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Skippy McPants
Mar 19, 2009

Trojan Kaiju posted:



I guess it was part of an AMA, not quite an interview.

This is cool; I appreciate that they're going with a slower burn to let the characters develop. Much as I want more queer representation in media, I very much prefer when it doesn't feel like tokenism or fan service.

Additionally helps to highlight Harley and Ivy are both bi, which is a distinction that also doesn't get enough attention.

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A big flaming stink
Apr 26, 2010
also catherine is absolutely just as misogynistic in a japanese context as it is in a western context, but such ideology is more tolerated by japanese's mainstream society.

watho
Aug 2, 2013


The real world will, again tomorrow, function and run without me.

RareAcumen posted:

Now discorvering that some people call bad cartoons Family Guys like some people call all sodas Coke or your mom calls every console a Nintendo and I Do Not Like It.

nobody does that

Doctor Spaceman
Jul 6, 2010

"Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."
https://twitter.com/PhilosophyTube/status/1230068583100751873?s=20

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017

https://twitter.com/SamSykesSwears/status/1229948255628230656

Ninja "There's no reason field goal kickers can't make all their kicks unlike Fortnite which is hard and real" Ninjason being Ninja and a fantasy author having the best response.

Augus
Mar 9, 2015


A big flaming stink posted:

also catherine is absolutely just as misogynistic in a japanese context as it is in a western context, but such ideology is more tolerated by japanese's mainstream society.

what seems to be lost on a lot of Americans is that Japan does in fact have its own feminist and LGBT movements, they’re not just a homogenous conservative cultural blob.

also homophobia was largely imported to Japan from the west, because of course it was.

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

by Azathoth

A big flaming stink posted:

also catherine is absolutely just as misogynistic in a japanese context as it is in a western context, but such ideology is more tolerated by japanese's mainstream society.

what time is it? It's 'racism, but woke' time!!!! Whooo! The savage oriental simply is too primitive to understand things, never mind that like half of the conservative bullshit of Japanese society was literally forced on them at gunpoint by the west, they made a game with boobs so they're basically just rape monsters who lynch gays or whatever.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

"According to Wikipedia" there is a black hole that emits zionist hawking radiation where my brain should have been

I really should just shut the fuck up and stop posting forever
College Slice
My understanding from watching LP's of the original Catherine was that you weren't really supposed to emphasize with the two timing cheater male protagonist and if you did it should cause you to feel shame and the whole thing is about like, exploring the guilt you/the main character feels no? Isn't that part of the point of the questionnaire you do at the end of each level and see where you stand relative to everyone else?

Like all the dream sequences are you, and a bunch of other lovely guys, being chased by the anthropomorphic representation of your guilty conscience which is a jungian reflection of your real world actions (cheating on your significant other with a 'cooler hipper' bad girl version of her).

At least that's what I got out of it.

Bug Squash
Mar 18, 2009

sexpig by night posted:

what time is it? It's 'racism, but woke' time!!!! Whooo! The savage oriental simply is too primitive to understand things, never mind that like half of the conservative bullshit of Japanese society was literally forced on them at gunpoint by the west, they made a game with boobs so they're basically just rape monsters who lynch gays or whatever.

No-one is blaming them for having that poo poo imposed on them, but Japan has autonomy now so you absolutely can blame any rear end in a top hat over there who is continuing to be a regressive rear end in a top hat.

Viewtiful Jew
Apr 21, 2007
Mench'n-a-go-go-baby!
https://twitter.com/verge/status/1229820921185259520

This would be a bad idea for any content creator yes? Like when you're already making content on a platform constantly changing the rules every year or so, signing up for this with Patreon seems like an even worse stability move for a person.

Like it sounds great though if you get a high from anxiety and constant calls from collectors wanting to know where their money is.

Leal
Oct 2, 2009

Bug Squash posted:

No-one is blaming them for having that poo poo imposed on them, but Japan has autonomy now so you absolutely can blame any rear end in a top hat over there who is continuing to be a regressive rear end in a top hat.

Yeah its really coming across as a convenient excuse to absolve them of the poo poo they do when they can fully stand up and say "no, I wont do this". See people blaming the awful stuff in anime as "They're just APPEALING TO THE WEST cause CAPITALISM"

What came first, the anime or the western weebs.

The Japanese people aren't a noble savage tribe who have been led astray by white saviors claiming to be in their best interests.

Senerio
Oct 19, 2009

Ooh! Are we messing with Adora?



Leal posted:

What came first, the anime or the western weebs.

Western weebs, by about a century...

Leal
Oct 2, 2009

Viewtiful Jew posted:

https://twitter.com/verge/status/1229820921185259520

This would be a bad idea for any content creator yes? Like when you're already making content on a platform constantly changing the rules every year or so, signing up for this with Patreon seems like an even worse stability move for a person.

Like it sounds great though if you get a high from anxiety and constant calls from collectors wanting to know where their money is.

