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cock hero flux
Apr 17, 2011



Floodkiller posted:

Double posting, but actually I was wrong and oh my god I'm so sorry: nobody has had claw damage since Fists of Thunder were merged in 2018. Whoops, heh heh heh...:suicide:

that explains why all my attempts at playing felid have been even less successful than I expected

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someone awful.
Sep 7, 2007


same, but trolls

Vim Fuego
Jun 1, 2000

I LITERALLY SLEEP IN A RACING CAR. DO YOU?
p.s. ask me about my subscription mattress
Ultra Carp
*crawl dev-ishly* let's just remove claws entirely, no one missed them for a year and a half and removal streamlines the game aesthetic

cock hero flux
Apr 17, 2011



Vim Fuego posted:

*crawl dev-ishly* let's just remove claws entirely, no one missed them for a year and a half and removal streamlines the game aesthetic

yes, and then remove trolls also because now they're too close to ogres

Haifisch
Nov 13, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender

Floodkiller posted:

Double posting, but actually I was wrong and oh my god I'm so sorry: nobody has had claw damage since Fists of Thunder were merged in 2018. Whoops, heh heh heh...:suicide:
Crawl code never fails to impress in new and exciting ways.

Floodkiller
May 31, 2011

To make up for it, the logic is still broken in a way that characters with Claws 1/2 wearing gloves will keep their claw bonus and I'll just leave it like that instead of fixing it the right way (imagine it's Wolverine ruining a new set of gloves every time). I also added some special descriptors for Fists of Thunder for your unarmed description.

Captainsalami
Apr 16, 2010

I told you you'd pay!
God drat this all explains why my troll attempts went so bad.

icantfindaname
Jul 1, 2008


Is there any list of all the unrands that are possible for each book category for archaeologist?

Floodkiller
May 31, 2011

icantfindaname posted:

Is there any list of all the unrands that are possible for each book category for archaeologist?

Look at the entire unrand list, then:

https://github.com/Floodkiller/crawl/blob/gooncrawl/crawl-ref/source/artefact.cc
Under archaeologist_unrands() for the potential artifacts for each species (aka category name).

https://github.com/Floodkiller/crawl/blob/gooncrawl/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc
Under _setup_archaeologist_crate() for the manual they are paired with.

Victory Position
Mar 16, 2004

cock hero flux posted:

yes, and then remove trolls also because now they're too close to ogres

unironically remove giant clubs and giant spiked clubs until you can cast Sticks to Snakes on them to make huge rear end wyverns or dragons

someone awful.
Sep 7, 2007


Victory Position posted:

unironically remove giant clubs and giant spiked clubs until you can cast Sticks to Snakes on them to make huge rear end wyverns or dragons

wyverns and dragons aren't snakes!!!!

they should turn into naga, straight up

Surprise T Rex
Apr 9, 2008

Dinosaur Gum
Came back to Crawl for the first time in forever, and finally won. I think it was my 599th game I won as a MiBe, owing mainly to Trog gifting me a vamp Greatsword and a Triple Sword of Flaming that I later branded via scroll to Draining. I'm not gonna lie, I'm enjoying vanilla/mainline/trunk a fair bit at the minute, and I'm having a go at winning a HoFe as my next 'project'.

Having a bit of a crack at porting some QoL changes to Gooncrawl over the past few days since I think the overall philosophy of Gooncrawl is more interesting, and some of the QoL stuff should come over ASAP so I can play it exclusively - there are pull requests active for the throwing rework, and for the change to IDing monster items on sight (based on feedback from the Google form thing a while ago). Luckily this is all stuff that's been done already on vanilla so all I have to do is steal the changes and make sure not to overwrite stuff in places we've diverged from vanilla (like accounting for Oka protecting ammo), so I don't feel like there's too much I can screw up.

Paging FK and Araganzar to prove me wrong :v:


EDIT: vvv - I didn't actually realise that until today. I just kinda looked at the results graph from the voting and picked out the two things that looked easiest to pull across. I guess the protocol is to at some point put it to a vote whether to actually pull it in?

