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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
There's nothing more irritating than a writer convinced they are far more profound than they are.

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Barudak
May 7, 2007

You skipped the part where theres a scene where a person steps out of a room and back in after like 30 seconds and this is later retconned to have been like hours worth of time. Like it doesnt just lie to you about internal thoughts, it lies to you about the events as they are occurring.

I think its really important to stress that Detroit is David Cages best game and thats entirely because its just merely facile and flirting with deeper ideas it doesn't grasp, instead of that but also racist, full of weird sexual violence and things like zombie loving, and undermining its own premises every chance it gets.

Taintrunner
Apr 10, 2017

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Oh I don’t know about that, Detroit handles the issue of race about as gentle as a bull in a China shop. Like oh the androids have to stand in the back of the bus. And then at the end there’s a literal Press X to Quote MLK prompt.

SunshineDanceParty
Feb 7, 2006

One Road. Two Friends. One Ass.

Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

Joss Whedon's never been quite this specifically gross. As in, I've never had the impression he is repeatedly putting his own rape fantasies on screen.


There was also that Firefly story idea he had where Inara gets gangraped by Reavers and in a shocking twist the captain treats her like a lady afterwards.

Pierson
Oct 31, 2004



College Slice

Taintrunner posted:

Oh I don’t know about that, Detroit handles the issue of race about as gentle as a bull in a China shop. Like oh the androids have to stand in the back of the bus. And then at the end there’s a literal Press X to Quote MLK prompt.
This isn't in any way hyperbole by the way. Skip to 24:00.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLFk9whh1xk&feature=youtu.be

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

Joss Whedon's never been quite this specifically gross. As in, I've never had the impression he is repeatedly putting his own rape fantasies on screen.

Warning: :nws: :nms:

Firefly S1E10 - Objects In Space posted:

Jubal Early : You ever been raped?

[Kaylee looks at him in shock]

Kaylee : The captain is right down that hallway he can hear you...

Jubal Early : The captain's locked in his quarters. They all are. There's nobody can help you. Say it.

[she begins to cry]

Kaylee : There's - there's nobody can help me.

Jubal Early : I'm gonna tie you up now. And you know what I'm gonna do then?

[shakes her head]

Jubal Early : I'm gonna give you a present. Get rid of a problem you've got. And I won't touch you in any wrong fashion, nor hurt you at all, unless you make some kind of ruckus. You throw a monkey wrench into my dealings in any way, your body is forfeit. Ain't nothing but a body to me. And I can find all unseemly manner of use for it.


Edit: For those who haven't seen it, the male character in that quote is a black man and the female character is a white woman. This was broadcast on network television (Fox, no less).

The Klowner fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Mar 7, 2020

wizardofloneliness
Dec 30, 2008

Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

Joss Whedon's never been quite this specifically gross. As in, I've never had the impression he is repeatedly putting his own rape fantasies on screen.

It didn't make it to screen, but he did talk about Firefly and how the syringe that Inara keeps with her in case of a Reaver invasion, which I always assumed was some kind of suicide thing, was actually something that would kill anyone that tried to rape her. But not immediately, it took some time to work. So Whedon's idea for her backstory was that a bunch of Reavers invaded her ship and killed everyone but her. But then when a rescue party goes in, they find that she's still alive and all the Reavers are dead...

Pirate Jet
May 2, 2010
My favorite part of Detroit: Become Human is the part where the robot resistance leader can convert other androids to his side by waving his hand at them, effectively meaning he is fighting slavery with slavery.

Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!


I installed Heavy Rain after we finished Beyond. I played it back at launch but she has no idea what we're about to get into. After that I might as well do Detroit because I have it as well

I don't have Indigo Prophecy though which is a thing I should fix.

The Saddest Rhino
Apr 29, 2009

Put it all together.
Solve the world.
One conversation at a time.



Barudak posted:

You skipped the part where theres a scene where a person steps out of a room and back in after like 30 seconds and this is later retconned to have been like hours worth of time. Like it doesnt just lie to you about internal thoughts, it lies to you about the events as they are occurring.

I think its really important to stress that Detroit is David Cages best game and thats entirely because its just merely facile and flirting with deeper ideas it doesn't grasp, instead of that but also racist, full of weird sexual violence and things like zombie loving, and undermining its own premises every chance it gets.

The best plot of the story (detective buddy cop arc) had its script rewritten by the two actors because the original was so bad. The robot kidnapping the child is all right (if not for the absolutely poo poo twist) and the revolutionary plot is just dumb as hell. You can solve the human - android conflict by singing.

Barudak
May 7, 2007

Taintrunner posted:

Oh I don’t know about that, Detroit handles the issue of race about as gentle as a bull in a China shop. Like oh the androids have to stand in the back of the bus. And then at the end there’s a literal Press X to Quote MLK prompt.

