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Kanos posted:The ending to Blue Destiny in the games has Marion waking up after the EXAM units are destroyed. She's not dead. The manga ends differently, and since the game was never translated to English but the manga was, that’s the version most of us know.
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Mar 15, 2020 00:16
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I guess we're quibbling over degree? I think there's a very strong thematic difference between "newtypes can see and to some degree interact in passing with the spirits of those who have passed as a consequence of their abilities" and "newtype ghosts are poltergeists that can materially affect the physical world unaided". The famous scenes involving newtype magic in the old productions, like Kamille's sword of rage/waverider crash and Judau's sword of rage/high mega cannon full power - I've always interpreted and read those as the spirits metaphorically aiding and inspiring Kamille and Judau to push beyond their limits to accomplish a brief superhuman feat utilizing the psycommu technology in their mobile suit, like a mental burst of adrenaline, rather than "the ghost of Puru poured Ecto Cooler in the ZZ's reactor to let it shoot a laser at Haman". The fact that F91 and Victory both stick to this more symbolic and empathetic approach to newtype wizardry despite being set far after CCA - the biggest example of newtype magic in the original timeline - always supported this interpretation in my mind. Kanos fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Mar 15, 2020 |
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Mar 15, 2020 00:20
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Kanos posted:Given all this, like I said in my earlier post, Michele would have made a lot more sense as the protagonist and the movie would lose almost nothing if Jona didn't exist and his role was filled by Michele. She's the active agent in the trio, the one who made stuff happen, and the one who ultimately has the reason to feel desperate amounts of survivor's guilt. Jona's role in the plot is to be a loving potato who passively reacts to everything around him instead of ever having agency - the closest thing to him actually making a decision or acting on his own is the first fight with the Narrative where he disobeys orders before that's immediately dropped. I think I agree on that. With the scene of her "sister" saying "No, we don't care, but it would be bad PR if you died", and her losing her bodyguard in the final battle, she'd be better suited to the final left behind bits too. She sacrificed everything to make things right, and she can't even die in the bargain. It's a good point of despair, with Banagher and the Commander welcoming her despite her sins after the lowest point feeling much more earned as a turnaround. That said (or perhaps, "even so"?), Jona could have been reasonably compelling himself. He's got a lot of stuff happening around him that could form the basis for an interesting character. The pessimism and attempts to disappear are a nice contrast to the whole "light of hope" thing Newtypes normally work with. The problem is we don't really get much from him as a person. Even Banagher gets more time being a person, and Banagher's the worst part of Unicorn.
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Mar 15, 2020 00:43
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Kanos posted:Narrative's weird-rear end, badly told backstory See, I got everything BUT what was going on in Murasame. I rewatched the section of people saying things several times and I sort of got what you said but I was genuinely not sure if I was reading it right because of how garbled it all was. Also kudos to Michelle for trying to "protect" Rita by leaving her to the tender ministrations of Murasame Labs after telling them she was a genuine Newtype. The hosed upedness of that is why I was genuinely unsure whether Michelle had deliberately betrayed the other two. Kanos posted:There's a pretty strong difference between the dream-like Star Wars-style force ghost newtypes that speak to the protagonists and show up to aid them in extremis we see in earlier works and what I'm talking about in Narrative, where a newtype dies and is a fully functional physical actor that still controls a mobile suit at full capacity unassisted a year after her death, to the point where the people chasing said mobile suit want to capture it to see if they can distill the secret to eternal life. And then Rita's ghost tells Jona explicitly she'll need help to take down Zoltan because she's dead and dead people can't solve living people problems and gets slapped around by the Neo Zeong until Jona hops aboard, despite the fact that up until this point the Phenex had absolutely no problem flying around at light speed and blowing poo poo up effortlessly I keep getting the sense this movie had some problems.
