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I've always thought Hoid was adjacent to the shattering and didn't hold his own shard, but has knowledge of all of it.
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Apr 11, 2020 20:50
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Yeah I don’t think Hoid and Frost have shards themselves but Hoid clearly understands how the shards and their investments work hence why he’s bouncing from world to world picking up powers.
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Apr 11, 2020 21:26
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Daric posted:Yeah I don’t think Hoid and Frost have shards themselves but Hoid clearly understands how the shards and their investments work hence why he’s bouncing from world to world picking up powers. Hoid definitely doesn't have a shard. He does have access to half a dozen (or more) different types of investment though. He may not have a shard, but he's got pieces of power from a lot of them. From the Lord Ruler and others, we know that combining powers can have a compounding effect. Hoid can do some absolutely ridiculous stuff, I'm sure.
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Apr 11, 2020 21:38
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ConfusedUs posted:Hoid definitely doesn't have a shard. He does have access to half a dozen (or more) different types of investment though. He may not have a shard, but he's got pieces of power from a lot of them. From the Lord Ruler and others, we know that combining powers can have a compounding effect. yeah, didn't sanderson say somewhere that Hoid's regeneration is at like, "if you cut off his head, he'd just have to wait a while for it to regrow" levels of power?
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Apr 11, 2020 22:51
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Here's my understanding of the origins of the cosmere, based on reading the sample chapters of Hoid's story ten years ago and general WoBs and such. God is dead! Hoid, Frost and at least 16 other beings killed them/it. Hoid and Frost were offered shards and refused. We don't know Hoid's current endgame besides collecting magic systems. We know he has a significant amount of Breaths, is an Allomancer, has a magic similar to Lightweaving from his home planet and just bonded a Spren, plus who knows what else, maybe Aether, and a little of the sand from White Sand. He's had plenty of time to create and implement his plans. Fezz fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Apr 12, 2020 |
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Apr 11, 2020 22:59
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Fezz posted:Here's my understanding of the origins of the cosmere, based on reading the sample chapters of Hoid's story ten years ago and general WoBs and such. He also has some degree of what I'll call Luck because he complains that he'll be in the right place at the right time, but that means he feels yanked around a lot. No idea if that's an intrinsic power he has, something he's picked up, has from the splitting of Adonalsium or what
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Apr 11, 2020 23:23
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eke out posted:yeah, didn't sanderson say somewhere that Hoid's regeneration is at like, "if you cut off his head, he'd just have to wait a while for it to regrow" levels of power? The original ending for the first protoversion of dragonsteel had hoid's decapitated corpse regrowing his head, and him being very confused because he expected the head to regrow the body instead.
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Apr 11, 2020 23:39
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Hoid is also the "bearer of the First Gem" and is known as topaz (at least to some) because of it, so that seems pretty significant too edit: Hoid also played a (I think unnamed?) role in The Emperor's Soul, since he wanted to get the Moon Scepter. Sanderson says that it's the Rosetta stone for Selish investiture, so if he got access to it (or at least got to read it) then presumably that knowledge itself is more power. Slanderer fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Apr 12, 2020 |
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Apr 12, 2020 00:22
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NikkolasKing posted:Also why did Vin avoid talking to Hoid in Hero of Ages? She sensed something bad might happen and ducked away and it's never clarified what she sensed. Fezz posted:I believe that was Ruin acting through her earring. DarkHorse posted:He also has some degree of what I'll call Luck because he complains that he'll be in the right place at the right time, but that means he feels yanked around a lot. No idea if that's an intrinsic power he has, something he's picked up, has from the splitting of Adonalsium or what
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Apr 12, 2020 02:48
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Leng posted:Nope, it was Kelsier (Secret History spoilers). Secret History is real good.
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Apr 12, 2020 02:54
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Leng posted:Nope, it was Kelsier (Secret History spoilers). I thought Feruchemy was one of the few things Hoid doesn't have access to, since as far as we know there is currently no way to gain it besides hemalurgy which would have consequences on him that Hoid can't allow.
