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1stGear
Jan 16, 2010

Here's to the new us.

Hel posted:

This really seems like a case of "hey you know that thing that everyone praised us for, let's throw that away and do the opposite".

Again, you can skip every cutscene in the game. This is as opposed to Doom 2016 where you couldn't and instead were forced to listen to a robot man talk at you for five minutes.

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rodbeard
Jul 21, 2005

Ugly In The Morning posted:

The character creation in Wasteland 2 was horrifyingly bad. It basically comes down to “follow a guide, or you’ll be screwed in 20 hours when the game catches up to your suboptimal build and you get stuck”.

I already play CRPGs by restarting halfway through 10 times until I feel like I've got an optimal build so it's actually perfect for me. Likewise I see people bitching about how Baldurs Gate 3 is going to be entirely turn based which is perfect for me because my biggest complaint about most D&D video games is that they try to get away from the janky combat of the original dungeons and dragons.

Zoig
Oct 31, 2010

1stGear posted:

Again, you can skip every cutscene in the game. This is as opposed to Doom 2016 where you couldn't and instead were forced to listen to a robot man talk at you for five minutes.

The point is not that you cant skip them, the point is that the cutscenes themselves are there and dumb. It doesnt help that they are very talky and very, very dumb and only a fun dumb way when vega is around. Its basically another symptom of a overall problem with the game. I have never felt like a game was overly cocky before but if people can call games confident in their identity i can absolutely call doom eternal too cocky for its own good.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Is it weird that in the run-up to release I saw all the stuff about the flamethrower, blade, and jetpack and got flashes to The Simpsons episode where Homer designs a car?

It seems like Doom Eternal is a fine enough game but has a lot of little "wait really?" issues that can be easily explained by too many generals producing it.

Eclipse12
Feb 20, 2008

Doom Eternal stuff:
Good
-Amazing visual design to levels. Sure, they aren't as cohesive, but it's also not merely facility/Hell and nothing in between
- Runs super smooth. I have an old GTX 970 and it defaults to high settings and I can't recall ever getting slowdown
- The dash and double jump DO give you a ton of mobility and the platforming is very fun
- Still better than cover/regen shooters
-High expectations of players. This game is not going to hold your hand through the first 2/3s like some games
-I like the map
-It's fun

Bad
-I feel totally overwhelmed by combat choices. Flamer to add armor, melee for health, chainsaw for ammo, plus grenades, weapon mods, blood punch, weak points... it's too much. Combat moves so fast that I can't even take a moment to see whether I have armor left or my chainsaw has refilled, so sometimes I feel like I'm flailing. Whenever I get the hang of it, they introduce a new element and then it starts over again. I'll go several major encounters and then remember, oh yeah, I totally forgot about grenades. So then I'm TRYING to use them, but that's just getting me hurt in the process
-Having to farm weak enemies for ammo/armor every time you see them between major encounters gets old
-I seriously can't keep track of my buttons anymore, even after rebinding. I have four attacks mapped to mouse and still need my keyboard for several more. Often I forget in the middle of a fight and alt-fire when I meant to flame belch. Ugh.
-As mentioned before, you feel REALLY vulnerable. I can absolutely wreck Doom 2 on hard and rarely felt in danger in Doom 2016, but I constantly feel I'm scrambling to survive on the normal difficulty. These demons are supposed to be scared of ME. But low health, super accurate attacks against you, stupidly low ammo, and spongy enemies take away that badass feeling of 2016. Again, I'm sure I'll get better, but...
I know what they're going for: don't run. They'll catch and kill you. Engage. Use whatever attack is needed in context to keep your ammo, armor, and health filled. It's very ambitious. But I don't think they have the balance right. I can be vaulting through the air, dashing, and still getting hit, and when I land there aren't enough hard-hitting weapons to just gib a few guys to get some breathing room. Half tempted to drop to easy :(
- The story (so far) is a huge letdown. Ruining the Doom Slayer mystique, adding new species with complex histories. The Slayer no longer feels "special." It should never have aspired beyond "Evil company opens portal to Hell, and Hell is bad, so murder everything." No shades of grey. I absolutely adored the simplicity of the backstory in 2016. You are a rampaging nightmare of demons who got so pissed that you literally can't be stopped and you could slay Hell's strongest titans. They are hopeless against you. But now I'm looking at dead 200 foot tall versions of me, wearing my same armor, locked in death blows with equally large demons (and they do visually look awesome) but they don't make me feel like a unique rear end-kicker anomaly, but a small cog in a bigger war of beings beyond my ability. Boooo.
-The runes are lame compared to 2016 and are mainly based around using the clunky new powers. 2016=infinite ammo at 100 armor! Eternal=Enemies burn longer if you remember to use flame belch and can hit something with it without taking more damage than you lose in the process of trying to capitalize on it