I guess, mentally, I'm making a distinction between being oblivious while thinking you're doing a good thing and just kind of reveling in stereotypes because gently caress it, thats characterization and a thing all people of this group do. You're absolutely right, Detroit is embarrassing all over and is just completely oblivious to the idea that how one constructs story influences how well its stated themes land and are experienced. The loving hand-wave mind-control, "I guess we can just take off this thing that says "I'm a robot"", and it being a second attempt at misdirection by your playable character that's not well handled and raises roughly a million questions about the entire narrative that the game is not prepared to contextualize and address are just kind of impressive not getting it for somebodies 4th major title.

Seriously, the mans' best work is the first 30 minutes of Indigo Prophecy, the soundtrack to Time Cop, and his companies current attempts to muddy the waters about what exactly they got up to in the past regarding harrassment, both sexual and otherwise.

Barudak fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Mar 7, 2020

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.
The best way to play Heavy Rain is to fail every prompt.

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang

wyoming posted:

Buddy, he made Dollhouse.

I had managed to forget that completely. Fair point.

Still not as creepy as Cage's oeuvre though.

Pigbuster
Sep 12, 2010

Fun Shoe

MonsieurChoc posted:

The best way to play Heavy Rain is to fail every prompt.

With the exception of succeeding at a couple QTEs during the market chase so the game doesn’t end the scene before you get to the chicken attack.

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!

Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

Joss Whedon's never been quite this specifically gross.

He justified his serial cheating on his wife and sleeping with his young actresses by saying that he's a man, which means he's genetically coded to conquer women.

MechanicalTomPetty
Oct 30, 2011

Runnin' down a dream
That never would come to me
Since we're on the topic of David Cage, I highly recommend looking up an LP, any LP, of Omikron: The Nomad Soul. I guarantee there is like a > 80% chance that whoever is playing it goes insane by the time they get to the second map.

I have never seen a game evoke such a... visceral response so consistently. It's pretty obvious why every David Cage game after that never again tried to be more complex than walking around with the occasional quick time event.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.

Pigbuster posted:

With the exception of succeeding at a couple QTEs during the market chase so the game doesn’t end the scene before you get to the chicken attack.

Oh, yeah.

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang

MechanicalTomPetty posted:

Since we're on the topic of David Cage, I highly recommend looking up an LP, any LP, of Omikron: The Nomad Soul. I guarantee there is like a > 80% chance that whoever is playing it goes insane by the time they get to the second map.

I have never seen a game evoke such a... visceral response so consistently. It's pretty obvious why every David Cage game after that never again tried to be more complex than walking around with the occasional quick time event.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=691RrF9pnaU&list=PL57hJfweW_2uqAdRACg-s5Siq_SBEwi2L

This is an amazing example of that.

ALFbrot
Apr 17, 2002
I wish that a better writer would take a swing at that kind of game, because the first few parts of Indigo Prophecy were absolutely revelatory to me 15 years ago

Codependent Poster
Oct 20, 2003

ALFbrot posted:

I wish that a better writer would take a swing at that kind of game, because the first few parts of Indigo Prophecy were absolutely revelatory to me 15 years ago

My friends and I replayed the demo of that over and over again because it was fun to explore how to gently caress up and what all you could do to be an idiot.

Casimir Radon
Aug 2, 2008


I liked Omikron for what it was, or at least what it aspired to be. That said it tries to be a lot of things. Adventure game, RPG, shooter, and fighting game. With the latter two suffering the most from it trying to do too much. I've never actually finished the game.

Vandar
Sep 14, 2007

Isn't That Right, Chairman?




This LP was the beginning of the end for the Best Friends.

gently caress you, David Cage. :argh:

Vandar fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Mar 7, 2020

MechanicalTomPetty
Oct 30, 2011

Runnin' down a dream
That never would come to me

Casimir Radon posted:

I liked Omikron for what it was, or at least what it aspired to be. That said it tries to be a lot of things. Adventure game, RPG, shooter, and fighting game. With the latter two suffering the most from it trying to do too much. I've never actually finished the game.

Yeah I'm in the same boat honestly; I have to admire the ambition and audacity that must have gone in to making something like that, even if the end product leaves, uh, something to be desired.

Parakeet vs. Phone
Nov 6, 2009
If you're down for reading a writer and reviewer slowly lose his poo poo while playing through Heavy Rain specifically to critique it's writing, then this series isn't bad.

https://gamecritics.com/daniel-weissenberger/heavy-rain-is-in-many-ways-not-well-written-part-1/

It's a long multiple part thing but I remember it being a fun read.

The craziest point I remember from that critique was how many contrivances and lies he worked in to make the twist work. Aside from outright lying in the killer's internal thoughts, no one ever has the option to ask for a description of the killer from people who had run-ins with him, because it would be immediately obvious to the player. So an investigative reporter and an FBI agent go around questioning people and never ask what the guy looks like. All they care about is trying to get his name and going after obvious red herrings. And to add to the pile, at some point canonically the killer goes into a narrow vent system that he'd never be able to fit into. I normally hate calling out "plot holes" but there's just so loving many of them in Heavy Rain.

I still don't quite know how he managed to make a fairly interesting hour or so of Indigo Prophecy. Like other goons have said, Cage skates because of this glimpses of fun, ambitious projects but it just always falls apart so fast.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
It seems more mysterious and slightly offensive to me that these games apparently keep selling well enough to warrant more of them.