Surprise T Rex fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Feb 22, 2020

SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008

~* Challenge *~


I mean we already learn brands of monster weapons on sight, I don't see why more than that is required.

Floodkiller
May 31, 2011

Looking at the poll, it looks like it was for features from vanilla to be ported over to Gooncrawl. I had previously set voting to 66% and monster ID, throwing overhaul, chaos brand improvements, and elemental staves/staff of battle were over that amount so I'm okay with merging them as long as they don't break things. However, it does also look like only 16 people voted in the poll, so if a bunch people want to speak up about not wanting a particular feature that passed, feel free to post about it. Likewise, if you wanted any of the features that were voted on that didn't make it, post that you do want it so some discussion can happen about if it needs another vote.

This was the poll results, for reference.

Einwand
Nov 3, 2012

You idiot.
In this world it's pet or BE pet.

Could we steal hellcrawl's hungry ghost replacement of angry ghosts and cigotuvi's embrace becoming a defensive song of slaying, perhaps? Also I think the labyrinth replacement of gauntlets from trunk is a decent idea, it could be put in as well as labyrinths if people want to keep labyrinths as they are now.

Surprise T Rex
Apr 9, 2008

Dinosaur Gum
I think that would be my ideal lab/gauntlet solution. Perhaps keep the peekaboo translucent vaults to being gauntlet only as well.

Jen X
Sep 29, 2014

To bring light to the darkness, whether that darkness be ignorance, injustice, apathy, or stagnation.
i like labyrinths as a change of pace, and I'm ALWAYS in favor of more cool portals

ExiledTinkerer
Nov 4, 2009
The .25 Trunkening Continues:

quote:

You quaff a potion. It was a potion of stabbing. You feel ready to backstab. You open the trunk update like a pillowcase!

Greetings fellow crawlers. The 0.25 development cycle has proved to be a busy one, so we’re back with another Trunk Update. Many of us usual suspects have been hard at work bringing you some new toys to play with. I’m also happy to note that PleasingFungus has recently returned to drop some new crawl creations of his own. How he managed to escape from the dreaded Tower of Lemuel, we’ll never know!

Now, on with the update:

Frozen Ramparts, a new L3 Ice spell that makes all walls within radius 3 become covered in icicles that release when a monster walks nearby. The icicles do light damage that checks AC but is only partly resistable. Affected monsters additionally receive a “frozen” debuff that slows their movement by 4 aut for a few turns. Available now for any Ice Elementalist in their starting book!
Tin of Tremorstones, a new multi-use evocable. When used, it creates two radius 2 explosions at range 3 that are triple-affected by AC (like LRD), but the explosions are randomly skewed and may hit the user. Most useful for players with good armour. It has a 33% chance to fall apart with each use. It’s a tin of angry earth elementals waiting to explode!
New Potion of Stabbing that gives a 50% chance to upgrade weak stabs (e.g.distracted monsters) to strong ones (e.g. sleeping monsters). I wonder what this potion would taste like?
New unrand: Cigotuvi’s Embrace, a +4 leather armour with rN+, rRot and *Drain that automatically gathers corpses to increase AC. The AC decays slowly over time but decays more quickly as more corpses are added. That’s right, the former Cigotuvi’s Embrace spell has returned, but as an unrand!
Ledas’ Liquefaction gets a boost: the player is now immune to the effects of liquefied ground made by casting it. With this spell, we can all pretend to be a centaur.
Scrolls of Magic Mapping now reveal any floor traps on the level. Now you can feel the pain of finding of a double-zot-trapped Hall of Zot:5 right after you enter the level!
The vorpal weapon ego no longer has distinct adjectives for each weapon class. Now all such weapons are described as ‘vorpal’. Vorpality is the new reality.
Shields have gotten a reskin. Ordinary shields are renamed to kite shields and large shields have been renamed to tower shields. Sword-and-tower sounds cooler than sword-and-board, in my humble opinion.
Confusing Touch is now level 3 and checks MR instead of monster HD. Additionally, the Confuse spell has been removed. Now there’s exactly one “confuse exactly one thing” spell and it’s not so overpowered.
Boots of the Assassin are now called the hood of the Assassin and use the headgear slot. Imagine wearing this while quaffing a potion of stabbing and standing next to a distracted Rupert. Nothing personnel, kid.
The demon blade Leech gains *Rage/+Rage and loses its AC-3 and EV-3 properties. Bloodbane has been removed, having been merged into Leech.
Warlock’s Mirror can now reflect piercing ranged weapons. Is there anything this little gadget can’t do?!
God conducts for harming allies now apply to spells and items that place harmful clouds. But don’t worry, demonspawn, your ignite blood mutation won’t anger Oka.
The Staff of Olgreb now grants poison immunity to monsters wielding it. The gauntlet minotaur can’t wait to try this out when he next finds Olgreb in his loot pile.
Potions of Agility have been removed. Among the less interesting of the many buff potions that fill our inventories, agility potions have been replaced with the more specialized potions of stabbing.
Monsters such as spiders can no longer cling. Rest in peace, a myriad of clinging code bugs.