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Apr 12, 2020 04:32
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I stand corrected, I was thinking of this WoB which later got clarified. He's been very cagey about whether Hoid has it or not.
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Apr 12, 2020 06:04
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M_Gargantua posted:I thought Feruchemy was one of the few things Hoid doesn't have access to, since as far as we know there is currently no way to gain it besides hemalurgy which would have consequences on him that Hoid can't allow. well I mean the terrismen had to have gotten it somehow to begin with.
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Apr 12, 2020 09:20
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Speaking of Hemalurgy, it seems to me a clear example of an intrinsically evil power in the Cosmere. Hemalurgy can be used to steal Allomantic or Feruchemical powers and give them to another person. However, a Hemalurgic spike can also be created by killing a normal person, one who is neither an Allomancer nor a Feruchemist. In that case, the spike instead steals the very power of Preservation existing within the soul of the people. (The power that, in fact, gives all people sentience.) Originally, we assumed that a koloss was a combination of two people into one. That was wrong. Koloss are not the melding of two people, but five, as evidenced by the four spikes needed to make them. Not five bodies, of course, but five souls. In the real world we could argue no tool is really evil. We can conceive of good uses for guns and nuclear weapons and other things. But fantasy is obviously different. Evil is often a literal, metaphysical force in fiction so obviously anything it produces is evil. Ruin is not exactly the Devil but the power clearly was a corrupting, malignant force. With nothing to balance it, of course Ruin or Hatred lead to evil. I can't see any justification for ever using Hemalurgy for good. Yes, some good things came out of it but even in the story the kandra just don't like to acknowledge their life came from some poor person being murdered. And the Koloss and Inquisitors are nightmares made manifest. Furthermore, what about how the spikes trap "souls?" I totally forgot about that until this reread. Does that mean people fused into Koloss or Inquisitors never went on to the spiritual realm in death? Was their essence destroyed and they now have no afterlife? Or are they freed when the Hemalurgic creation dies? Are the people used to make Marsh even now still trapped in him? It seems to me anything to do with souls is indefensibly evil. It's like how Hell is completely ethically wrong. Nobody deserves eternal torture as an infinite punishment for a finite crime is repugnant. As such, Hemalurgy is definitely wrong if it does something to the soul as it's more than just hurting or killing the ephemeral physical body, it's damaging that eternal aspect of a person.
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Apr 12, 2020 12:09
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NikkolasKing posted:Speaking of Hemalurgy, it seems to me a clear example of an intrinsically evil power in the Cosmere. Some of this comes up in Secret History. I recommend a reading of that. There's a scene where Kelsier is hanging out in the afterlife and there's a big battle where a bunch of koloss die. and what basically happens is that the people who comprised the koloss now get to go to the afterlife. One of them is an Inquisitor who worked with the koloss and when Kelsier tells him what's up he's upset that the evil empire turned him into a koloss. You should also watch the Good Place, as a lot of what you brought up is a big part of that series. I agree that the concept of Hell is incredible hosed up.
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Apr 12, 2020 14:27
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Surface Detail by Iain M Banks is a good sci-fi version of “hell is a hosed up idea” if you’re looking for one of those.
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Apr 12, 2020 14:30
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Ugly In The Morning posted:Surface Detail by Iain M Banks is a good sci-fi version of “hell is a hosed up idea” if you’re looking for one of those. Everything Iain Banks wrote was good, but this was especially good.
