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Yami Fenrir posted:Well, they certainly got it :V
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Mar 15, 2020 17:02
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At least the stream confirmed that the Trade League policy isn't as OP as feared, it's .5 Energy / .25 Goods / .25 Unity instead of the full 1 Energy the base policy gives out.
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Mar 15, 2020 17:37
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I left the stream to eat lunch and now everyone is getting eaten by the Hive Minds
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Mar 15, 2020 18:22
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Blorange posted:At least the stream confirmed that the Trade League policy isn't as OP as feared, it's .5 Energy / .25 Goods / .25 Unity instead of the full 1 Energy the base policy gives out. Eh, it's still really good, just not broken. The big thing about it was always the opportunity cost of the other two, and it still saves you a lot of building space.
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Mar 15, 2020 18:28
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Serephina posted:I'd hesitate to call anything over/under powered just yet, for all we know being a normal race that just blows past admin capacity might be "optimal" still. Wait until the game's out. No way, bureacrats aren't that hard to get. Though of course you only need to actually have bureaucrats on months that you're actually finishing a tech or tradition, but that's another problem entirely.
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Mar 15, 2020 18:59
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It's not about being hard to acquire, it's about being one cog of many in a rather complex formula for victory. It's hard to actually see what's important when looking at things on paper, which is why we end up with a pile of useless civics sitting next to OP ones, and why a 5% intake/output efficiency on jobs can make or break you but a 1000% penalty for tech can be ignored. So for this example, it might mean that -30% pop sprawl is useless instead of OP since it's actually easy to stay under cap if you want to, or perhaps pops aren't a big enough aspect of midgame sprawl for an aggressive expander, or as theorized you might give zero fucks about sprawl and yolo up to 1000% again as you snowball. Calling poo poo OP before the patch drops is hugely preemptive, unless it's dumb poo poo like that grand herald fleet again.
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Mar 15, 2020 19:12
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Eh, I don't think the most basic about this game will change: The more building space you can free up for tech and alloys, the better. Both Trade League and reducing the sprawl penalty (which is very likely to become your main source of empire sprawl in late game, considering you can easily have THOUSANDS of pops) do that. There are obviously the +% admin cap techs to consider, but reducing 500 empire sprawl from 1000 pops to even just 250 is going to go a long way.
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Mar 15, 2020 19:26
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Serephina posted:It's not about being hard to acquire, it's about being one cog of many in a rather complex formula for victory. It's hard to actually see what's important when looking at things on paper, which is why we end up with a pile of useless civics sitting next to OP ones, and why a 5% intake/output efficiency on jobs can make or break you but a 1000% penalty for tech can be ignored. Or the scions origin?  Anyway I'd be very surprised eating a +500% or whatever tech cost modifier from being at 1030 sprawl/30 admin cap instead of just getting 100 bureaucrats. You'd need to have very few scientists for that to be worth it. Of course for a small empire ignoring admin cap might be wise (and honestly getting rid of your starting bureaucrats immediately is probably a good idea), but not getting your admin cap above your sprawl later on in the game seems insane. Replacing some of your scientists and culture workers with bureaucrats will likely be clearly better. And of course, bureaucrats are basically just a building slot tax, since you only need them when actually finishing a tech/tradition. You can just disable the admin offices the rest of the time. If you have social welfare/utopian abundance/shared burdens the unemployment event won't trigger, and it just gives you criminal underworld anyway if you don't implement the subsidies, which you might have anyway if you already have a crime lord deal. Or you might pair offices with other specialist buildings, e.g. disabling a research lab every time you enable an admin office and vice versa, keeping everyone employed. Regardless you can avoid paying the cg cost for bureaucrats 90% of the time.
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Mar 15, 2020 19:56
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Anyone ever deal with desyncs in this game? My friend was just in the big 14 person stream and had no issues the entire time but when he streams Stellaris with us it desyncs like crazy. Is there some sort of port forwarding we should be doing?