Some of the above items will continue to receive balance adjustments and tweaks over coming weeks. And we’re not done adding new stuff for 0.25, so stay tuned. Until next time, Happy Crawling!

Potions of...Stabbing? Right...this update is definitely going to be all over the place in terms of "new" and stuff folded in to further trim.

Sage Grimm
Feb 18, 2013

Let's go explorin' little dude!
Well there's a mighty middle finger for Enchanters, reducing Confuse to touch range and making a nominal to-hit check before doing what it did originally. I don't want to be next to a hydra before maybe getting that spell off, thank you very much.

Sticky Flame's reduction was much better suited because it's a guaranteed damage dot on successful cast.

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005

恐竜戦隊
ジュウレンジャー
[...] a +4 leather armour with rN+, rRot and *Drain [...]

So uh, can Gouls wear that?

Also, what was wrong with the normal lvl3 confuse spell that it had to be nerfed into melee range?

Sage Grimm
Feb 18, 2013

Let's go explorin' little dude!
Not only nerfed to melee but also had its base max power cut in half. Mostly inspired by a discussion from August 2019 that Confusing Touch as a level 1 spell is too powerful, which sure there's a case to be made there. Nothing on Confuse being overpowered so I'm still "what the gently caress" about it.

SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008

~* Challenge *~


I am irrationally annoyed by the vorpal change.

Haifisch
Nov 13, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
I'm rationally annoyed. Trunkdev hates flavor.

Araganzar
May 24, 2003

Needs more cowbell!
Fun Shoe
So I already ported and merged staff of battle and elemental staff. The Jiyva changes and a couple of mutation changes (0 MP for empowered wands, increased the SH and EV demonspawn mutation effects) are in goondev atm.

Jiyva is presently buck wild with the mutations IMO a bit too much so. My time and ability to do much is pretty limited atm but if we want to get that over I can do some more testing and do a pull request.

Surprise T Rex posted:

- I didn't actually realise that until today. I just kinda looked at the results graph from the voting and picked out the two things that looked easiest to pull across. I guess the protocol is to at some point put it to a vote whether to actually pull it in?

I don't think we need a vote as these were pretty universally wanted but as FK notes the poll was a bit on the thin side.

If you want to test online you can do a pull request to goondev branch and it will rebuild on ETP around 1:30AM. The server needs some scoring work and more forks added, but seems pretty stable. It's been up for several weeks without a hiccup.