Despite all that, I'm going to keep playing because
1. It IS fun
2. I love Doom in all forms
3. I appreciate they didn't just copy 2016 (even in they should have)
4. Visually, it's amazing. The first level had me stopping to just take it in multiple times
5. The moments when you do complete an assault and feel badass are so satisfying

Eclipse12 has a new favorite as of 02:50 on Mar 22, 2020

Zoig
Oct 31, 2010

Eclipse12 posted:

-As mentioned before, you feel REALLY vulnerable. I can absolutely wreck Doom 2 on hard and rarely felt in danger in Doom 2016, but I constantly feel I'm scrambling to survive on the normal difficulty. These demons are supposed to be scared of ME. But low health, super accurate attacks against you, stupidly low ammo, and spongy enemies take away that badass feeling of 2016. Again, I'm sure I'll get better, but...
I know what they're going for: don't run. They'll catch and kill you. Engage. Use whatever attack is needed in context to keep your ammo, armor, and health filled. It's very ambitious. But I don't think they have the balance right. I can be vaulting through the air, dashing, and still getting hit, and when I land there aren't enough hard-hitting weapons to just gib a few guys to get some breathing room. Half tempted to drop to easy :(

This is actually false depending on the map, and required to do later slayer gates well on uv. In particular there's one that has a marauder, who is invulnerable except for tells you have to actively bait out and i did that by just running away from him until i cleared out all the other demons, and that's the intended strat for them too.

Honestly I'm just gonna take a moment to complain about marauders in detail because if it wasn't for how sparingly they get used it would probably make eternal a slog. When they wanted to make a enemy that could keep up with you in theory they somehow completely missed the mark and did the inverse, creating a enemy that drags you down to their level by being only vulnerable on their terms and effectively taking control of the fight from you. The idea is you shoot them when the eyes glow green and then they falter for a few secs so you can shoot them more and what makes it really aggravating is its literally the only way to damage them, if you shoot them when the shield is down and attacking but no flash, they literally bring up the shield on the moment of impact which just feels like garbage. This could easily be solved by making them take a bit less damage while they aren't faltering but shootable during any attack animation giving the player back control while still making them very tough and beefy.

Grognan
Jan 23, 2007

by Fluffdaddy

Zoig posted:

This is actually false depending on the map, and required to do later slayer gates well on uv. In particular there's one that has a marauder, who is invulnerable except for tells you have to actively bait out and i did that by just running away from him until i cleared out all the other demons, and that's the intended strat for them too.

Honestly I'm just gonna take a moment to complain about marauders in detail because if it wasn't for how sparingly they get used it would probably make eternal a slog. When they wanted to make a enemy that could keep up with you in theory they somehow completely missed the mark and did the inverse, creating a enemy that drags you down to their level by being only vulnerable on their terms and effectively taking control of the fight from you. The idea is you shoot them when the eyes glow green and then they falter for a few secs so you can shoot them more and what makes it really aggravating is its literally the only way to damage them, if you shoot them when the shield is down and attacking but no flash, they literally bring up the shield on the moment of impact which just feels like garbage. This could easily be solved by making them take a bit less damage while they aren't faltering but shootable during any attack animation giving the player back control while still making them very tough and beefy.

As pointed out in the game thread, grenades, explosive barrels and remote det rockets bypass the marauder's shield.

