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wolrah
May 8, 2006
what?

stevewm posted:

Wonder if that's why a lot of them are in the trunk now.. The last 3 GM vehicles I've owned, they where all in the trunk.
BMW always used weight balance as their reason for putting batteries in the trunk.

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fknlo
Jul 6, 2009


Fun Shoe
The OEM battery in my s2000 made it 12 or 13 years but it also only has 13k miles on it now.

Krispy Wafer
Jul 26, 2002

I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat

Grimey Drawer
Our Buick Enclave has the battery under the passenger side second row floor. That's not much of a problem (you can still jump it from the engine bay) except now you have to lift a 40lb battery straight up without any leverage. And before you say there are tools for that, I watched my mechanic use one of those tools and curse the whole time.

And then there were the headlights that cost about $800 to replace at the dealership ($300 for the HID and $500 in labor to remove the front bumper).

Those are BMW prices for a Buick.

taqueso
Mar 8, 2004


:911:
:wookie: :thermidor: :wookie:
:dehumanize:

:pirate::hf::tinfoil:
I like that the rear battery in my volvo is twice as big as it would be in the engine compartment, and a huge volume is recovered around the engine so working on things is easier.

NoWake
Dec 28, 2008

College Slice

wolrah posted:

The thing about having to code the car specifically for a battery though, that's the part I'd like to hear someone actually justify.

Supposedly it's an emissions thing.

The car has to know how old the battery is, so it can figure out how many amps to throw at it to keep it charged. More amps thrown means more torque used turning the alternator. More torque means more gas used, etc, so a company trying to reduce emissions as much as possible is going to try getting away with charging it the least it can.

Nitrox
Jul 5, 2002

Slur, your fighting style is extremely problematic!

NoWake posted:

Supposedly it's an emissions thing.

The car has to know how old the battery is, so it can figure out how many amps to throw at it to keep it charged. More amps thrown means more torque used turning the alternator. More torque means more gas used, etc, so a company trying to reduce emissions as much as possible is going to try getting away with charging it the least it can.
Why does it needs to know the age of the battery? It measures output in real time as it is, every car does. If it starts to require more amps, give it more amps, problem solved.

My suspicion is that it's done to keep you going back to the dealer, as is the case with many unique maintenance items that require special tools for absolutely no reason.

mrtrunks84
Oct 5, 2004

The train in my head just missed it's stop
When the battery in my 2016 Golf R went out I replaced it with a larger AGM battery. The car originally came with a standard small lead acid in the NA market that went out (decided not to go warranty route because of this) which caused a no crank disco light show in the process. In doing this, I had to go into the ECU and change the type of battery and size so the car's charging regulator knew what to do. Not too big of a deal with VAGCOM, but not something a regular user would want to deal with.

Takes No Damage
Nov 20, 2004

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.


Grimey Drawer
Holy crap I'm just going to buy manual econoboxes until I die, I could not deal with all this automotive internet-of-things nonsense. My parents just got a mid-tier Honda Passport and there are all kinds of weird things they did to make it meet government emissions standards. It's got that thing where the engine shuts off if you stop moving for more than 5 seconds, and the gas... port? has this weird rubble membrane thing that you just jam the fuel nozzle through at the pump. They had to include some long funnel thing so you could pour fuel in from any source other than a gas station :tizzy:

Rusty
Sep 28, 2001
Dinosaur Gum

Takes No Damage posted:

Holy crap I'm just going to buy manual econoboxes until I die, I could not deal with all this automotive internet-of-things nonsense. My parents just got a mid-tier Honda Passport and there are all kinds of weird things they did to make it meet government emissions standards. It's got that thing where the engine shuts off if you stop moving for more than 5 seconds, and the gas... port? has this weird rubble membrane thing that you just jam the fuel nozzle through at the pump. They had to include some long funnel thing so you could pour fuel in from any source other than a gas station :tizzy:
The start/stop stuff is the worst, luckily I was able to just code it out of my VW, but it also has a disable button specifically for it, but I got sick of trying to remember every time.

stevewm
May 10, 2005

Takes No Damage posted:

and the gas... port? has this weird rubble membrane thing that you just jam the fuel nozzle through at the pump. They had to include some long funnel thing so you could pour fuel in from any source other than a gas station :tizzy:

Ford has been doing this for a while.. No gas cap, just a spring loaded metal flap. There is a little compartment in the trunk somewhere that usually contains a little long and narrow funnel you can use if you need to fill it up without a gas pump.