Lid
Feb 18, 2005

And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYtKd7fi5I0

davidspackage
May 16, 2007

Nap Ghost

Ghost Leviathan posted:

It seems more mysterious and slightly offensive to me that these games apparently keep selling well enough to warrant more of them.

Cage's real problem (aside from, you know, an incredibly questionable attitude towards women, Asian people, black people, etc) is that the media tends to lift him up as this singular videogame auteur at the crown of his company. He has good ideas, but needs others taking the reins to not make the end result a wet fart.

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang
He has a French accent and talks a lot of pretentious bollocks about game design and EMOTIONS with the arrogant surety of the truly deluded. Games journalists eat that poo poo up because it appeals to their desire for affirmation, to be seen as critiquing a serious artistic medium. People who play his games and enjoy them don't, I assume, pay any actual attention to what's going on and get swept up in the disjointed set pieces.

There's a suicide attempt in Beyond Two Souls. It's extremely well acted by Ellen Page, really quite moving. Until you realise it's utterly disconnected from the rest of the story. It's just Cage using the subject matter and the actress' talent to force an emotional response out of you in a really cheap way. People tend to remember stuff like that a lot more fondly when their memory papers over the cracks.

Oh God, I just remembered that the romantic heart of that game involves Page being in a relationship with her much older government handler who has been her jailer since she was a child. Framed always as a positive relationship the game will not stop trying to force you into it.

Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 08:16 on Mar 8, 2020

IshmaelZarkov
Jun 20, 2013

I'm always upset by the amount of wasted potential in David Cage's work. It's always so close to being the revelatory experience he promises, just to fall short at the last minute. I just want him to make 90% of a video game then have a better director come through, get rid of the weird rapey stuff, and tie it into a storyline that makes sense.

He just needs to be properly George Lucas'd.

Alan Smithee
Jan 4, 2005


A man becomes preeminent, he's expected to have enthusiasms.

Enthusiasms, enthusiasms...
anyone seen the Hunt

is it really just 90 mins of "Libs trying to own us!"

Barudak
May 7, 2007

From a purely promotional standpoint, while hes independent now, his last three games were all Playstation exclusives and heavily promoted by Sony, and to be frank was basically all alone making high production adventure games outside the telltale mold without serious competition until like 2 years ago.

The man desperately wants to be making movies which is why we must collectively stop him since photoshopping employees as nazis to make fun of them didnt stop him.

Alan Smithee
Jan 4, 2005


A man becomes preeminent, he's expected to have enthusiasms.

Enthusiasms, enthusiasms...

Barudak posted:


The man desperately wants to be making movies which is why we must collectively stop him since photoshopping employees as nazis to make fun of them didnt stop him.

wait what

Barudak
May 7, 2007


So his company currently embroiled in an ongoing controversy around a variety of harassment allegations and his and their attacks on journalists, but last year they did also lose a suit where a high up in the company photoshopped an employee as a Nazi and shared it around the office.

This is of course in addition to and unrelated to nude Ellen Page Shrine

Alan Smithee
Jan 4, 2005


A man becomes preeminent, he's expected to have enthusiasms.

Enthusiasms, enthusiasms...
Well at least it's not Denis Dyack's co-founder and kiddie porn bad

which is a very high bar no one should try and clear

LIVE AMMO COSPLAY
Feb 3, 2006

There isn't a lot of talent with experience in putting out a big budget video game (and good luck getting promoted any time soon) so when Sony needs a shiny new game to trot out for the PS5 Cage will be there to fail upwards.

Parakeet vs. Phone
Nov 6, 2009
Not to derail to hard about video games, but Cage is also a case where Indigo Prophecy was boosted because he supposedly originally wanted it to be an episodic game and had to rush out the entire back half when the publisher pulled the plug. The game does fall off a cliff after a very noticeable chapter ending. That got him a lot of sympathy that papered over the worst parts and let him lean into the tortured creative angle. Heavy Rain was able to coast as a distinct looking "mature" game with dark themes and a focus on story, and most people don't actually complete the games that they buy so there's not much pushback except among us nerds. Beyond and Detroit seem to be making him lose some of the sheen at least. The Ellen Page controversy got a lot of coverage and got the word out that he was being a weird creep about her.

Parakeet vs. Phone fucked around with this message at 12:04 on Mar 8, 2020

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
Heavy Rain iirc was also an early life PS3 game when it had jack all else in worthwhile exclusives.

Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!


Ghost Leviathan posted:

Heavy Rain iirc was also an early life PS3 game when it had jack all else in worthwhile exclusives.

08 or 09 I think so about 2-3 years into the lifespan

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.

Len posted:

08 or 09 I think so about 2-3 years into the lifespan

IIRC this was still when the 'PS3 has no games' meme was in full swing, and not entirely without justification.

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RatHat
Dec 31, 2007

A tiny behatted rat👒🐀!

Len posted:

08 or 09 I think so about 2-3 years into the lifespan

Heavy Rain was 2010. For comparison Uncharted 2 came out in 2009 so this was well past the "PS3 has no games" part.

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