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Mar 15, 2020 00:44
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Kanos posted:The fact that F91 and Victory both stick to this more symbolic and empathetic approach to newtype wizardry despite being set far after CCA - the biggest example of newtype magic in the original timeline - always supported this interpretation in my mind. F91 and Victory also had far less explicit Newtype ghost magic scenes, or uses of psycommu to power the hero to do something beyond the normal limits of their suit. The fact that Char talks about how the psycofields are resonating with the willpower of all the people in the vicinity and causing the Axis Shock during Char's Counterattack would also imply that it's not just the pilots over-clocking their own innate abilities for a brief period and instead is supposed to be some kind of outside influence at work. A scene that'd lose a lot if it was just Amuro and/or Char's willpower at work all along, and not anything to do with all the people around them. Tomino seemed to be done with Newtype powers by and large after Char's Counterattack really, and by the early 00's was saying in interview that he had changed his view of using Newtypes entirely and that that's why there were no Newtypes in Turn A at all. Or something to that effect anyway, though I'd have to find the interview again to double check his exact wording. Regardless, it's less quibbling over degree (which means we're now quibbling over quibbling; meta quibbling) and more just a difference in view of what's interesting or appropriate for the setting I think. I definitely agree there's a big difference between Newtype ghosts passingly interacting with the world like in Zeta and what's happening by Narrative, but at the same time, I just don't care and think it's both technologically and narratively appropriate to the setting and even what came before regardless. Tomino (or at least, the show's Tomino worked on) during that era all included massive jumps in what Newtypes could do within a couple of years and laid the ground work all of the stuff Fukui is doing are built on and what Fukui is doing doesn't seem like a massive jump from where Tomino left off. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've seen interviews with him saying he watched the finale of Unicorn and thought it was fine, and really, the kind of melodramatic Newtype magic on display there doesn't seem like it'd be a million miles from what Tomino might have done if he'd continued that trend after Char's Counterattack rather than changing his mind on how they should be used.
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Mar 15, 2020 01:08
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I dunno, the last ten episodes of Victory go Maximum Newtype. The Angel Halo is a Newtype superweapon, and the poo poo it does both intentionally and unintentionally is horrifying.
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Mar 15, 2020 01:10
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I don't remember any Newtype ghost stuff in Victory beyond Duker Iq's final ride to heaven, and his ghost didn't interact with the cast in any way during that. I also don't remember the V2 having any on board psycommu derived system, or using it to bull the pilot's way through a problem in the finale. The Angel Halo had a neo-psycommu, but the protagonists weren't using any. Well, not outside Shakti praying inside the Angel Halo. They didn't have any in a mobile suit that the main character used to help overcome, essentially, is what I mean.
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Mar 15, 2020 02:23
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tsob posted:I definitely agree there's a big difference between Newtype ghosts passingly interacting with the world like in Zeta and what's happening by Narrative, but at the same time, I just don't care and think it's both technologically and narratively appropriate to the setting and even what came before regardless. Tomino (or at least, the show's Tomino worked on) during that era all included massive jumps in what Newtypes could do within a couple of years and laid the ground work all of the stuff Fukui is doing are built on and what Fukui is doing doesn't seem like a massive jump from where Tomino left off. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've seen interviews with him saying he watched the finale of Unicorn and thought it was fine, and really, the kind of melodramatic Newtype magic on display there doesn't seem like it'd be a million miles from what Tomino might have done if he'd continued that trend after Char's Counterattack rather than changing his mind on how they should be used. I guess this is a fundamental taste disagreement, I think. I prefer my newtype magic one way, and you're fine with it going another way. Both are valid! (I still think Narrative is a terribly put together movie even completely disregarding the plot, though, mostly due to its over-reliance on disjointed flashbacks.)
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Mar 15, 2020 02:53
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tsob posted:I don't remember any Newtype ghost stuff in Victory beyond Duker Iq's final ride to heaven, and his ghost didn't interact with the cast in any way during that. I also don't remember the V2 having any on board psycommu derived system, or using it to bull the pilot's way through a problem in the finale. The Angel Halo had a neo-psycommu, but the protagonists weren't using any. Well, not outside Shakti praying inside the Angel Halo. They didn't have any in a mobile suit that the main character used to help overcome, essentially, is what I mean. The finale of V Gundam had Usso being guided by a procession of ghosts, those ghosts telling him to "Believe in the V2", and shortly thereafter the V2's Wings of Light shooting out an improbable distance which seemed to cause the angel halo to break apart and fly away. The framing of the scene is that whatever happened is no less supernatural and miraculous than Camille's Waverider Crash or Judau supercharging the ZZ Gundam in their respective finales, Psycommu adjacent system in the V2 or no.
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Mar 15, 2020 02:58
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Also, the Angel Halo causes everyone around it to experience mass hallucinations (lethally, in Fonse's case) and eventually gets psychically disassembled by Shakti, and then there's stuff like Fuala sniping from orbit using telepathy and Marbet getting told off by her unborn Newtype child.