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Apr 12, 2020 21:52
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NikkolasKing posted:Speaking of Hemalurgy, it seems to me a clear example of an intrinsically evil power in the Cosmere. Isn't it hinted at that Harmony made changes to hemalurgy, so it works differently in the second trilogy onwards? As far as I know we haven't seen it surfacing in the Wax and Wayne era, with the exception of the tokens and coins that grant aluchemical/allomantic powers produced by the civilisation on the other side of the world which are almost certainly using hemalurgy in their manufacture
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Apr 13, 2020 04:50
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Harmony changed how snapping works, so that its much less violent with a lower threshold to trigger. He did change how the shardic power interacts with the spirit webs of people birthed on Scadriel so that nobody can be born a full allomancer or full feruchemist though. I however don't think he can change the underlying Trifecta of shardic powers.
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Apr 13, 2020 04:53
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Lobsterpillar posted:Isn't it hinted at that Harmony made changes to hemalurgy, so it works differently in the second trilogy onwards? As far as I know we haven't seen it surfacing in the Wax and Wayne era, with the exception of the tokens and coins that grant aluchemical/allomantic powers produced by the civilisation on the other side of the world which are almost certainly using hemalurgy in their manufacture Maybe. But in Bands of Mourning Wax's sister is revealed to have three hemalurgical spikes. Because once you have four that opens you up to being controlled by Harmony. There's a fairly important part of one of Wax's investigations where he finds a Terrisman who was killed for a hemalurgic spike as well.
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Apr 13, 2020 05:59
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He also changed koloss to be a race that breeds true rather than what happened during The Final Empire.
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Apr 13, 2020 07:01
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I'm willing to bet that the Excisors used to create the unsealed metalminds, including the bands of mourning involve hemalurgy. But so little is known about the mechanics of unsealed metalminds (particuarly how someone who is not a nicrosil ferring can tap into the stored investiture to begin with) that it's hard to speculate further
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Apr 13, 2020 07:17
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M_Gargantua posted:Harmony changed how snapping works, so that its much less violent with a lower threshold to trigger. He did change how the shardic power interacts with the spirit webs of people birthed on Scadriel so that nobody can be born a full allomancer or full feruchemist though. I however don't think he can change the underlying Trifecta of shardic powers. That was just the natural outcome of magical genetics, turns out killing every living feruchemist and strong allomancer means there aren't a lotta genes left.
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Apr 15, 2020 01:18
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No, Sazed deliberately changed it because compounding was too powerful, so you can't be born with more than one Allomantic power. But because of the way he changed the snap system Allomancers are more common than they were in the Final Empire.
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Apr 15, 2020 03:59
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Tunicate posted:That was just the natural outcome of magical genetics, turns out killing every living feruchemist and strong allomancer means there aren't a lotta genes left. M_Gargantua posted:No, Sazed deliberately changed it because compounding was too powerful, so you can't be born with more than one Allomantic power. But because of the way he changed the snap system Allomancers are more common than they were in the Final Empire. No, Tunicate is right. There are WoBs where Brandon states that a combination of the Lord Ruler trying to breed Feruchemy out of the Terris population (with some success, leading to extreme measures by the Keepers to breed it into their people), and all surviving Keepers being killed meant that only the latent genes for Feruchemy were left in the Terris people. And more interbreeding with the non-Terris meant that only Ferrings were born. And as you can see in Alloy of Law, the Terris are aware of that and are again doing a breeding program to bring out full Feruchemists.
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Apr 15, 2020 06:57
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Torrannor posted:No, Tunicate is right. There are WoBs where Brandon states that a combination of the Lord Ruler trying to breed Feruchemy out of the Terris population (with some success, leading to extreme measures by the Keepers to breed it into their people), and all surviving Keepers being killed meant that only the latent genes for Feruchemy were left in the Terris people. And more interbreeding with the non-Terris meant that only Ferrings were born. And as you can see in Alloy of Law, the Terris are aware of that and are again doing a breeding program to bring out full Feruchemists. That doesn't address Allomancers becoming less frequent, though. If I recall right Mistborn are basically nonexistent and Mistings are quite rare, with twinborn Ferrings/Mistings being exceptionally so
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Apr 15, 2020 22:40
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DarkHorse posted:That doesn't address Allomancers becoming less frequent, though. Mistings were already rare even in the final empire. I think because they're a manifestation of Preservation it would never be completely bred out of the populace while the shard is present. They probably just reached a new equilibrium.