edit: so here is what I mean by taking the brakes off Jiyva - this is about 4,000 turns running Snake 1-4:
code:
 20930 | Snake:1  | Gained mutation: You are partially covered in slimy green scales. (AC +2) [Jiyva's grace - gain good]
 21026 | Snake:1  | Gained mutation: You expend magic power (0 MP) to strengthen your wands. [Jiyva's grace - gain good]
 21197 | Snake:1  | Gained mutation: Your mind is very acute. (Int +4) [Jiyva's grace - gain good]
 21436 | Snake:2  | Gained mutation: Your muscles are strong. (Str +2) [Jiyva's grace - gain good]
 21484 | Snake:2  | Gained mutation: You have a small jelly attached to you that may absorb incoming projectiles. [Jiyva's grace - gain slime]
 21561 | Snake:2  | Lost mutation: You are highly resistant to hostile enchantments. (MR++) [Jiyva's grace - lose random]
 22173 | Snake:2  | Lost mutation: Your spells are a little harder to cast, but a little more powerful. [Jiyva's grace - lose random]
 22273 | Snake:2  | Gained mutation: Your system is resistant to poisons. (rPois) [Jiyva's grace - gain good]
 22422 | Snake:3  | Gained mutation: You are highly resistant to hostile enchantments. (MR++) [Jiyva's grace - gain good]
 22430 | Snake:3  | Gained mutation: Your flesh is heat resistant. (rF+) [Jiyva's grace - gain good]
 22440 | Snake:3  | Gained mutation: You have acidic saliva. [Jiyva's grace - gain slime]
 22470 | Snake:3  | Gained mutation: You are covered in fur. (AC +1) [Jiyva's grace - gain good]
 22519 | Snake:3  | Gained mutation: You occasionally shout uncontrollably at your foes. [evolution]
 22718 | Snake:3  | Gained mutation: You have large cloven feet. [Jiyva's grace - gain good]
 22721 | Snake:3  | Lost mutation: Your muscles are strong. (Str +2) [Jiyva's grace - gain random]
 22755 | Snake:3  | Gained mutation: Your flesh is cold resistant. (rC+) [Jiyva's grace - gain good]
 22758 | Snake:3  | Gained mutation: Your body sometimes deteriorates upon taking damage. [Jiyva's grace - gain random]
 22775 | Snake:3  | Gained mutation: You are extremely resistant to the effects of hostile enchantments. (MR+++) [Jiyva's grace - gain random]
 22785 | Snake:3  | Gained mutation: Your flesh is very heat resistant. (rF++) [Jiyva's grace - gain good]
 23446 | Snake:4  | Gained mutation: Your flesh is almost immune to the effects of heat. (rF+++) [Jiyva's grace - gain good]
 23510 | Snake:4  | Gained mutation: You passively map a small area around you. [Jiyva's grace - gain good]
 23514 | Snake:4  | Gained mutation: Your body has grown golden eyes which may confuse attackers. (Acc +3) [Jiyva's grace - gain slime]
 23528 | Snake:4  | Lost mutation: Your mind is very acute. (Int +4) [Jiyva's grace - lose bad]
 23606 | Snake:4  | Gained mutation: Armour fits poorly on your massive pseudopods. [Jiyva's grace - gain slime]
 23632 | Snake:4  | Gained mutation: Your body has grown many golden eyes which may confuse attackers. (Acc +5) [Jiyva's grace - gain slime]
 24021 | Snake:4  | Gained mutation: You passively map the area around you. [Jiyva's grace - gain good]
 24166 | Snake:4  | Lost mutation: Your gelatinous body deflects attacks. (AC +3, EV +3) [Jiyva's grace - lose bad]
 24193 | Snake:4  | Gained mutation: You can translocate small distances at will. [Jiyva's grace - gain good]
 24209 | Snake:4  | Gained mutation: You have hoof-like feet. [Jiyva's grace - gain good]
 24253 | Snake:4  | Gained mutation: You are robust. (+10% HP) [Jiyva's grace - gain good]
 24266 | Snake:4  | Gained mutation: You are very robust. (+20% HP) [Jiyva's grace - gain good]
 24289 | Snake:4  | Gained mutation: Your gelatinous body deflects attacks. (AC +3, EV +3) [Jiyva's grace - gain slime]
 24496 | Snake:4  | Gained mutation: Your muscles are strong. (Str +2) [Jiyva's grace - gain good]
At the end of Snake here is my mutation set:
code:
                   Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations
You reflexively headbutt those who attack you in melee.
You have a pair of large horns on your head.
You rapidly evolve.
You have very sharp teeth.
You have hoof-like feet.
You are partially covered in molten scales. (AC +2)
You are partially covered in slimy green scales. (AC +2)
You are very agile. (Dex +4)
You can translocate small distances at will.
You possess an exceptional clarity of mind.
Your mind is acute. (Int +2)
Your flesh is cold resistant. (rC+)
Your body sometimes deteriorates upon taking damage.
Your flesh is almost immune to the effects of heat. (rF+++)
You are extremely resistant to the effects of hostile enchantments. (MR+++)
You passively map the area around you.
Your system is resistant to poisons. (rPois)
You heal very quickly.
You are very robust. (+20% HP)
You occasionally shout uncontrollably at your foes.
You are covered in fur. (AC +1)
Your muscles are strong. (Str +2)
You have acidic saliva.
Your body has grown many golden eyes which may confuse attackers. (Acc +5)
Your gelatinous body deflects attacks. (AC +3, EV +3)
Armour fits poorly on your massive pseudopods.
You are covered in slimy tendrils that may disarm your opponents.
You have a small jelly attached to you that senses nearby items.
You have a small jelly attached to you that may absorb incoming projectiles.
You expend magic power (0 MP) to strengthen your wands.
Your movements are slightly less encumbered by armour. (ER -2)
So I feel like this process needs some kind of brake or point of diminishing returns. It wouldn't be hard to put a routine in the gifting code that alters the choice based on the current number of mutations.

