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SilverMike
Sep 17, 2007

TBD


Infinity Gaia posted:

Man, I'm super wary of getting this on release. I loved HotK 1 and 2 but 3 was so loving awful...

Looks like its back to the 1 and 2 style for the Hero of the Kingdom Lost Tales, and there's a demo you can check out.

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FastestGunAlive
Apr 7, 2010

Dancing palm tree.

Antigravitas posted:

Yes you can. Especially if you host your own server with some server-side scripting and tweaking.

My personal favourite mission I've ever hosted dropped players on a new map they had not seen before with no navigation tools whatsoever beside map and compass. And thinking back, I should've taken away those too. They were told to find a way off that island. No global chat, no voip, no radios. Stay together or get lost in the woods and eaten by NATO.

ACE + TFAR are also an incredible combination. You can disable a ton of ACE stuff, but ACE brings many really nice QOL features and a less binary medical system, while TFAR brings not only really cool directional audio much better than the ingame one, the radio simulation is also immersive as gently caress. You can run up to team mates to have quick one on one conversations without bothering the others. If someone speaks on the radio you still hear them in directional if you are close.

Also, get Achilles or Zeus Enhanced. It's a client-side mod for Zeus and has a ton of useful add-ons. Like quickly spawning reinforcements including transport. Or turning a van into a VBIED and scaring the poo poo out of people. :allears:

Another favourite: Spawn Blackfish (Armed), set to low speed, set keep altitude 800m, then drop a loiter beacon (counter clockwise) at range ~1km, and force hold fire.

Loiter over something and take control of the gunner. You can now absolutely terrify the squad by raining death with your 120mm cannon, the autocannon, or the gatling.

Sounds fun. Are people still playing this game that do these kind of things or is it the terrible milsim tryhards it always was?

SolidSnakesBandana
Jul 1, 2007

Infinite ammo

Nordick posted:

because I already had all the cool looking cosmetics I wanted, and there's *nothing else* to use it on. This was equally disheartening in a different way.

I never understood this sentiment. So you want cool things to buy, but you never want to actually get them because chasing them is the fun part?

Samuringa
Mar 27, 2017

Best advice I was ever given?

"Ticker, you'll be a lot happier once you stop caring about the opinions of a culture that is beneath you."

I learned my worth, learned the places and people that matter.

Opened my eyes.
That's an incredible misread of their post. They got their gold stolen but realized later there was not even a point to having any gold because there's nothing left to buy.

SolidSnakesBandana
Jul 1, 2007

Infinite ammo
What? I feel like you've misread my post. A common sentiment among Sea of Thieves is "why even bother playing the game and getting gold because there's nothing to spend it on" and to me that seems silly.

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

SolidSnakesBandana posted:

I never understood this sentiment. So you want cool things to buy, but you never want to actually get them because chasing them is the fun part?
When the goal of a game is to "make money" or collect some other sort of valuable object, then having something interesting to use it on is pretty important, because otherwise it quickly feels like nothing more than an 8-bit era high score - which is really not very satisfying unless there's some kind ladder to compare it against. Pointless busywork is frustrating and not fun.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!

SolidSnakesBandana posted:

What? I feel like you've misread my post. A common sentiment among Sea of Thieves is "why even bother playing the game and getting gold because there's nothing to spend it on" and to me that seems silly.
does that really seem silly?

SolidSnakesBandana
Jul 1, 2007

Infinite ammo
Man I am having a really hard time putting this into words so I apologize ahead of time. I feel like you only perceive it as pointless busywork. I perceive it as gameplay, just as I do in every game that has fun gameplay but no tangible reward for winning.

No Wave posted:

does that really seem silly?

It's basically saying, "Well, bought all the things. Games not fun now" The gameplay is the same as it was before you bought the things. The things aren't actually affecting your gameplay. It's just like, a shirt.

SolidSnakesBandana fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Apr 17, 2020

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
But then why acquire gold instead of just wandering around? Having reward structures is part of what makes gameplay work in general (even if the reward is just "see the next level"). If gold has zero value it's like playing soccer with the goals removed from the field.

SolidSnakesBandana
Jul 1, 2007

Infinite ammo
I use the voyages to give me a general direction to sail in and a task to do while I watch the horizon for other ships to fight, because fighting other ships is the real gameplay. Also the Tall Tales, which are fun to just play and I couldn't care less about any rewards they give. I bought the Sea Dogs outfit early on and feel no need to ever change it.