Krakkles
May 5, 2003

I haven't driven a Passport lately, but Ford certainly has capless gas systems and auto start-stop down and they seem like really weird things to get mad about. You can usually disable auto start-stop if it's something that really bothers you and you think contributing to global warming a little bit more is better than a car having a couple of extra noises but otherwise behaving in exactly the same way. The fuel system thing - sure, needing a tool for a gas can bites, but how often are you filling up from cans? More pointedly, how often are your elderly parents filling up from anything except a gas station? The convenience of not having the check engine light concern of a fuel cap, not having to remember to put it on, and presumably problem some kind of emissions benefit over thousands of fillups probably outweighs needing a tool twice, ever, in your ownership of the car. The only real argument there that I can see is "what if you don't have the tool", but they're a lot more ubiquitous than you thing - I've seen a bunch in the wild without even realizing what they are, and only connected it when I just looked up a youtube video on whether Fords use it (they do).

(I've literally never run out of gas in the 20 years I've been driving so maybe my perspective is off on that one.)

stevewm posted:

Ford has been doing this for a while.. No gas cap, just a spring loaded metal flap. There is a little compartment in the trunk somewhere that usually contains a little long and narrow funnel you can use if you need to fill it up without a gas pump.
Funny story, these posts and the video I looked up made me realize a couple of things, not least amongst which, I need to verify that it's there it my wife's car AND there's a ton more storage under the floor than I thought.

Kia Soul Enthusias
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom
Toilet Rascal

Nitrox posted:

My suspicion is that it's done to keep you going back to the dealer, as is the case with many unique maintenance items that require special tools for absolutely no reason.

There's another BMW model where you have to replace the battery every 2-3 oil changes cause they didn't take into account American driving styles and instead of reprogramming the ECU, which would mean recertification, they just made the cost of the battery part of the warranty.

opengl
Sep 16, 2010

Krakkles posted:

I haven't driven a Passport lately, but Ford certainly has capless gas systems and auto start-stop down and they seem like really weird things to get mad about. You can usually disable auto start-stop if it's something that really bothers you and you think contributing to global warming a little bit more is better than a car having a couple of extra noises but otherwise behaving in exactly the same way. The fuel system thing - sure, needing a tool for a gas can bites, but how often are you filling up from cans? More pointedly, how often are your elderly parents filling up from anything except a gas station? The convenience of not having the check engine light concern of a fuel cap, not having to remember to put it on, and presumably problem some kind of emissions benefit over thousands of fillups probably outweighs needing a tool twice, ever, in your ownership of the car. The only real argument there that I can see is "what if you don't have the tool", but they're a lot more ubiquitous than you thing - I've seen a bunch in the wild without even realizing what they are, and only connected it when I just looked up a youtube video on whether Fords use it (they do).

All fair points, however capless can have the same exact issues with EVAP leaks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHrKwR1KJgY

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





Can, but probably an order of magnitude less often than people forget to tighten the cap.

opengl
Sep 16, 2010

IOwnCalculus posted:

Can, but probably an order of magnitude less often than people forget to tighten the cap.

Oh for sure.

Krispy Wafer
Jul 26, 2002

I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat

Grimey Drawer
I got a lot of use out of my OBD2 code scanner with my daughter’s first car. Since she got one with a capless cap, not so much.

They do look flimsy as hell. I’m sure they’re better, but I’m positive they will not last as long as a traditional screw on gas cap, which is effectively forever.

Takes No Damage
Nov 20, 2004

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.