One thing I notice is that never removing Jiyva mutations means you're pretty much guaranteed to have confusing eyes which is really nice for stabbing (and in general).

Other than that everything is working and it's ready to be merged.

Araganzar fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Feb 23, 2020

Araganzar
May 24, 2003

Needs more cowbell!
Fun Shoe
Also, I had a little time to play this weekend and thought I would try out the Ascetic pledge - no potions or scrolls. And I didn't cheat by playing a skellington.

I've made it to Temple as a Demonspawn with dragon king armor who somehow already has ignite blood at XL8.

I'm just realizing - how is this even going to work? Scrolls aren't horrible, makes you effectively a formicid without dig. But I can't uncurse or identify. Equipping items is going to be like Russian roulette.

What diety is going to solve that for me? I guess Gozag is my only good option unless I want to pray for great shops? Using potion effects strikes me as a little sketchy though. I could go Ash to find out what stuff is but once I curse an item I'll have to be buried in it.

Amethyst
Mar 28, 2004

I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai
I just won with a stabber in 0.24 and the confuse spell did seem kind of overpowered. I used it constantly throughout the whole game, right through to zot:5. Didn't use confusing touch once.

Changing confusing touch to check MR instead of HD is definitely a good change, it was a weird, counter intuitive exception. Hydras can still be beaten with ensorcelled hibernation so that isn't a huge deal. Undead are now much scarier though and if confusing touch now has a low power cap that makes it useless after lair things may be very hard for stabbers indeed. Dazzling Spray has been changed too, hasn't it? Maybe that's viable?

Amethyst fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Feb 27, 2020

Einwand
Nov 3, 2012

You idiot.
In this world it's pet or BE pet.

I've tried out the Reaver start a few times and honestly have no idea what you're meant to do with it? It seems like a Skald with some spells that don't seem to do all that much, and a possibly good level 5 spell I've never managed to live long enough to use.

Einwand fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Feb 28, 2020

Sage Grimm
Feb 18, 2013

Let's go explorin' little dude!

Amethyst posted:

I just won with a stabber in 0.24 and the confuse spell did seem kind of overpowered. I used it constantly throughout the whole game, right through to zot:5. Didn't use confusing touch once.

Changing confusing touch to check MR instead of HD is definitely a good change, it was a weird, counter intuitive exception. Hydras can still be beaten with ensorcelled hibernation so that isn't a huge deal. Undead are now much scarier though and if confusing touch now has a low power cap that makes it useless after lair things may be very hard for stabbers indeed. Dazzling Spray has been changed too, hasn't it? Maybe that's viable?

Dazzling Flash is a dual school Conjurations/Hexes, level 3 spell. X chances against Y for blind-vulnerable monsters where
X = 95 - (monster_HD * (3 + distance_from_you))
Y = 150 - spell_power which is capped at 50.