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Apr 16, 2020 00:39
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DarkHorse posted:That doesn't address Allomancers becoming less frequent, though. the only remaining mistings were all skaa who had below-borderline allomantic potential - they needed an external force to be able to Snap. Spook was the only remaining mistborn, and he was also a reduced power mistborn rather than original strength There's also an issue where feruchemy and allomancy genes interfere with each other, which is why you get ferrings now.
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Apr 16, 2020 00:43
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Having thought a bit about it, I think I have to slightly readjust my Sanderson favorites. Oathbringer is still my favorite TSA novel but The Final Empire is now my favorite Mistborn novel. Kelsier and Vin are just the best and Elend is no substitute for me. I guess I would also say Vin's story feels the most compelling in this novel.
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Apr 19, 2020 07:20
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The best Mistborn book is Alloy of Law, sorry your opinion is wrong.
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Apr 19, 2020 15:44
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Daric posted:The best Mistborn book is Alloy of Law, sorry your opinion is wrong. Taken this as being 100% serious, I got the impression the Mistborn Trilogy was much more popular than Era 2 stuff generally speaking? I enjoy the new stuff but definitely not as much as the original trilogy. To each their own, I just never met anybody before now who preferred the new books.
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Apr 20, 2020 02:42
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NikkolasKing posted:Taken this as being 100% serious, I got the impression the Mistborn Trilogy was much more popular than Era 2 stuff generally speaking? The new series is markedly better written than the original trilogy
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Apr 20, 2020 02:48
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NikkolasKing posted:Taken this as being 100% serious, I got the impression the Mistborn Trilogy was much more popular than Era 2 stuff generally speaking? I like the era 2 stuff more than the original trilogy. The Well of Ascension and The Hero of Ages were very plodding for the most part and some of the characterization seemed off in places like they were shoehorned to make sure the plot hit certain beats. mewse posted:The new series is markedly better written than the original trilogy
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Apr 20, 2020 02:51
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Plus its fuckin Wild West fantasy, what's not to like. I was gonna say the market is lacking Industrial Revolution fantasy then realized, oh, no it isn't. There's tons. Just mostly in the YA or bodice ripper bend.
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Apr 20, 2020 03:28
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Arrath posted:Plus its fuckin Wild West fantasy, what's not to like. City of Stairs is in this category and it owns, so if you haven't read it, go fix that. The other two books in the trilogy are good, too, but not nearly as good as the first.
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Apr 20, 2020 03:49
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ConfusedUs posted:City of Stairs is in this category and it owns, so if you haven't read it, go fix that. Isn't the author a goon, too? I thought I saw something about that recently in another thread.
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Apr 20, 2020 05:11
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That series is extremely good, and I highly recommend it. I actually thought the third book was the best in the series. I got a little misty eyed at the end.
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Apr 20, 2020 05:47
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I'll third that recommendation, I listened to all three on audiobook a year or two ago.
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Apr 20, 2020 06:30
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Proteus Jones posted:I like the era 2 stuff more than the original trilogy. The Well of Ascension and The Hero of Ages were very plodding for the most part and some of the characterization seemed off in places like they were shoehorned to make sure the plot hit certain beats. Agreed. I like the actual plot of the original trilogy more but the pacing of book 2 was a goddamn train wreck. The structure and actual prose of the new trilogy is miles ahead and the mistborn gunfights rule.
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Apr 20, 2020 14:25
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My complaint with Era 2 is that because most of the characters are just Mistings they have much less interesting usages of their powers. It's just a lot of, "Make myself light and shotgun jump around in the air". Generally not a fan of guns-n-wizards in general. By the end of Bands of Mourning I was definitely excited for the next book, even the next trilogy, but I still think Final Empire is my favorite.
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