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Mx.
Dec 16, 2006

I'm a great fan! When I watch TV I'm always saying "That's political correctness gone mad!"
Why thankyew!


booty shorts are a gateway drug, people!!

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Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Inceltown posted:

Laughing at someone getting hosed over by their own hubris is probably the most human thing you can do.

I think a lot of the folks complaining about it want to make it important and obvious how you need to be "polite and reasonable" about the illness of someone in charge whereas when they poo poo on the poor and migrants, they should have free reign.

It's hypocrisy, a whole lot of it. Also I have never played any Final Fantasy game through to completion, and never 7 at all, is Barratt an okay character?

Inceltown
Aug 6, 2019

Josef bugman posted:

I think a lot of the folks complaining about it want to make it important and obvious how you need to be "polite and reasonable" about the illness of someone in charge whereas when they poo poo on the poor and migrants, they should have free reign.

It's hypocrisy, a whole lot of it. Also I have never played any Final Fantasy game through to completion, and never 7 at all, is Barratt an okay character?

Wait, we're talking about final fantasy here? poo poo.

Andrast
Apr 21, 2010


Josef bugman posted:

I think a lot of the folks complaining about it want to make it important and obvious how you need to be "polite and reasonable" about the illness of someone in charge whereas when they poo poo on the poor and migrants, they should have free reign.

It's hypocrisy, a whole lot of it. Also I have never played any Final Fantasy game through to completion, and never 7 at all, is Barratt an okay character?

Barrett is the best

IncredibleIgloo
Feb 17, 2011





Josef bugman posted:



It's hypocrisy, a whole lot of it. Also I have never played any Final Fantasy game through to completion, and never 7 at all, is Barratt an okay character?

That is kind of tough to answer, and perhaps open to debate. None of the characters in FF7 (or most of the games) are particularly nuanced or deep. The people who did the writing and development of the character probably did so without a whole lot of direct interaction with Black people, and likely their greatest exposure to Black people is through the lens of US media. That will certainly impact some of the decision making they had with the character. One could probably make the argument that some of the racists tropes implemented in some Japanese games is not done intentionally and is only a reflection of the source material, mostly US media.

That being said the character has good points to him, he has good and honorable intentions, he is not afraid to show emotion, and is invested deeply in a cause. Perhaps, unfortunately, this may be overshadowed by the depiction of the character perhaps branching into some territory that would be considered a trope, most specifically the Angry Black Man trope popularized in US media in the late 60s and 70s. This is a tough issue though, because that trope is centered around a Black person angry or upset at the government and oppression, and the character in the game is upset at a large mega corporation that has insidious machinations, so the characters natural reaction to this is similar to behavior of the trope.

nexus6
Sep 2, 2011

If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes
Boris & his family didn't follow their own advice about social distancing and got sick. That's even if he actually did get sick and this wasn't another distraction from what his government were/weren't doing (he's done stunts like this before, remember the zip line) or this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r799U_-jAnk.

So either he is a total idiot and can't take care or himself, or he is a manipulating shitheel who went for a sympathy vote while his country is falling apart around him. That's who people voted for.

These are also people who shot down previous plans to give NHS workers raises and will just clap for them instead.

Turpitude II
Nov 10, 2014

BeAgoodRobot posted:

I wish someone would have told me he was spit-balling BEFORE I SHOVED THIS LIGHT BULB UP MY rear end.

The bulb's shape allows it to be easily put into the butt, but taking it out is problematic.

Air Skwirl
May 13, 2007

Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.

nexus6 posted:


So either he is a total idiot and can't take care or himself, or he is a manipulating shitheel who went for a sympathy vote while his country is falling apart around him.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OawrlVoQqSs

nexus6
Sep 2, 2011

If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes

:hmmyes:

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

RareAcumen posted:

Possibly a troll because I don't use ResetEra and have no idea what it's like but if that's the case then the comments definitely count!

https://twitter.com/ReeraTakes/status/1253411323049725952

I haven't played the FF7 remake (and have no real intention to because I have very strong and nerd-rear end opinions about the fact they shouldn't have made it), but I'm gonna say that OP's probably got a very legitimate complaint going on there. Barrett's always been basically 'late 90s Japan's attempt to write a black guy from a 70s action franchise', I'm really not surprised to hear that they weren't able to excise that. Especially since it looked like the black guy they're basing him on to still be one that's several decades out of date.