Range is 2-3, down from 5 which makes sense considering it's now full AOE instead of a cone.
Power remains the same, which means it has about 40-50% (anecdotally) chance of affecting demonic crawlers in Spider's Nest, the one normal enemy there that can't be hit by Confuse as effectively due to its beefy 100 MR or EH because it has rC+. It was about the only reason I used it, to be honest; once out of Lair it was better to be Invisible or throwing Confuse around. The issue is hey, it's another spell powered by HD!

Amethyst
Mar 28, 2004

I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai
So positional magic as a stabber may look like:

1) scout a group of enemies
2) cast confusing touch
3) approach group and pop dazzling flash to break up the group and start kiting those unaffected
4) isolate further as necessary with ensorcelled hibernation as they close to melee range
5) When you've wheedled down the group enough, kill off the persistant enemies with confusing touch/ensorcelled hibernation


Seems pretty reasonable to me, more interesting than spamming confuse all game long for a similar result

E: I agree the HD thing sucks

Sage Grimm
Feb 18, 2013

Let's go explorin' little dude!
There's nothing wrong with having a bread and butter spell. Fire Elementalists are quite happy spamming Fireball for early/mid game, for example, because it could be relied on to kill most things they encountered. Confuse was the Enchanter's ol' reliable.

Haifisch
Nov 13, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
Hell, most of the reason gooncrawl split off is that trunkdev's become increasingly obsessed with 'this is unobjectively good/not "interesting"(read: is unobjectively good)/doesn't fit with the turncount/winrate-obsessed tavern playstyle, therefore we must remove it' decision making. Don't confuse 'more tedious' with 'more interesting'.

Haifisch fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Feb 28, 2020

Araganzar
May 24, 2003

Needs more cowbell!
Fun Shoe

Einwand posted:

I've tried out the Reaver start a few times and honestly have no idea what you're meant to do with it? It seems like a Skald with some spells that don't seem to do all that much, and a possibly good level 5 spell I've never managed to live long enough to use.

It's a hybrid start and I'd say it's a quite good one. Chill Thread is extremely good, Ozo's Armor means you will have good AC and EV and still be able to cast. Differential expansion is better than lance of force. Blade of Disaster is amazing. Maybe you aren't using Ozo's or something? I don't think I've had any problems with survival at all.

I don't really see the issue with Confuse. A hexer sleeps or confuses. It's not like hexing was overpowered, it drops off in usefulness as its power cap is hit, it's just about the only thing you have going for yourself as a stabber until you get Invisibility. I'm not sure why we think stabbers need to spend ten minutes whittling down a group a pure melee would just steamroll. I see stabbing/hexing ideally as a play style that changes what monsters are real threats and I find that interesting. I don't think confusing touch is a terrible change though, it's just not one I'm terribly excited about.

Einwand
Nov 3, 2012

You idiot.
In this world it's pet or BE pet.

It feels like to me for Reaver trying to use the book spells other than chill thread early is just a waste of exp because your only offensive ability is hitting things with your mundane melee weapon. I suppose I could start as a Reaver and just train like a fighter until mid dungeon where I could afford exp to get support magic like dazzling spray or "force lance" castable. I'll actually use blade of disaster one of these days.

Araganzar
May 24, 2003

Needs more cowbell!
Fun Shoe

Einwand posted:

It feels like to me for Reaver trying to use the book spells other than chill thread early is just a waste of exp because your only offensive ability is hitting things with your mundane melee weapon. I suppose I could start as a Reaver and just train like a fighter until mid dungeon where I could afford exp to get support magic like dazzling spray or "force lance" castable. I'll actually use blade of disaster one of these days.

It's unfortunate that you were silent when we were designing the background, coding it, putting it on the goondev fork, and asking for feedback. Sorry it's not working for you, giving melee hybrids a reason to push conjurations is in principle quite difficult and it may not be a solvable problem. But with chill thread and ozo's I find it's just about an automatic ticket to lair.