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Mar 15, 2020 03:58
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drrockso20 posted:Honestly I'd love an AU that just ramps up the psychic stuff up to 11 But already got Gundam 00 season 2 though?  I'd honestly love to see it done properly too, just to see where it'd go.
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Mar 15, 2020 04:55
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After the first episode of Zeta, I’m pretty firmly convinced that Kamille is kind of a loving idiot, unless there’s some proper backstory thing later on that retroactively explains his tendency to just up and punch military officials. Also I got the Blu-ray’s off Amazon so I’m curious, there’s not just supposed to be an instrumental track for the opening/ending, is there? Not that I’m complaining, they’re pretty good tracks, just curious.
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Mar 15, 2020 07:02
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Last Celebration posted:After the first episode of Zeta, I’m pretty firmly convinced that Kamille is kind of a loving idiot, unless there’s some proper backstory thing later on that retroactively explains his tendency to just up and punch military officials. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2rqp_QW_U4 Tied up in rights issues/too expensive to license. edit. I also saw Narrative, and largely agree with the negative criticism. The animation seemed much stiffer than Unicorn, with mechanical designs as warmed over as all the call backs. Maarak fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Mar 15, 2020 |
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Mar 15, 2020 07:30
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Last Celebration posted:After the first episode of Zeta, I’m pretty firmly convinced that Kamille is kind of a loving idiot, unless there’s some proper backstory thing later on that retroactively explains his tendency to just up and punch military officials. Nope that's just Kamille. He chills out later on.
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Mar 15, 2020 07:32
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Last Celebration posted:After the first episode of Zeta, I’m pretty firmly convinced that Kamille is kind of a loving idiot, unless there’s some proper backstory thing later on that retroactively explains his tendency to just up and punch military officials. Ep 1 Kamille is an angry teenager who punches military officials and then steals a warmachine to stomp them again. He's dumb but also owns.
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Mar 15, 2020 07:39
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Warmachine posted:Nope that's just Kamille. He chills out later on. It just takes fifty episodes of punching people in the face.
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Mar 15, 2020 10:32
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Kamille punching a military officer in the face, getting arrested for it, punching another military officer in the face within seconds of his rich parents bailing him out, stealing a car, and then stealing a military war machine before joining a terrorist organization, is the single best episode in the history of anime. Kamille is such a loving dipshit and it's incredible
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Mar 15, 2020 13:40
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Neddy Seagoon posted:But already got Gundam 00 season 2 though? Nah I mean much further than that ninjewtsu posted:Kamille punching a military officer in the face, getting arrested for it, punching another military officer in the face within seconds of his rich parents bailing him out, stealing a car, and then stealing a military war machine before joining a terrorist organization, is the single best episode in the history of anime. Kamille is such a loving dipshit and it's incredible Kamille's theme song; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGkyaPZBlhc
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Mar 15, 2020 13:54
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i always really liked how all that was set off by fa repeatedly shouting his name in a public place, despite knowing perfectly well how sensitive he was about his name. she was either completely oblivious or loving with him, but the latter is funnier so let's go with that.
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Mar 15, 2020 14:05
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ninjewtsu posted:Kamille punching a military officer in the face, getting arrested for it, punching another military officer in the face within seconds of his rich parents bailing him out, stealing a car, and then stealing a military war machine before joining a terrorist organization, is the single best episode in the history of anime. Kamille is such a loving dipshit and it's incredible
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Mar 15, 2020 15:59
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It was cool watching Kamille growing from a braindead teenager to just braindead.
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Mar 15, 2020 16:07
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Last Celebration posted:After the first episode of Zeta, I’m pretty firmly convinced that Kamille is kind of a loving idiot, unless there’s some proper backstory thing later on that retroactively explains his tendency to just up and punch military officials. Those military officials are the Space Gestapo and Kamille has been reading resistance literature we learn later on. He clearly resents the Titans taking over his home. Also he's just kinda insane.
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Mar 15, 2020 16:15
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Omnicrom posted:And then Rita's ghost tells Jona explicitly she'll need help to take down Zoltan because she's dead and dead people can't solve living people problems and gets slapped around by the Neo Zeong until Jona hops aboard, despite the fact that up until this point the Phenex had absolutely no problem flying around at light speed and blowing poo poo up effortlessly While there's some inconsistency in how Rita's control of the Phenex is portrayed, I think this is more of an ideological limitation rather than a physical one. They're bodhisattva or angel-like figures who temporarily intervene in the physical world to stop horrible tragedies and help out those who are dear to them, but otherwise they think flesh and blood humans should be left to their own devices. A better movie would've probably made it look more consistent, but Narrative is a movie with a neat concept that really messed up the execution side so welp, what we got is kind of a mess.