No Wave posted:

But then why acquire gold instead of just wandering around? Having reward structures is part of what makes gameplay work in general (even if the reward is just "see the next level"). If gold has zero value it's like playing soccer with the goals removed from the field.

I'd say it's like playing soccer only you get nothing when you win. Which is what happens in probably every game of soccer you've ever personally played. You played soccer because you like playing soccer.

SolidSnakesBandana fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Apr 17, 2020

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

SolidSnakesBandana posted:

Man I am having a really hard time putting this into words so I apologize ahead of time. I feel like you only perceive it as pointless busywork. I perceive it as gameplay, just as I do in every game that has fun gameplay but no tangible reward for winning.
Maybe I'm not really making the point very well myself. It has something to do with disappointed expectations. When a game makes you collect money, there's an expectation that you will have something to spend it on, that it has tangible value in the context of the game. There is an assumption of delayed gratification there. In a way it's just a matter of presentation, but it's something that matters to a lot of people.

It's why, for example, I find it so much easier to replay Dark Souls and derivative games than a lot of other action-RPGs of that sort. Souls are always valuable and you always have reason to want them. It gives me a drive to fight every enemy I encounter in a way that receiving no reward over what simply avoiding them would get me (which is to say nothing) doesn't.

SolidSnakesBandana
Jul 1, 2007

Infinite ammo

Cardiovorax posted:

It's why, for example, I find it so much easier to replay Dark Souls and derivative games than a lot of other action-RPGs of that sort. Souls are always valuable and you always have reason to want them. It gives me a drive to fight every enemy I encounter in a way that receiving no reward over what simply avoiding them would get me (which is to say nothing) doesn't.

I feel like this implies that you wouldn't be having fun with the gameplay unless you had this promise of the souls reward.

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

SolidSnakesBandana posted:

I feel like this implies that you wouldn't be having fun with the gameplay unless you had this promise of the souls reward.
I think I would have less fun with it and would avoid more enemies than I do. The gameplay of Dark Souls is solid, but it can also get repetitive. The constant sense of success that you receive from souls and dropped items makes difficult or frustrating enemies feel like less of an annoyance or obstacle and more like a reward in the waiting. It gives a game more staying power in my eyes. Does that make any sense to you?

SolidSnakesBandana
Jul 1, 2007

Infinite ammo
Yeah, it does. I feel like I should point out that I'm not trying to imply that I'm right and you're wrong. I think we both have valid opinions!

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.
It's no problem. I just wanted to explain where I was coming from.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?


I think the football analogy is good for Sea of Thieves, but there's also the win or loss aspect that gets people playing and wanting to improve. With Sea of Thieves, that victory/defeat loop is a bit ill defined. Instead of winning a whole cohesive gameplay loop, you can win or lose at a certain set of activities individually, which I guess is why they made that arena mode.

Cardiovorax posted:

I think I would have less fun with it and would avoid more enemies than I do. The gameplay of Dark Souls is solid, but it can also get repetitive. The constant sense of success that you receive from souls and dropped items makes difficult or frustrating enemies feel like less of an annoyance or obstacle and more like a reward in the waiting. It gives a game more staying power in my eyes. Does that make any sense to you?

Reward and feedback loops are very interesting. I think with Dark Souls, the reward is definitely in beating the boss fights, but souls are a means to that end. Maybe the first time beating hard normal enemies too, but once that reward fades and it becomes commonplace, then they become a means to the harder enemies and bosses via souls. Or alternatively you're just a loot treadmill kinda guy and that's fair enough too. Point is, in its normal mode, Sea of Thieves has none of that tied together, so even if some parts of it are fun, it just doesn't mesh together in an enjoyable loop.

singateco
Jan 28, 2013
I get baffled by the separation of reward loops and "Gameplay" every time. Some people have extremely narrow view of what "gameplay" consists of, and it sure feels like some feel superior by being able to enjoy games without "skinner box" mechanics... when it was there from arcade times!

Nordick
Sep 3, 2011

Yes.

SolidSnakesBandana posted:

What? I feel like you've misread my post. A common sentiment among Sea of Thieves is "why even bother playing the game and getting gold because there's nothing to spend it on" and to me that seems silly.

I guess in this case my problem is a matter of expectations. Since gathering gold is there in the core gameplay loop, it puts me in a headspace where I expect there to be something cool and interesting to spend the gold on. And I don't even mind all the rewards being just cosmetics, I'd happily keep plundering the seas for gold to buy new frilly shirts or whatever, if the visual customisation was more interesting. As it is, most of what's there just isn't appealing.