Grimey Drawer
In the Honda you can disable the auto shutoff thing when you first get in, but you have to remember to do it every time, and you can't do it once you start driving. I'm all for lower emissions, but sack up and build better engines, but don't tack this half-measure hippie bullshit onto existing tech :mad:

One of the main This Is Not OK things with the auto shutoff seems to be that while the engine is off, everything is running off the battery. When my parents were buying the Passport, the warranty guy at the dealership tried to tell my dad that if they're in heavy traffic in the summertime (in Texas) and they didn't turn the AC off and burned up the battery, that it wouldn't be covered by the warranty. That would have been a dealbreaker for me, but pops thinks he'll be able to win that argument if it ever comes up.

Krakkles posted:

The fuel system thing - sure, needing a tool for a gas can bites, but how often are you filling up from cans? More pointedly, how often are your elderly parents filling up from anything except a gas station?

Putting gas in your car from a can is like using a multi-meter to check voltage. You don't need to do it very often, but when you do, you need to do it real bad :)

TotalLossBrain
Oct 20, 2010

Hier graben!

Takes No Damage posted:

One of the main This Is Not OK things with the auto shutoff seems to be that while the engine is off, everything is running off the battery. When my parents were buying the Passport, the warranty guy at the dealership tried to tell my dad that if they're in heavy traffic in the summertime (in Texas) and they didn't turn the AC off and burned up the battery, that it wouldn't be covered by the warranty. That would have been a dealbreaker for me, but pops thinks he'll be able to win that argument if it ever comes up.

That's....not really a thing, I believe?
In the few cars with auto-shutoff I've driven, certain conditions have to be met before the engine shuts off - i.e. it can't be below freezing, the engine has to be warm, the battery voltage has to be at a certain level, and other things.
My Jeep keeps the AC running but if you sit there for more than a couple minutes without the engine going, it will eventually automatically restart. If the AC is set to max, the engine will not shut off at all.

TotalLossBrain fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Feb 27, 2020

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





Takes No Damage posted:


One of the main This Is Not OK things with the auto shutoff seems to be that while the engine is off, everything is running off the battery. When my parents were buying the Passport, the warranty guy at the dealership tried to tell my dad that if they're in heavy traffic in the summertime (in Texas) and they didn't turn the AC off and burned up the battery, that it wouldn't be covered by the warranty.

99% certain it has an engine driven compressor. It'll probably kick the engine back on when the evaporator gets warm enough, it can't actually run the AC off the battery.

Takes No Damage
Nov 20, 2004

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.


Grimey Drawer
Huh, that's what I remember, but it was 2nd hand info so maybe something got telephone'd before I heard it. Either way I think just the delay of having the engine start up again before I could drive forward from every stoplight would annoy me forever.

randomidiot
May 12, 2006

by Fluffdaddy

(and can't post for 11 years!)

The restart is drat near instant on modern auto stop/start; the ECU knows exactly where the engine stopped, and knows how to fire it back up again quickly. Some don't even need to spin the starter (they fire an injector just before the engine stops, then fire the plug on that cylinder when it needs to start), some use an alternator that doubles as a starter once the engine is warm. Others just have a beefier starter. Either way, it restarts as you release the brake pedal.

Annoyingly, the batteries are almost always more expensive. Keeping the AC cranked up will sometimes defeat the stop/start.

Budgie
Mar 9, 2007
Yeah, like the bird.
Here's the thing, auto stop-start saves emissions and increases your driving range in city driving measurably. The average time you need to be stopped with the engine off to save idling emissions is something like under 6 seconds, you might not think you're stopped for that long very often but you'd be surprised. It's absolutely worth it in 95%+ of the scenarios it activates in.

BitBasher
Jun 6, 2004

You've got to know the rules before you can break 'em. Otherwise, it's no fun.


Budgie posted:

Here's the thing, auto stop-start saves emissions and increases your driving range in city driving measurably. The average time you need to be stopped with the engine off to save idling emissions is something like under 6 seconds, you might not think you're stopped for that long very often but you'd be surprised. It's absolutely worth it in 95%+ of the scenarios it activates in.

And in the summer here in Vegas the passengers can easily start to bake in that 90 seconds the AC shuts off at a stop light, which is straight stupid in an expensive Mercedes.

wolrah
May 8, 2006
what?