BadMedic
Jul 22, 2007

I've never actually seen him heal anybody.
Pillbug
My personal issue dragging Doom Eternal down:
Alt-tabbing in this game is completely, utterly hosed on my PC. I made the mistake of alt-tabbing during a loading screen, and the game froze and stopped anything else from rendering. I had to reboot my PC to get out of it.
Even worse, I switched it to borderless windowed mode, and that's hosed up too. It messed up the rendering order when you alt-tab, so you are stuck looking at one window and clicking on another.
I don't think I've had anything gently caress up alt-tab this badly in a decade.

The Moon Monster
Dec 30, 2005

Eclipse12 posted:

- The story (so far) is a huge letdown. Ruining the Doom Slayer mystique, adding new species with complex histories. The Slayer no longer feels "special." It should never have aspired beyond "Evil company opens portal to Hell, and Hell is bad, so murder everything." No shades of grey. I absolutely adored the simplicity of the backstory in 2016. You are a rampaging nightmare of demons who got so pissed that you literally can't be stopped and you could slay Hell's strongest titans. They are hopeless against you. But now I'm looking at dead 200 foot tall versions of me, wearing my same armor, locked in death blows with equally large demons (and they do visually look awesome) but they don't make me feel like a unique rear end-kicker anomaly, but a small cog in a bigger war of beings beyond my ability. Boooo.

They pulled a Diablo 3? Yuck.

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007

I just wish I wasn't so critically low on ammo all the time. Even when I'm full on ammo I'm still low on ammo.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010
Pillbug

The Lone Badger posted:

I just wish I wasn't so critically low on ammo all the time. Even when I'm full on ammo I'm still low on ammo.

The ammo cap is small on purpose to encourage chainsawing mooks. That one pip of fuel regenerates quick. Always. Be. Chainsawing.

Also change weapons a lot, I like to swap to the cannon and snipe off a weak point then run in with a plasma rifle firing like a madman to charge the overheat secondary.

Brother Entropy
Dec 27, 2009

this is less a 'thing from a video game dragging it down' and more a 'thing from my brain dragging a video game down' but man, i remember being a kid and having zero qualms about making all kinds of custom clothes or wallpapers in animal crossing that all probably looked gaudy and awful in retrospect

but now that i'm an adult that understands shame i'm way more self-conscious and hypercritical about my lack of art skills :smith:

Eclipse12
Feb 20, 2008

Ugly In The Morning posted:


Also change weapons a lot,

The slowdown effect in the weapon wheel feels waaay less, um, slow. That's bad. You don't have time to really examine and think about your weapons when you open the wheel anymore. So that's just one more thing you have to try and multitask under immense pressure.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

The Moon Monster posted:

They pulled a Diablo 3? Yuck.

Seems to be the case. Popular, lightning in a bottle game followed up by a sequel designed in committee by suits' ideas of what's badass and cool.

oldpainless
Oct 30, 2009

This 📆 post brought to you by RAID💥: SHADOW LEGENDS👥.
RAID💥: SHADOW LEGENDS 👥 - It's for your phone📲TM™ #ad📢

Not to be a one trick pony but I also have a gripe about Doom


















3 which I’m replaying. It’s a very one trick pony. Grab a power up and a wall slides down and an imp comes out behind you. Walk down a corridor and a demon spawns in front of you and then make sure you turn around because one spawns begins you. It’s a very one trick pony. If it happened once it’s happened a thousand times before like a one trick pony. It quickly becomes aggravating and boring much like a one trick pony. You ever had something boring and repetitive happen boringly and repetitively like some kind of one trick pony? That’s Doom 3, which is a one trick pony.

Captain Hygiene
Sep 17, 2007

You mess with the crabbo...



oldpainless posted:

Not to be a one trick pony but I also have a gripe about Doom


















3 which I’m replaying. It’s a very one trick pony. Grab a power up and a wall slides down and an imp comes out behind you. Walk down a corridor and a demon spawns in front of you and then make sure you turn around because one spawns begins you. It’s a very one trick pony. If it happened once it’s happened a thousand times before like a one trick pony. It quickly becomes aggravating and boring much like a one trick pony. You ever had something boring and repetitive happen boringly and repetitively like some kind of one trick pony? That’s Doom 3, which is a one trick pony.