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Mar 15, 2020 16:27
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NikkolasKing posted:Those military officials are the Space Gestapo and Kamille has been reading resistance literature we learn later on. He clearly resents the Titans taking over his home. Kamille is space antifa.
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Mar 15, 2020 17:51
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GimmickMan posted:A better movie would've probably made it look more consistent, but Narrative is a movie with a neat concept that really messed up the execution side so welp, what we got is kind of a mess. 100% with you on this. My original take on Narrative was that it felt like a movie that was put together wrong. You can assemble a compelling narrative from the elements of this story, but they didn't. I'd watch a Gundam movie that examines how people try to chase down and categorize a thing that's explicitly supernatural, or a Gundam movie about a complex web of belonging, alienation, and survivor's guilt, or a Gundam movie where agents of this world and the next join together to protect Earth from technology that's come too soon, or a Gundam movie where one of the major characters is the ghost of someone who went Beyond The Time and actually has a radically divergent perspective on the world. Narrative is sort of all of these at once but very badly, and is far less than the sum of its parts.
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Mar 15, 2020 17:54
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More people should punch fascists imo
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Mar 15, 2020 18:03
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kamille chose a poor time to punch jerid in the face, but that doesn't mean punching jerid in the face is ever a bad idea.
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Mar 15, 2020 18:12
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I remember people talking a few years back about how Kamille's actions in the first few episodes made no sense, but the resurgence of Nazis and fascists IRL made Kamille punching fascists way more understandable.
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Mar 15, 2020 19:10
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Aside from the Ghiren comparison does gundam ever give direct mention of fascism?
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Mar 15, 2020 20:01
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The earth first paramilitary that commits war crimes at the drop of a hat and wears snazzy black uniforms wasn't direct enough?
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Mar 15, 2020 20:09
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Baka-nin posted:The earth first paramilitary that commits war crimes at the drop of a hat and wears snazzy black uniforms wasn't direct enough? Now hold on im not saying that gundam doesn't point at it. I just wanted a couple more examples.
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Mar 15, 2020 21:23
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Kharn_The_Betrayer posted:Now hold on im not saying that gundam doesn't point at it. I just wanted a couple more examples. The symbolism is clear but in terms of direct references, I think Degwin calling Gihren Hitler is the only direct comparison to real life history. That goes for all the series. They're all supposed to be our future but they don't talk about our past much.
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Mar 15, 2020 21:28
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Kharn_The_Betrayer posted:Aside from the Ghiren comparison does gundam ever give direct mention of fascism? Zeon is explicitly a hybrid of Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany, and one of the main messages of every piece of media set in the UC after the first series is 'oligarchic capitalism masquerading as democracy will not protect you from the fash'.
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Mar 15, 2020 21:30
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NikkolasKing posted:The symbolism is clear but in terms of direct references, I think Degwin calling Gihren Hitler is the only direct comparison to real life history. I imagine that's because most of them besides 00 want to keep it vague how far in the future they are
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Mar 15, 2020 21:38
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obviously zeon fanboys are a big thing, but are there large groups of people who unironically go "the titans were right" the same way zeon fans do?
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Mar 15, 2020 22:16
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probably, but the titans were never as iconic as zeon.
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Mar 15, 2020 22:22
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ninjewtsu posted:obviously zeon fanboys are a big thing, but are there large groups of people who unironically go "the titans were right" the same way zeon fans do? I don't see as many Titans cosplayers running around, though I have to admit the dark blue Gundam Mk II and GM Quel are pretty great looking robots.
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Mar 15, 2020 22:23
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ninjewtsu posted:obviously zeon fanboys are a big thing, but are there large groups of people who unironically go "the titans were right" the same way zeon fans do? I mean, likely, but having Jerrid Messa as your most prominent members probably does wonders in terms of keeping people from thinking you're cool.
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Mar 15, 2020 23:23
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Midjack posted:I don't see as many Titans cosplayers running around This is hosed up, the Titans have the best fashion in UC.
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Mar 15, 2020 23:43
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Droyer posted:This is hosed up, the Titans have the best fashion in UC. That reminds me, I miss SeanBeansShako Gundam fashion posts. 
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Mar 15, 2020 23:52
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