I think the issue now is there's not really a good rest stop on the way to Blade. Probably differential expansion needs to be pumped up even more. Not sure what's wrong with getting dazzling spray online pre-Lair though, it's a good spell for quite some time. But ultimately it should be replaced with a thematic offensive spell that's offers utility for offense, separation, and escape similar to conjure flame. Maybe we could remove the movement penalty on Ozo's, I didn't see anyone using it to 15 rune in 20k turns before it was nerfed.

Amethyst
Mar 28, 2004

I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai

Sage Grimm posted:

There's nothing wrong with having a bread and butter spell. Fire Elementalists are quite happy spamming Fireball for early/mid game, for example, because it could be relied on to kill most things they encountered. Confuse was the Enchanter's ol' reliable.

Fireball is a level 5 dual school AOE spell that makes tons of noise. So it’s both positional and incurs serious hunger costs for a lot of the game.

Confuse is a level 3 single school bolt with LOS range. You can spam it in almost every fight brainlessly. It makes many other spells with more interesting trade offs basically redundant. I dont see it as a massive problem bit I can see why the devs want to improve this situation.

Amethyst fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Feb 28, 2020

Amethyst
Mar 28, 2004

I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai

Haifisch posted:

Hell, most of the reason gooncrawl split off is that trunkdev's become increasingly obsessed with 'this is unobjectively good/not "interesting"(read: is unobjectively good)/doesn't fit with the turncount/winrate-obsessed tavern playstyle, therefore we must remove it' decision making. Don't confuse 'more tedious' with 'more interesting'.
I don’t see how the confuse thing fits with this. Spamming confuse is tedious.

someone awful.
Sep 7, 2007


Amethyst posted:

I don’t see how the confuse thing fits with this. Spamming confuse is tedious.

no more or less so than casting any other spell, and i certainly prefer it over having to get into melee range to try to confuse anything.

Amethyst
Mar 28, 2004

I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai

someone awful. posted:

no more or less so than casting any other spell, and i certainly prefer it over having to get into melee range to try to confuse anything.

You can blind and hibernate from range, though. Plus they've buffed leda's liquification. It's not like they've just ripped stuff out thoughtlessly.

I don't agree with you at all that all spells are equally interesting to cast. A bolt spell requires zero thought. An AOE or touch spell requires consideration and leads to more interesting tactical situations.

Einwand
Nov 3, 2012

You idiot.
In this world it's pet or BE pet.

I'll play some more and try to get some feelings on it beyond that, but I'm mostly just not seeing what the intended starting direction for experience spending is. Skalds only need a pittance of exp spent to get their charms up and running, and gain a significant power boost from it and are then free to focus on getting their basic fight skills up to snuff before branching out from there into more combat skill focus or combat magic depending on the run. More traditional mages using conjurations gain reliability and power for their heavy focus on magic skills, getting conjure flame and sticky flame reliable is a massive power boost for a Fire Elementalist which leaves them with space to get some fighting skills or just go even harder on blasting magic. A Fighter only needs exp in 2 or 3 skills early on, weapon skill/fighting/maybe some armor or evasion, while a more traditional mage needs it in spellcasting/their usually 2 primary related magic schools typically conjurations+an element. Meanwhile Reavers need weapon skill/fighting/spell casting/conjurations/ice/hexes/charms to get their full starting kit up and functional, and since all of Reaver's early game spells are level 3 it takes awhile to even get one of them up and running in early dungeon. The exp I could spend to get ozocubu's armor usable in leather armor or robes could instead be spent on making my weapon of choice functional and just put on any random ring or scale armor I find at the cost of a little bit of EV/spell penalty.

Einwand fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Feb 28, 2020

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Superterranean
May 3, 2005

after we lit this one, nothing was ever the same

Amethyst posted:

I don't agree with you at all that all spells are equally interesting to cast. A bolt spell requires zero thought. An AOE or touch spell requires consideration and leads to more interesting tactical situations.

I don't want every use of MP to come with 5 minutes of delicious chin-stroking pondering puzzling. I want to blow things up.

Superterranean fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Feb 28, 2020

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