I think I know a F2P mobile game that could sidestep all these problems

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Cythereal posted:

Seems to be the case. Popular, lightning in a bottle game followed up by a sequel designed in committee by suits' ideas of what's some 13-35 male losers in focus groups think is badass and cool.

Crowetron
Apr 29, 2009


No where is that more clear than Doomguy's edgelord man cave.

Samuringa
Mar 27, 2017

Best advice I was ever given?

"Ticker, you'll be a lot happier once you stop caring about the opinions of a culture that is beneath you."

I learned my worth, learned the places and people that matter.

Opened my eyes.

Maybe it'll get better after you make another dozen posts repeating the same thing.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

The important thing is you're paying attention.

oldpainless
Oct 30, 2009

This 📆 post brought to you by RAID💥: SHADOW LEGENDS👥.
RAID💥: SHADOW LEGENDS 👥 - It's for your phone📲TM™ #ad📢

Samuringa posted:

Maybe it'll get better after you make another dozen posts repeating the same thing.

I agree, their posting is certainly a one trick pony

Crowetron
Apr 29, 2009

walrus please don't complain about video games in the thread for complaining about video games. You're supposed to post...wait a minute.

An Actual Princess
Dec 23, 2006

marauders become trivial once you start using the arbalest on them. it's way more reliable than the super shotgun and only takes like 6 hits to kill one

that slayer gate with the marauder and the drones was a nightmare until i tried that. you can effortlessly pop the drones' heads for health and ammo with one hit with the arbalest too

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007

mind the walrus posted:

Seems to be the case. Popular, lightning in a bottle game followed up by a sequel designed in committee by suits' ideas of what's some 13-35 male losers in focus groups think is badass and cool.

Ah, I'm 36 which explains why it's not quite hitting for me.

SubNat
Nov 27, 2008

I see you haven't gotten to the point where the game basically throws 5+ pages worth of "RIP AND TEAR RIP AND TEAR!!!!!" at you.

Early in the game, an announcer/billboard npc makes an offhand "We've got HUGE GUTS!" in support of the evil corp, if you get her to say a couple things.
I thought that was an amusing nod to the whole 'You're huge! That means you have huge guts! Rip and Tear!'
A throwaway line, that you have to egg on an announcer to make, which is all it needed to be.

But then the game basically drowns itself in setting fanwank, and it just feels like the writers are writing it one-handedly.

I just turned the game off for the day after an exceptionally loving dumb twist, and I can't wait to see how loving poorly it's executed.
Very late game:
Why the gently caress couldn't VEGA just be a loving normal AI. Just a normal AI operating way outside normal parameters by piggybacking along the DOOMTRAIN with Doomguy.
Why does every loving thing have to be the most specially amazingly special superspecial 'wouldn't it be cool if----' thing?

Ambaire
Sep 4, 2009

by Shine
Oven Wrangler

SubNat posted:

Very late game:
Why the gently caress couldn't VEGA just be a loving normal AI. Just a normal AI operating way outside normal parameters by piggybacking along the DOOMTRAIN with Doomguy.
Why does every loving thing have to be the most specially amazingly special superspecial 'wouldn't it be cool if----' thing?


I thought Doom 2016 sacrificed VEGA to open a portal or something? How did he/it come back?

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
See everything I've seen of Doomguy's office is quite funny- cheesy as poo poo, of course, but entirely consistent with his character.

Honestly the SA forums seem way more down on it than anyone else.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

Ambaire posted:

I thought Doom 2016 sacrificed VEGA to open a portal or something? How did he/it come back?

doomguy's shown making a backup of him before doing the thing in 2016

apparently he took a shine to him

Crowetron
Apr 29, 2009

Maxwell Lord posted:

See everything I've seen of Doomguy's office is quite funny- cheesy as poo poo, of course, but entirely consistent with his character.

Honestly the SA forums seem way more down on it than anyone else.

It's not just that little office. It's a big dumb castle you have to wander around between each level using collectables to open doors that get you more collectables. It's a joke that gets old the second time you see it.