BitBasher posted:

And in the summer here in Vegas the passengers can easily start to bake in that 90 seconds the AC shuts off at a stop light, which is straight stupid in an expensive Mercedes.
The first time I ever went to Vegas was in late July IIRC, we pulled in to the parking garage at the Mirage in the rental car with the AC cranked. Literally the moment the car was shut off it felt like the temperature rose by 20 degrees.

Never made that mistake again. Every time I've been there since has been in the spring or late fall.

Takes No Damage
Nov 20, 2004

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.


Grimey Drawer
AC trickery is annoying, but my main concern would be something like waiting to make an unprotected left turn and having the delay to get rolling cause issues if you're trying to make a tight gap. Sure in a perfect world you wouldn't ever have to cut it that close, but I think some roads and intersections were designed with active malice...

Boaz MacPhereson
Jul 11, 2006

Day 12045 Ht10hands 180lbs
No Name
No lumps No Bumps Full life Clean
Two good eyes No Busted Limbs
Piss OK Genitals intact
Multiple scars Heals fast
O NEGATIVE HI OCTANE
UNIVERSAL DONOR
Lone Road Warrior Rundown
on the Powder Lakes V8
No guzzoline No supplies
ISOLATE PSYCHOTIC
Keep muzzled...

wolrah posted:

The first time I ever went to Vegas was in late July IIRC, we pulled in to the parking garage at the Mirage in the rental car with the AC cranked. Literally the moment the car was shut off it felt like the temperature rose by 20 degrees.

Never made that mistake again. Every time I've been there since has been in the spring or late fall.

My cousin got married in Vegas last year in June or July. Based on reports from my parents, it was quite warm. I did not attend.

Krakkles
May 5, 2003

Takes No Damage posted:

AC trickery is annoying, but my main concern would be something like waiting to make an unprotected left turn and having the delay to get rolling cause issues if you're trying to make a tight gap. Sure in a perfect world you wouldn't ever have to cut it that close, but I think some roads and intersections were designed with active malice...
Two easy things that make this a non-issue: Every single car I've seen auto start-stop in has a switch to disable, and every single one I've driven will not reactivate it (I.e., stop the engine) if you let up on and reapply the brake. (You don't generally have to take your foot all the way off, just lower the pressure and then reapply.) This would generally trigger in traffic - so if you're stopped at a left turn, then the light turns green/yield, rolling forward will keep the engine running. Beyond even those, they start back up really quickly.

It's really not that big of a deal.

TotalLossBrain
Oct 20, 2010

Hier graben!

Takes No Damage posted:

AC trickery is annoying, but my main concern would be something like waiting to make an unprotected left turn and having the delay to get rolling cause issues if you're trying to make a tight gap. Sure in a perfect world you wouldn't ever have to cut it that close, but I think some roads and intersections were designed with active malice...

Eh, there is no delay in my Wrangler. My foot isn't even touching the gas pedal yet before the engine is already restarted. (Remember, the restart trigger is letting go of the brake - not pressing on the gas.)

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

STR posted:

The original battery in my first Saturn died right around the 10 year mark, and it was a plain ol' lead acid battery.

Getting the battery out of the hot engine bay does wonders for longevity.

poo poo, my mazda 2 battery lasted like 7 years (slightly under) under the hood, living in the IE and central california with plenty of 110F days.

JuffoWup
Mar 28, 2012
All these horror stories and I'm just smiling and happy with my '14 impreza that has none of these features. That said, I did replace the battery last year due to a hard start as I had transitioned from a 40 minute commute to a 5 minute commute. I also had to replace the headlight bulbs several months ago. But both I did easily.

A goon in world of tanks made me aware of these issues back in the day. Earlier vw beetle models from the 2000s had a funny story with their headlights. Cost like 1k to change because you needed to yank the motor out to have room to access the units.

Geoj
May 28, 2008

BITTER POOR PERSON

JuffoWup posted:

A goon in world of tanks made me aware of these issues back in the day. Earlier vw beetle models from the 2000s had a funny story with their headlights. Cost like 1k to change because you needed to yank the motor out to have room to access the units.

