Blake starts out ready to shoot men on sight, which is great. She thaws eventually.

... Man. I've got books by Benedict Jacka on hand, but I haven't read them yet. I'm realizing the only dude-written UFs that I've read have been Dresden (sexist garbage), bits of Rivers of London (should retry it), Laundry Files (loved book 1, not loving book 2), and Paul Cornell (grimdark grimdark grimdark I lost interest very fast).

It's so weird reading a genre so thoroughly dominated by women, like I've stepped into a mirror world. Normally I'm having to wade through the piles and piles of men to find the ladies, but nope, they're all here writing killer stuff.

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Kesper North
Nov 3, 2011

EMERGENCY POWER TO PARTY
Seconding Craig Schaefer urban fantasy rec. He keeps getting both more ambitious and more character-driven with his stories as he gains experience, and the narratives between his series interweave really well without requiring you to read every book. (Which I have, because they're good.) Definitely Hollywood movies in book form, but quirky and introspective ones with great throughlines.

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