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Mar 15, 2020 20:09
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I think the multiplayer meta will have an economic inflection point where it's a good move to ditch ALL of your research, unity and administration jobs into pure energy and alloy production until you swarm the galaxy. If this becomes too effective I can see paradox reinstating some sort of energy cost to being over the admin cap, you either want to be exactly on it while developing your economy or ignore it entirely while going ham on military.
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Mar 15, 2020 20:43
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https://youtu.be/fBWVU5UETEc Spiff gets to start with a hegemony
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Mar 15, 2020 20:45
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AnEdgelord posted:https://youtu.be/fBWVU5UETEc Spiff was the friend I was talking about. Playing with him is ridiculous sometimes. He hit me with 30k troops 30 minutes into the game last time we played.
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Mar 15, 2020 21:11
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Staltran posted:And of course, bureaucrats are basically just a building slot tax, since you only need them when actually finishing a tech/tradition. An example would be: A tech is showing that it will be done in 8 months. The month rolls over; the above tech is down to 7 months. A different tech that increases your Admin Capacity completes. However, because your Admin Capacity went up, that tech will now instead be done in 6 months despite only one month passing since you saw that it needed 8. Does that make sense? Am I crazy?
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Mar 15, 2020 21:15
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I've seen a few people mention this, so I'm not calling you out, I'm just asking in general: I thought that tech cost and other costs that are based on your Admin Capacity/how far over it you are, and will adjust over time? Thus having the admin capacity exceeded by less at the time of completing a tech will not lock a new tech's cost at a lower number? This is hard to explain succinctly... It costs a certain amount of research. It tracks simply (amount gathered) vs (amount required to advance), which is why (eg) if you finish a unity advance but don't active it before a colony ship finishes its job then you have to wait another month (or more).
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Mar 15, 2020 21:26
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AnEdgelord posted:https://youtu.be/fBWVU5UETEc Paradox stepping up their QA I see
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Mar 15, 2020 21:36
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I've seen a few people mention this, so I'm not calling you out, I'm just asking in general: I thought that tech cost and other costs that are based on your Admin Capacity/how far over it you are, and will adjust over time? Thus having the admin capacity exceeded by less at the time of completing a tech will not lock a new tech's cost at a lower number? This is hard to explain succinctly... I'm not quite sure what you're asking here exactly, but an example of what I mean: You are researching Cruisers. The tech has a base cost of 8000. You have an empire sprawl of 230. With no bureaucrats, you have an admin cap of 30 (I think?), so you're at 230/30. I believe the tech cost penalty in 2.6 is +50% per 100 sprawl, so you have a +100% tech cost modifier. The displayed cost of Cruisers is 16000. You research cruisers until you're at, say, 7900/16000. Let's say you get at least 100 engineering a month after multipliers from scientist skill etc. You hire twenty bureaucrats, bringing you to 230/230 sprawl/admin cap. Now you're at 7900/8000, and will complete cruisers at the end of the month. You get all the benefit from the bureaucrats, despite only having them (and paying their cg cost) for a month. (Speaking of tech costs: for some reason the techs introduced by Apocalypse (i.e. colossuses and colossus weapons still use the old tech cost scaling, making them less than half as expensive as they probably should be. Weird)
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Mar 15, 2020 21:39
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Who wants to obsessively micro their bureaucrats and constantly have to keep making notes and checking up on research progress though
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Mar 15, 2020 21:42
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Crazycryodude posted:Who wants to obsessively micro their bureaucrats and constantly have to keep making notes and checking up on research progress though Yeah that seems insanely tedious
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Mar 15, 2020 21:44
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I'm 100% gonna do it, it's not like it's more tedious than resettlement micro or the tile micro pre-2.0 was. Or teleporting governors around to farm exp back when every planet had a governor slot. I'm used to Stellaris having a lot of clicks. Or wrestling with pop assignment after 2.2 which I've sometimes done. Plus it seems like it's actually really high impact. Plus I think you're probably overestimating the effort, just disable/enable admin offices and enable/disable one other specialist building on one planet to prevent workers promoting, click the next planet button, repeat. Bonus points if you're shared burdens and have the harmony tradition for -50% pop demotion time for instant demotions. You save a lot of cgs this way and also probably have the pops doing something useful when not bureaucrating too. Staltran fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Mar 15, 2020 |
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Mar 15, 2020 22:11
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Crazycryodude posted:Who wants to obsessively micro their bureaucrats and constantly have to keep making notes and checking up on research progress though Bureaucrats.