Also this is a scam

Bonaventure
Jun 23, 2005

by sebmojo

Bug Squash posted:

No-one is blaming them for having that poo poo imposed on them, but Japan has autonomy now so you absolutely can blame any rear end in a top hat over there who is continuing to be a regressive rear end in a top hat.

no you see but for the West's malign influence, the Eastern man is noble, pure, innocent by nature and incapable of either hatred or conservatism; now let me lecture you about racism

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
Acting like every bad thing is the fault of 19th century gunboat diplomacy is a pretty narrow way of looking at things. For starters it suggests that western influence was a one-time thing that made everything bad and that there has been no change ever since then. Yes you can look to it as a root cause for many messed up cultural quirks but it also absolves them of any wrongdoings going forward. It's infantilizing to suggest that foreign cultures were all innocent and things only got bad when white people showed up. You see it all the time with regards to American first nations when there is plenty of evidence that they could be giant assholes on their own well before Europeans landed on the shoreline.

You can't ignore the impact that colonialism has on the target countries but to suggest that all bad things that ever happen there since are the fault of colonialism is reductive thinking that consciously or not perpetuates white exceptionalism by suggesting that they could only learn to be as bad by emulating us.

Katt
Nov 14, 2017

RareAcumen posted:

Now discorvering that some people call bad cartoons Family Guys like some people call all sodas Coke or your mom calls every console a Nintendo and I Do Not Like It.

I had a friend who's mom was a gamer and she called bosses "dragons" So she told me about the dragon in the Ocarina of time water temple and I was so disappointed by the actual final boss (absolutely not a dragon). I only caught on later when she talked about the "first and third dragon" in a different dungeon.

Dias
Feb 20, 2011

by sebmojo
Frankly, I think the only difference between Japanese and Western culture is that Japan skewers older so boomer behavior and voices still drown out progressives.

Archer666
Dec 27, 2008

Dias posted:

Frankly, I think the only difference between Japanese and Western culture is that Japan skewers older so boomer behavior and voices still drown out progressives.

It's more that the Japanese are even more apathetic when it comes to politics. So while you might have "progressive" people and "regular" people voicing concert on LGBT issues or similar things, that's not translating into voters.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.
The Japanese 60s student movement was wild.

Archer666
Dec 27, 2008

MonsieurChoc posted:

The Japanese 60s student movement was wild.

Once the Japanese do get interested in politics, ooooh boy.

Katt
Nov 14, 2017


Was the mental breakdown when he stanned for Contra and then had to do a Kevin Spacey to try and pacify the backlash?

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
its not that theyre more apathetic necessarily its just that the left is even more splintered and ineffectual than america's leading to decades of basically continuous center-right rule, which has beaten a lot of people down. like there's plenty of people who are old enough to remember the 60s student protests and how they still arrived at the point they're at now despite all that.

at least abe didnt get enough votes to bring back the japanese empire

anyway hes not wrong that a lot of japanese homophobia is rooted in christian and american values being distorted as they were brought over, the old japanese view of homosexuality isn't exactly 'woke' but it's pretty different from the 'they all wanna gently caress kids' type conservative stuff you see most of the older right wingers in japan trot out, and its not like they got those opinions in a vacuum. not that homophobia wouldnt exist otherwise but the specific brand and the way its used as a bulwark against other progressive views is 100% rooted in american christianity's cultural footprint

Archer666
Dec 27, 2008

Katt posted:

Was the mental breakdown when he stanned for Contra and then had to do a Kevin Spacey to try and pacify the backlash?

Could be the harassment he got from that entire mess.

Augus
Mar 9, 2015


“Doing a kevin spacey”???
Can we, like, just not with that?

Augus fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Feb 19, 2020

Senerio
Oct 19, 2009

Ooh! Are we messing with Adora?



Augus posted:

“Doing a kevin spacey”???
Can we, like, just not with that?

Seriously. Did he like come out as gay and make it seem like that was the source of the backlash, like Spacey did?

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Dawgstar posted:

https://twitter.com/SamSykesSwears/status/1229948255628230656

Ninja "There's no reason field goal kickers can't make all their kicks unlike Fortnite which is hard and real" Ninjason being Ninja and a fantasy author having the best response.

lol, what a loving idiot. like i sorta get what he might be trying to say(try to learn from losses and improve) but he words it so horribly that he makes it a terrible lesson.

Tesseraction
Apr 5, 2009

Senerio posted:

Seriously. Did he like come out as gay and make it seem like that was the source of the backlash, like Spacey did?

Well I presume it wasn't the "all his accusers mysteriously die" part.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.