Now on the other hand, if the whole gold-hoarding weren't a thing to begin with, i.e. if the game just went "Yarrrr, success! You found the crystal coconut, great job matey!" it'd likely make me approach the whole thing differently and I could better focus on loving around, getting shitfaced and playing Ride of the Valkyries while our ship sinks.

EDIT: Also I just play a lot of games like Warframe, various ARPGs, etc; stuff where some sort of character progression via rewards earned from gameplay are very much the crux of the experience. So you know, my brain is just inherently wired to that poo poo.

Nordick fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Apr 17, 2020

SolidSnakesBandana
Jul 1, 2007

Infinite ammo

singateco posted:

I get baffled by the separation of reward loops and "Gameplay" every time. Some people have extremely narrow view of what "gameplay" consists of, and it sure feels like some feel superior by being able to enjoy games without "skinner box" mechanics... when it was there from arcade times!

You're totally right, the criteria of what gameplay is has totally changed. I suspect that mobile games had something to do with this. Either way it makes it extremely difficult to read reviews because the person writing them might have a totally different idea of what makes a game good. "BACK IN THE DAY" it felt like game magazines and reviews generally agreed on what made a game good.

A good example is the just released RE3 remake. You got about half of people saying its a glorified expansion pack and about half of people saying its really good (if short). I have a feeling I am in the camp of people that will think its really good but I'm not sure.

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.
It is a very complex subject and there isn't really a right or wrong answer there, so I don't begrudge people their opinion on it. I get a sense of achievement and satisfaction out of slowly developing and perfecting my character over time, so of course that's something I really like to see in games.

SolidSnakesBandana posted:

A good example is the just released RE3 remake. You got about half of people saying its a glorified expansion pack and about half of people saying its really good (if short). I have a feeling I am in the camp of people that will think its really good but I'm not sure.
I think it's legitimately kind of both.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
It has nothing to do with modern gaming. Even Tetris had scores, even windows 95 solitaire has a cool cascading animation when you win, even minesweeper has a high score board. Very few games are supposed to be a repetitive pleasurable act with no sense of progression or purpose.

SolidSnakesBandana
Jul 1, 2007

Infinite ammo
Maybe this is just me but I've never once paid attention to my score in any of those oldschool games.

Zachack
Jun 1, 2000




SolidSnakesBandana posted:

Maybe this is just me but I've never once paid attention to my score in any of those oldschool games.

Most oldschool games have levels or escalation or some sense of progress. Pacman and Tetris get faster. Asteroids has more rocks. Tempest changes the color of the levels once you loop and gets a fuckload harder.

I know I played a couple games that had little progression or alteration and barely any scoring and after looping a couple times I would walk away from my game (or let some other kid play it) because it was simply an endurance test against my limbs to keep making a repetitive action and nothing else. Those were bad games.

Lord Lambeth
Dec 7, 2011


It looks like someone is making a game for me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAVoHFRytOQ

baka kaba
Jul 19, 2003

PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

it's not either/or, there's gameplay in the actual stuff you're doing, but there's also a sense of progression on top of that. For some games there's only one of those things and that's fine for a lot of people! Sometimes number go up is enough, and sometimes just playing a thing where nothing's changed by the end of it (and maybe even no sense of winning or losing) is enough too

But if a game has gameplay and progression, and people like it, if one of those things changes then what's left might not be enough for everyone. So maybe sailing around fighting people to secure loot to buy Thing is fun, and maybe sailing around so number can go up isn't so much. And if you don't care, that affects the gameplay - not much tension if you have nothing to gain and nothing to lose, right?

Owl Inspector
Sep 14, 2011

It feels like a lack of “reward” or long term progression works best when a game still has a definite goal or win state you can achieve. Left 4 dead managed to remain very popular and engaging to play with no form of progression between matches, even after a lot of competitors like payday came out with myriad progression systems. it feels engaging to scrape through a L4D campaign in isolation even with no promise of future rewards because it definitively ends and bookends itself, and the win itself is the reward you’re working toward. more open-ended games that don’t have that kind of structure built in need something else to keep you going.

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.
Having a "win state" is actually often considered one of the defining traits that separate a game from a toy. Having rules, involving some kind of evaluation of skill or competition, and having a victory state is how the game theory definition of "a game" generally goes, if I remember it correctly. A toy is something you "just play with," as it were - it's pure gameplay for the sake of playing. A game is something that you can win.