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Mar 15, 2020 22:29
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Wanted to play some Stellaris without getting too deep so I tried out the Stellaris Immortal mod. If you haven't played it the biggest thing it does is rework planets so that you only get 4 building slots and a whole new set of districts. Districts now create jobs and buildings modify the production of workers. I kind of like how that works more than I do the default system, although all the other changes I'm not a huge fan of like technology, starbase buildings (partly because some stuff isn't clear on how it works), planet blockers, the basic resource production, and some other stuff. Even if the patch fixes performance, and assuming the mod continues, it's worth checking out if you really don't like the current planet management.
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Mar 15, 2020 22:50
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Staltran posted:I'm not quite sure what you're asking here exactly, but an example of what I mean: Is that definitely how it works now? I could see it also scaling your tech progress as you acquire bureaucrats. EG: You're researching cruisers, and you're at 7900/16000. You hire twenty bureaucrats. You're now at 3950/8000.
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Mar 15, 2020 23:12
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Staltran posted:I'm not quite sure what you're asking here exactly, but an example of what I mean:
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Mar 15, 2020 23:45
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Crazycryodude posted:Who wants to obsessively micro their bureaucrats and constantly have to keep making notes and checking up on research progress though It's also super dumb since it would be trivial to have admin cap reduce unity/science income rather than increase tradition/research costs.
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Mar 15, 2020 23:51
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Staltran posted:I'm 100% gonna do it, it's not like it's more tedious than resettlement micro or the tile micro pre-2.0 was. Or teleporting governors around to farm exp back when every planet had a governor slot. None of those are things sane people do. And more importantly, none of those are things the AI does, so there's no reason to ever do it yourself. They really need to get rid of manual resettlement and manual job controls to save the few people who can't help themselves from themselves.
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Mar 16, 2020 00:11
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Who cares what the AI does or does not do? Do you also use the ship auto-design and randomly generate your empire? Also pretty cool to imply people who play a video game differently from you are insane.Gort posted:Is that definitely how it works now? I could see it also scaling your tech progress as you acquire bureaucrats. There's been no mention of any such change as far as I know. I'd expect that to have been in the patch notes. You could check the new videos to see if your accumulated unity goes down when you get more admin cap. Might do that tomorrow, but at this point I might just as well wait until Tuesday to see.
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Mar 16, 2020 00:25
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DatonKallandor posted:None of those are things sane people do. And more importantly, none of those are things the AI does, so there's no reason to ever do it yourself. They really need to get rid of manual resettlement and manual job controls to save the few people who can't help themselves from themselves. Just removing manual resettlement won't solve the reasons for people using it. The whole pops unlock building slots and colony setup phases are garbage and need to go. Splicer fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Mar 16, 2020 |
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Mar 16, 2020 00:35
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Splicer posted:Just removing manual resettlement won't solve the reasons for people using it. The whole pops unlock building slots and colony setup phases are garbage and need to go.
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Mar 16, 2020 02:39
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I remember becoming extremely suspicious of that update when they announced in a dev diary that infrastructure was being removed as a mechanic and explicitly confirmed that a single pop fluctuation would result in a ruined building.
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Mar 16, 2020 04:20
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Maybe they can loosen the planet management up a bit now that the AI won't pepper every open building slot with hydroponic commercial zones.