My wife had a 99 or 00 when she was in college and you could pull the entire assembly out without tools. Throw a locking lever on the back of the headlight assembly and the entire unit slid out the front of the car. Possibly the easiest bulb replacement I've experienced in a modern vehicle and possibly one of the only positives in maintaining that car.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Ba

By

Sharkytm doot doo do doot do doo


Fallen Rib

JuffoWup posted:


A goon in world of tanks made me aware of these issues back in the day. Earlier vw beetle models from the 2000s had a funny story with their headlights. Cost like 1k to change because you needed to yank the motor out to have room to access the units.

Umm, nope. You had to pull the headlight out of the bumper, and it's about a 5 minute job to do both.

https://youtu.be/ALcVKiHmn9Q

Handiklap
Aug 14, 2004

Mmmm no.

sharkytm posted:

Umm, nope. You had to pull the headlight out of the bumper, and it's about a 5 minute job to do both.

https://youtu.be/ALcVKiHmn9Q

Yeah, I had a '99, and it was this easy. What I do remember is that the driver-side assembly was something like twice as expensive as the passenger-side because reasons, and that quantum mechanics dictated that if one was functioning, the other was burnt out. I must have replaced the bulbs every year over 5 years of owning it.

Krispy Wafer
Jul 26, 2002

I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat

Grimey Drawer
I can't find it now, but there was a car column where the author was agonizing over buying a cheap used Audi A4 wagon manual transmission. I could be getting the exact issue wrong, but I think this model Audi had a plastic timing belt tensioner that was guaranteed to fail and was buried so deep into the engine that the whole thing had to be removed to get to it.

Car engineers can be real assholes.

wolrah
May 8, 2006
what?

Krispy Wafer posted:

I can't find it now, but there was a car column where the author was agonizing over buying a cheap used Audi A4 wagon manual transmission. I could be getting the exact issue wrong, but I think this model Audi had a plastic timing belt tensioner that was guaranteed to fail and was buried so deep into the engine that the whole thing had to be removed to get to it.

Car engineers can be real assholes.

IIRC you're thinking of the 4.2L V8, which for whatever fucktarded reason has the timing chains on the back instead of the front, meaning that servicing them is an engine-out job, and of course in true German fashion they used plastic that disintegrates over time for the chain guides.

Toe Rag
Aug 29, 2005

I think you’re thinking of this article. Station wagons are rad, and it’s a shame they don’t seem to make sporty versions for less than 100k. Audi is at least releasing the RS6 Avant in the US but not the RS4, for some reason, or sedan only for the RS3.

Krispy Wafer
Jul 26, 2002

I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat

Grimey Drawer
Yes, that's the article. For some reason I remembered the repair being less than $8k. Like maybe a reasonable $2k. But no, it's $8k. What a miserable vehicle.

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Toe Rag posted:

I think you’re thinking of this article. Station wagons are rad, and it’s a shame they don’t seem to make sporty versions for less than 100k. Audi is at least releasing the RS6 Avant in the US but not the RS4, for some reason, or sedan only for the RS3.

There's always the V60 polestar. If you can find one.
There aren't really any cheap non-performance wagons either. I feel like they only sell to people rich enough to not care that people are judging them for driving a wagon.

BULLETKISS
Jul 3, 2003

Has anyone bought their cam from elsewhere and had Best Buy install it? I'm not mechanically inclined and really don't want to install a dashcam myself, but I don't know where else to take my car.

I'm in Las Vegas and there's some not very user friendly websites that say to order a certain $$$ cam off Amazon and then they install it, but I just want to see demos of different cams, pick a decent one and have it installed. I found a model that looked good, emailed the link to a local place about installing it and they gave me that "Well..I guess so, but it's not as good as this $400 one we recommend".

I figured giving money to someone for a service would be easier than this. /rant.

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JUST MAKING CHILI
Feb 14, 2008

nm posted:

There's always the V60 polestar. If you can find one.
There aren't really any cheap non-performance wagons either. I feel like they only sell to people rich enough to not care that people are judging them for driving a wagon.

Buick Regal TourX starts just under $30k. Nice car for an Opel.

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