FF7's remake and Doom Eternal are basically tag-teaming the role of 'big new pop culture thing you're not allowed to criticize' right now. It's kinda fascinating how you get two entirely different types of angry nerd depending on which one you speak out against.

IncredibleIgloo
Feb 17, 2011





I am unfamiliar with the Doom Eternal criticism, can you share more about that?

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund
Is it bad representation or representation that you can argue is bad? Though to be fair that whole thing is an argument in and of itself.

And is any representation at all better than none?

Josef bugman has a new favorite as of 10:46 on Apr 24, 2020

IncredibleIgloo
Feb 17, 2011





Josef bugman posted:

And is any representation at all better than none?

I feel like there is a lot of discussion to be had on this topic specifically, but I do think some scholars have hashed it out more thoroughly than I can. If you are interested in the depiction of Black people in film throughout history I heartily recommend "Framing Blackness: The African American Image in Film" by Ed Geurerro (Not the wrestler). A link to the amazon page for the work is listed below for convenience. It may be slightly dated now, but is still worth a read.

https://www.amazon.com/Framing-Blackness-African-American-Culture/dp/1566391261

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund
Thank you very much indeed!

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

IncredibleIgloo posted:

I am unfamiliar with the Doom Eternal criticism, can you share more about that?

Oh, it's not even that Doom Eternal is doing anything egregiously wrong or anything. It's just that the internet's in that state right now where if you have a problem with Doom Eternal then the response is a disproportionate 'how DARE YOU'. In kinda the same way as how for a decent stretch of last year you couldn't say anything negative about Avengers Endgame.

I just think it's really interesting how Doom's fans are really performatively Mad if you speak against their game, while the FF7 remake's fans are very performatively Not Mad if you do the same with theirs.

Andrast
Apr 21, 2010


Cleretic posted:

I haven't played the FF7 remake (and have no real intention to because I have very strong and nerd-rear end opinions about the fact they shouldn't have made it), but I'm gonna say that OP's probably got a very legitimate complaint going on there. Barrett's always been basically 'late 90s Japan's attempt to write a black guy from a 70s action franchise', I'm really not surprised to hear that they weren't able to excise that. Especially since it looked like the black guy they're basing him on to still be one that's several decades out of date.

FF7's remake and Doom Eternal are basically tag-teaming the role of 'big new pop culture thing you're not allowed to criticize' right now. It's kinda fascinating how you get two entirely different types of angry nerd depending on which one you speak out against.

There is in fact a shitton of criticism of both everywhere

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

IncredibleIgloo posted:

That being said the character has good points to him, he has good and honorable intentions, he is not afraid to show emotion, and is invested deeply in a cause. Perhaps, unfortunately, this may be overshadowed by the depiction of the character perhaps branching into some territory that would be considered a trope, most specifically the Angry Black Man trope popularized in US media in the late 60s and 70s. This is a tough issue though, because that trope is centered around a Black person angry or upset at the government and oppression, and the character in the game is upset at a large mega corporation that has insidious machinations, so the characters natural reaction to this is similar to behavior of the trope.

Don't forget that he's also a loving and devoted father to his kid, something that the Remake does a bit more with than the original. The upgraded graphics and art in the remake also does a lot to make him look less like a black stereotype physically.

Though I also gotta admit, and maybe this is just me being a complete moron, but how is "black people don't take government/corporate oppression sitting down and will in fact speak out angrily against it and do something about it" a stereotype, and even if it is, how is it a harmful one? And stereotype or not, black people do get an extra helping of the oppression compared to a lot of other people, so it just seems... realistic that they'd have more to be pissed about?

SiKboy
Oct 28, 2007

Oh no!😱

Cleretic posted:

Oh, it's not even that Doom Eternal is doing anything egregiously wrong or anything. It's just that the internet's in that state right now where if you have a problem with Doom Eternal then the response is a disproportionate 'how DARE YOU'. In kinda the same way as how for a decent stretch of last year you couldn't say anything negative about Avengers Endgame.