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Mar 16, 2020 05:21
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Splicer posted:In the first half of the game I resettle new colonies to 10 pops because it's either that or wait a decade or so before I can a) do anything interesting with my new planet and b) stop it from haemorrhaging pops from my other planets A much less micro-intensive way of doing this (albeit less optimal) is to turn on migration controls. Your home world gets to grow as normal as the colonies sort themselves out. In fact, just turn off migration if you're resettling anyways. The crazy emigration penalties do not line up with the immigration bonus', so just loving turn that poo poo off when expanding early and play however you want, resettlement optional now instead of near-mandatory. God the pop growth is this game is borked, I found out by myself when looking into how my devouring swarm ate pops, and suddenly all those posts from years back about 'exploitative behavior' suddenly made sense. But that's all kinda just small busy-work. The two "big" things that Stellaris needed was sane performance (possibly fixed, yay?) and some sort of functional planet automation that you can walk away from. We'll see what 2.6 brings.
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Mar 16, 2020 05:31
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Splicer posted:In the first half of the game I resettle new colonies to 10 pops because it's either that or wait a decade or so before I can a) do anything interesting with my new planet and b) stop it from haemorrhaging pops from my other planets, While it costs you pop growth, you don't actually lose anything, your immigration loss and gain should sum to zero.
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Mar 16, 2020 05:59
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Yea, except it doesn't. Take the sedentary trait and see what happens; pop migration is a very abstract slurry where you can literally generate free pops, last I heard.
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Mar 16, 2020 06:03
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PittTheElder posted:While it costs you pop growth, you don't actually lose anything, your immigration loss and gain should sum to zero. It actually doesnt. Nomadic and Sedentary actually summon or throw pops into the void. Also lol at people that don't resettle. I'm so glad they added auto resettlement now but it really ought to not be restricted to an unlock in the GC.
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Mar 16, 2020 06:04
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Oh that is a good point, I forgot nomadic and sedentary were things. But without those I've never seen it sum to anything other than zero.
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Mar 16, 2020 06:08
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The devs explicitly said that migration is just a bonus/malus to pop growth, if the numbers are lining up when you're checking that's mostly just happy coincidence. There are many other things other than those two racial traits that can affect the migration numbers, it's very easy to make an empire that summons pops, or accidentally screw yourself horribly by not disabling migration when the numbers are net negative.
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Mar 16, 2020 06:15
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Serephina posted:The devs explicitly said that migration is just a bonus/malus to pop growth, if the numbers are lining up when you're checking that's mostly just happy coincidence. There are many other things other than those two racial traits that can affect the migration numbers, it's very easy to make an empire that summons pops, or accidentally screw yourself horribly by not disabling migration when the numbers are net negative. 1) You have sedentary pops 2) You have migration treaties with more attractive empires 3) You have planets hitting the +5 immigration cap You can solve number 3 by having more planets with high immigration pull (ie free jobs), or by lowering immigration push on some planets.
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Mar 16, 2020 07:24
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I still think science, alloys and consumer goods need to be districts. Building slot numbers should be unlocked from the start and the amount of building slots a planet has should depend on the planet size. The only buildings that should exist are the boost buildings, military/defense buildings, extra housing, amenities, and so forth.
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Mar 16, 2020 07:44
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Staltran posted:I'm 100% gonna do it, it's not like it's more tedious than resettlement micro or the tile micro pre-2.0 was. Or teleporting governors around to farm exp back when every planet had a governor slot. I'm used to Stellaris having a lot of clicks. Or wrestling with pop assignment after 2.2 which I've sometimes done. Plus it seems like it's actually really high impact. What you're proposing doing actually sounds way more tedious than resettlement micro. Resettlement micro for me entails scrolling through a list of planets from time to time and checking for red, then moving pops around to make the red go away. I really don't want to keep an in-game calendar of the specific months in which I need to convert my entire workforce into bureaucrats, so I won't, but I will probably still shuffle around pops cause that doesn't make me want to neural staple myself
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Mar 16, 2020 08:16
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Serephina posted:A much less micro-intensive way of doing this (albeit less optimal) is to turn on migration controls. Your home world gets to grow as normal as the colonies sort themselves out.
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Mar 16, 2020 11:37
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