Endorph posted:

its not that theyre more apathetic necessarily its just that the left is even more splintered and ineffectual than america's leading to decades of basically continuous center-right rule, which has beaten a lot of people down. like there's plenty of people who are old enough to remember the 60s student protests and how they still arrived at the point they're at now despite all that.

at least abe didnt get enough votes to bring back the japanese empire

anyway hes not wrong that a lot of japanese homophobia is rooted in christian and american values being distorted as they were brought over, the old japanese view of homosexuality isn't exactly 'woke' but it's pretty different from the 'they all wanna gently caress kids' type conservative stuff you see most of the older right wingers in japan trot out, and its not like they got those opinions in a vacuum. not that homophobia wouldnt exist otherwise but the specific brand and the way its used as a bulwark against other progressive views is 100% rooted in american christianity's cultural footprint

Also the CIA making sure no leftists got important in government, Gladio-style.

watho
Aug 2, 2013


The real world will, again tomorrow, function and run without me.

there are obviously lgbt and feminist voices in japanese society and nerd media (although way more in the underground art and music scenes than among otaku) but speaking from experience there are some massive societal issues when it comes to the whole treatment of lgbt people

Twincityhacker
Feb 18, 2011

Or it could be his long standing mental health issues briefly got worse. That he's talked about multiple times.

Debbie Does Dagon
Jul 8, 2005



Katt posted:

Was the mental breakdown when he stanned for Contra and then had to do a Kevin Spacey to try and pacify the backlash?

Yeah, he's made videos about his struggle with suicidal thoughts, so not cool?

Archer666
Dec 27, 2008

MonsieurChoc posted:

Also the CIA making sure no leftists got important in government, Gladio-style.

Not sure how much help Japan would need from the CIA. They were very good at hunting and exterminating anything Leftist after the Meiji Restoration... and that pic I posted is a socialist party getting stabbed by a ultra nationalist student.

Ibram Gaunt
Jul 22, 2009

Philotube going "I'm a bisexual btw" as a way to shield himself from the awful statements he made during the contra stuff was pretty tacky but the kevin spacey comparison is a bit much lol

Sydin
Oct 29, 2011

Another spring commute
I only played Catherine once on launch, and that was mostly because I was horny college kid and there was a sexy anime waifu on the cover. Unsurprisingly with such an attitude I found nothing wrong with it at the time. Last year I watched Joseph Anderson stream it which was my first exposure to the game in eight years, and uh... wow, Erica. Atlus could not possibly have handled including a trans woman in their game any worse, I thought.

...Then I found out what they do with her in one of the Full Body endings :yikes:

Atlus in particular is really bad with LGBT representation. IIRC there's also a running "gag" in Persona 5 where two flamboyantly gay men want to rape Ryuji.

Ibram Gaunt
Jul 22, 2009

Atlus is far behind the curve with this crap but people seem to think that they for some reason represent how every japanese game dev and person feels which is stupid.

Sydin
Oct 29, 2011

Another spring commute
Yeah there's good and bad representation across Japanese media, just like there's good and bad representation in Western media. Japan is definitely on the whole probably tipped more towards "bad" than "good", at least moreso than the west, but using Atlus to condemn all Japanese media is cherry-picking.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
yeah atlus is subpar by japanese standards and gets criticism for this stuff in japan. idk why people act like nobody in japan ever calls atlus homophobic.

Sydin posted:

Yeah there's good and bad representation across Japanese media, just like there's good and bad representation in Western media. Japan is definitely on the whole probably tipped more towards "bad" than "good", at least moreso than the west, but using Atlus to condemn all Japanese media is cherry-picking.

i'd sayi ts kinda hard to tip this one way or the other because the issues their media has is different. due to how the japanese manga industry is structured there's way more prominent art made by just a gay/lesbian/trans person, about gay/lesbian/trans people, than there is in america, but on the flipside due to it being a defined genre a lot of that stuff can be pigeon holed into certain tropes. which is an issue with american media about gay people too, but it's not so codified. tv dramas in japan tend to run pretty conservative and appealing to olds, compared to the more neoliberal angle of american daytime dramas/prestige tv, but on the flipside there's less 'this is what being progressive is' type forcefeeding.

its pretty hard to say one is better or worse, they're just different countries and different media environments with their own successes and baggage.

Endorph fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Feb 19, 2020

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
imo i also think an environment where people are free to release and (minorly) profit from fanworks like japan has is also important to gay art existing but thats kind of a different conversation

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

"According to Wikipedia" there is a black hole that emits zionist hawking radiation where my brain should have been

I really should just shut the fuck up and stop posting forever
College Slice
Isn't it also a bit of a thing, that complicates it a little, is that when it comes to being trans or transitioning that in many cases an individual who would be seen as trans in the west will not identify as trans themselves until they basically complete their transition? I think this was a thing in one manga that comes up in the romance manga and light novel thread.

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Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Ibram Gaunt posted:

Atlus is far behind the curve with this crap but people seem to think that they for some reason represent how every japanese game dev and person feels which is stupid.

yeah. like yoko taro is weirdly progressive when it comes to stuff. he has his issues obviously but its not atlus level.

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