Tiny Timbs
Sep 6, 2008

Lord Lambeth posted:

It looks like someone is making a game for me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAVoHFRytOQ

inevitable frogger minigame

baka kaba
Jul 19, 2003

PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

Cardiovorax posted:

Having a "win state" is actually often considered one of the defining traits that separate a game from a toy. Having rules, involving some kind of evaluation of skill or competition, and having a victory state is how the game theory definition of "a game" generally goes, if I remember it correctly. A toy is something you "just play with," as it were - it's pure gameplay for the sake of playing. A game is something that you can win.

I feel like this is getting philosophical, because GTA V is still a game or was it ever hohoho if people go online and just screw around without caring about missions or how much money they have. Or any other online thing where you can just drop in and make your own fun. I guess you could argue that you're playing it like it's a toy, but eh I don't think we need those kinds of definitions, they seem a bit limiting and reductive?

But along those lines, is something like Sea of Thieves still a game if the formal measure of "success" becomes meaningless? What's really changed about the gameplay, except the fact you don't care as much about officially "winning" by increasing your amount of useless gold?

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

baka kaba posted:

I feel like this is getting philosophical
You're right, it is, I just find it interesting. There actually used to be a genre called "software toys" back in the day, just little apps you could mess around in, but that didn't really give you any concrete goals. The industry jargon eventually moved away from that, whether it's because most players preferred games or because there's more of a stigma attached to saying that you play with toys than to saying that you play games, who knows.

I find it useful sometimes to draw that kind of distinction, though, if only to make it easier to find what you're specifically looking for when you search a store or ask people for recommendations.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.


Cardiovorax posted:

Having a "win state" is actually often considered one of the defining traits that separate a game from a toy. Having rules, involving some kind of evaluation of skill or competition, and having a victory state is how the game theory definition of "a game" generally goes, if I remember it correctly. A toy is something you "just play with," as it were - it's pure gameplay for the sake of playing. A game is something that you can win.

What are you referring to you when you say game theory?

Anonymous Robot
Jun 1, 2007

Lost his leg in Robo War I
Anyone here that’s played OlliOlli or the sequel, how do tricks work? The tutorial for tricks lets you pass by doing any trick, but the goals for the first level requires a kickflip, which involves pressing 6 (numpad direction) on the left thumbstick.

Launching into a trick requires holding 2, though, and pressing 236 is a different trick. Pressing 6 while in the air doesn’t trigger it, either, and it doesn’t seem to have to do with grinding either.

baka kaba
Jul 19, 2003

PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

Cardiovorax posted:

You're right, it is, I just find it interesting. There actually used to be a genre called "software toys" back in the day, just little apps you could mess around in, but that didn't really give you any concrete goals. The industry jargon eventually moved away from that, whether it's because most players preferred games or because there's more of a stigma attached to saying that you play with toys than to saying that you play games, who knows.

I find it useful sometimes to draw that kind of distinction, though, if only to make it easier to find what you're specifically looking for when you search a store or ask people for recommendations.

oh yeah, but I mean in a lot of actual games (especially online ones) there aren't necessarily formal rules and systems, or at least people don't always pay attention to them and make their own fun (including sometimes making their own rules for things)

so like with the Sea of Thieves example, ignoring the cashmoney progression, I'd say you have a kind of emergent "game system" in the sense that a lot of the time you're dealing with other players, responding to situations, and a victory or loss in those encounters is totally gonna depend on your perspective - it's very subjective, and whether loot has any meaning is going to hugely influence that

So whether or not it counts as "a game" or "a thing you mess around in" is more about how the player sees it, and changes (like the loot becoming effectively meaningless) can shift that perspective, y'know? The rules haven't changed, neither has the gameplay, but some players might not be getting the same thing out of it anymore. Same reason people can lose interest in open world games once the story's finished, even though you can still do all the fun stuff you could do before

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

ultrafilter posted:

What are you referring to you when you say game theory?
Well, the theoretical concepts of how games work, how people interact with them and how they develop culturally, I suppose? I think I may not have used the term correctly.

baka kaba posted:

So whether or not it counts as "a game" or "a thing you mess around in" is more about how the player sees it, and changes (like the loot becoming effectively meaningless) can shift that perspective, y'know? The rules haven't changed, neither has the gameplay, but some players might not be getting the same thing out of it anymore. Same reason people can lose interest in open world games once the story's finished, even though you can still do all the fun stuff you could do before
Yeah, you're certainly not wrong there. I didn't really mean to make any sort of point with that, I just thought it was an interesting bit of trivia.