But you can listen to the unlocked music tracks while you do your busy work, which is a huge improvement over a lot of games that still stop playing unlocked tracks as soon as you close the menu. It's a good selection of classic Id songs, too.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Crowetron posted:

It's not just that little office. It's a big dumb castle you have to wander around between each level using collectables to open doors that get you more collectables. It's a joke that gets old the second time you see it.

I mean, it's a hub.

The Doom games have always had downtime between fights, Eternal maybe has more exploration than before but much of it is optional.

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012




Cythereal posted:

Seems to be the case. Popular, lightning in a bottle game followed up by a sequel designed in committee by suits' ideas of what's badass and cool.

I have never been a suit nor have I known what's badass and cool and even I know that giving the Doomslayer dialogue would be a terrible loving idea.

And I didn't even care about Doom 2016 to play it!

Crowetron
Apr 29, 2009

Maxwell Lord posted:

I mean, it's a hub.

The Doom games have always had downtime between fights, Eternal maybe has more exploration than before but much of it is optional.

There's downtime and exploration in the actual levels. The hub doesn't accomplish anything a menu couldn't do better. It's not as bad as say, Fable 3 replacing all menus with an actual level you have to walk around, but it gets old.

SubNat
Nov 27, 2008

Ambaire posted:

I thought Doom 2016 sacrificed VEGA to open a portal or something? How did he/it come back?

I dunno if you really need to spoiler a ~4 year old game.

But yes.
You blow him up to open a portal but as you do, Doomguy takes a backup copy of him.

Between 2016 and 2020
You somehow just... have a large Sentinel Fortress that can warp you anywhere, and VEGA's plugged into it and does logistics for you.
It kinda feels like they skipped a game worth of stuff happening between getting kicked back into hell by Hayden -> Somehow getting VEGA online -> Somehow getting a loving battle-fortress that's capable of warping you almost anywhere in the galaxy.


I was kind of expecting Doom Eternal to just start up right after 2016, for whatever reason.
Finding some of the lost UAC equipment from some of their failed excursions, slapping VEGA into that, and figuring out where to go from there, since Doomguy isn't exactly a long-term-planner kind of guy.

Of course, VEGA still suffers from the typical trope of an AI basically just being a conciousness you can quickly and easily transport between different systems with just a second or two of time to back them up and transport them away.

Though I guess I haven't really seen many pieces of media where that isn't the case.
Portal 2 maybe? Glados is as linked to the chip that gets shoved into that potato as a human is to their brain, no backup routine or anything, just locked to a tiny chip that can be interfaced with other hardware.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007
the doom eternal thread has people accusing others of mental illness if they don't like it, so that's entertaining

everything about it says "deep discount" to me

Samuringa
Mar 27, 2017

Best advice I was ever given?

"Ticker, you'll be a lot happier once you stop caring about the opinions of a culture that is beneath you."

I learned my worth, learned the places and people that matter.

Opened my eyes.

Crowetron posted:

walrus please don't complain about video games in the thread for complaining about video games. You're supposed to post...wait a minute.

You're both overblowing it to an hilariously childish degree.

Smirking_Serpent
Aug 27, 2009

i love nier automata but gently caress the map is awful

An Actual Princess
Dec 23, 2006

the writing is dumb but genuinely who loving cares? who gives a poo poo? there are real things to criticize about doom eternal (the purple goop is the biggest momentum killer possible, the checkpoint system kinda sucks, the combat learning curve is pretty steep) without having to say "the writing in this new doom game is dumb"

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007
haven't seen this kind of faintly hysterical defensiveness from a video game's supporters since DmC

An Actual Princess
Dec 23, 2006

imagine the rolleyes emote but like really big

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Samuringa
Mar 27, 2017

Best advice I was ever given?

"Ticker, you'll be a lot happier once you stop caring about the opinions of a culture that is beneath you."

I learned my worth, learned the places and people that matter.

Opened my eyes.

Oxxidation posted:

haven't seen this kind of faintly hysterical defensiveness from a video game's supporters since DmC

On the other hand, goons tripping each other up to be the most contrarian happens every day.

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