Cardiovorax fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Apr 17, 2020

Warbird
May 23, 2012

America's Favorite Dumbass

Lord Lambeth posted:

It looks like someone is making a game for me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAVoHFRytOQ

I'm sure this won't get instanuked by a bunch of bored lawyers.

ErrEff
Feb 13, 2012

Warbird posted:

I'm sure this won't get instanuked by a bunch of bored lawyers.

They seem to aware of that based on the pitch website. They're putting this out there in the hopes that some influencers pick this up and make a video or tweet - the website namedrops Pewdiepie and Jacksepticeye as among those that have played their previous work, so that's the angle they're working.

But yeah, it's definitely gonna get nuked.

Hub Cat
Aug 3, 2011

Trunk Lover

If anybody is interested in trying out DCS flight sims, from the 19th till May 3rd you'll be able to use most of the base planes for free along with a big sale on most of the modules.

DCS posted:

Dear fighter pilots, partners and friends,

The global spread of COVID-19 is affecting every single one of us. We are a people-first company, and we believe that technology can change lives and give hope. To study the virus, protect the vulnerable and beat this thing requires that we all play a part. We want to update you about what we’re doing.

Last month we gave the opportunity for all to try and test our products for a two day period at a time. This was well received and a total of over 200 thousand modules and trials were downloaded during this free event.

In view of last months response, we are pleased to announce our upcoming Free For All event, starting April 19th, where you are welcome to try any and all our products (except campaigns) for free and without limitation for one month. This unlimited access to all our suite of products, including our top fighter jets, such as the F-16C, F/A-18C and A-10C Warthog will help take your mind off things for a while, giving you the opportunity to try something new, and to own it for 50% or less than the normal price.*

We know that this is a small contribution to your personal lives but we hope that you will take full advantage of the offer and help the time fly by. In addition to this, we will be donating 10% of our net turnover generated during the event to Children First, a foundation that we have become very involved with for the past few years. This organisation supports the work of an amazing Dr Stefano Scaringella, a Capucin Priest and surgeon who has dedicated the past 40 years of his life to saving children and to promoting health in Madagascar, one of the poorest nations in the world. Please check this out, they too are hit badly and need all the help in the world: https://www.childrenfirst.fund

Thank you for your passion and support and stay safe.

Yours sincerely,

The Eagle Dynamics Team

On Steam
Fly the F/A-18C Hornet, F-16C Viper, A-10C Warthog, F-5E Tiger II, Persian Gulf Map and all DCS World War II products for free during a two-week period from April 19th to May 3rd.

Between the 13th and 27th of May, a 50% discount on all DCS products will be available.

*Exclusions and comments:

All campaigns, F-14B and AJS-37 Viggen will not take part. JF-17 Thunder will have a 15.00 USD discount.
Doesn't include the ED made campaigns but I think you can play mod campaigns or use the mission generator.
To answer the most obvious question they are playable with a mouse and keyboard or a controller, but a joystick is highly advised.

Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Apr 18, 2020

Det_no
Oct 24, 2003
I'm trying out Eador Imperium and the first few minutes of the tutorial are suddenly interrupted by a lengthy, text-based narration of the appearance of a "beetle-like demon made out of letters and numbers" that breaks the 4th wall and tells you that's quite enough, you should stop playing for your own good. Then a blue box crashes onto the floor and from it emerges a knight, a developer, who vanquishes the demon and warns you that his appearance is really common, he is called "Access Violation" and you should totally refund the game if it bothers you because the game really can crash from "everything from the smallest movement of the mouse to playing after five hours" and you only need to read the reviews to confirm. No hard feelings! But if you do want to risk it, then go right ahead and we'll play!

I couldn't even pay attention to the rest of the tutorial after that. That has to be the single most bizarre meta thing I've seen in a game in maybe years.

Alamoduh
Sep 12, 2011

DrManiac posted:

Sentinels of Freedom looks interesting, but how the gently caress does a super hero themed xcom-like game not ship with mod support?

It’s very fun so far, but I really want more customization options.

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Orv
May 4, 2011
That was a weirdly long discussion when all it boils down to is that for some people progression is the game and for some people it doesn't matter. Back when I was still on the yearly CoD train I had a friend who was done with that years installment once they reached level 50 (or whatever it was per game) and I had another friend who wasn't done until they reached prestige X. Meanwhile I was just down to play with either until I personally got bored of the gameplay or something cropped up.

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