I just think it's really interesting how Doom's fans are really performatively Mad if you speak against their game, while the FF7 remake's fans are very performatively Not Mad if you do the same with theirs.

Eh, it goes both ways to an extent. The Doom eternal anti-fans* are equally quick to jump on any defence of the game (or positive mention of the game) as evidence that the person is melting down/blindly defending the game. Like if someone says something factually incorrect about the game, and someone else says "Actually there is a jump button, I have problems with the game but that isnt one of them" theres an immediate "U MAD FANBOY???" reaction. Forums full of contrarians under lock-down, its not massively surprising.

I'm fairly neutral on this one, because I havent played Doom Eternal yet, but we've all seen this with a million games/movies before. It'll calm down, forums consensus will settle (game good/game bad), then in 6 months it'll reverse (game actually bad, cant believe people bought into the hype/actually game is underrated gem, dont know why people were so down on it), then eventually it'll be "Doom eternal was a game some people liked a lot, had some good bits and some real problems.", with a few passionate defenders and a few passionate haters who bring up the same old arguments every time.

*Or whatever term you would use for people who go around looking for those who enjoyed the game to tell them that they are wrong, they actually didnt, they just think they did, and that they are stupid. I dont get it myself, we're in the middle of a global pandemic, just let people like things. Like I didnt enjoy the last of us, but I dont kramer my way into every discussion of the game to tell people that. Other people liked the thing I didnt, thats okay.

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012




Josef bugman posted:

I think a lot of the folks complaining about it want to make it important and obvious how you need to be "polite and reasonable" about the illness of someone in charge whereas when they poo poo on the poor and migrants, they should have free reign.

It's hypocrisy, a whole lot of it. Also I have never played any Final Fantasy game through to completion, and never 7 at all, is Barratt an okay character?



Barret Wallace is an enormous tank of a man that's supposedly standing somewhere at 6'4" to 6'6" but in reality looks more like 7' when in crowded areas. Along with being a man so built he'd fit into Street Fighter no problem and the first character who looks like he belongs in a different game he's also very passionate about his cause of saving the planet through direct action- basically being the head of a terrorist Cell named AVALANCHE that're doing their best to destroy Shinra reactors that're harvesting planet energy to keep the enormous city of Midgar running everyday.

It's very clear that it's having a negative effect on the environment: plants are dying and not growing at all, it's mutating monsters and making them more aggressive and powerful. And as to be expected by any megacorp with a full-scale monopoly, Shinra are relentlessly evil in all the ways you would expect from a video game and reality. Callous disregard for any possible casualties should their equipment fail, entire sectors of equipment left to fall into disrepair- monsters are building nests in the abandoned parts of their train tunnels. Barret's the one most focused on this mission of saving the planet by any means necessary and as someone angry at the failure by the people in charge to keep poo poo running, sometimes he's also angry at their use of propaganda to influence their image for the better while quietly loving up massively in other areas in the city.

Also I didn't mean the ResetEra comments were stupid, I meant the people in the twitter talking about them where.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

I have seen some of that in terms of popular culture. But one of the things I will note is that a game I have a load of fondness for hasn't seen it yet. Disco Elysium. People were saying "this is really good" and it's been 6 months or so since it came out and I've yet to see any real "worm is turning" on it.

Part of me does like the "bad thing = good now" argument, because at least it creates new avenues for folks to express how they feel about it.

Piss Meridian
Mar 25, 2020

by Pragmatica

Josef bugman posted:

I have seen some of that in terms of popular culture. But one of the things I will note is that a game I have a load of fondness for hasn't seen it yet. Disco Elysium. People were saying "this is really good" and it's been 6 months or so since it came out and I've yet to see any real "worm is turning" on it.

Part of me does like the "bad thing = good now" argument, because at least it creates new avenues for folks to express how they feel about it.

Have you ever considered not caring about what permanently online people with personality disorders think about things?

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Piss Meridian posted:

Have you ever considered not caring about what permanently online people with personality disorders think about things?

I mean we are posting on something awful.

Piss Meridian
Mar 25, 2020

by Pragmatica

Josef bugman posted:

I mean we are posting on something awful.

yes but I don't care

Inceltown
Aug 6, 2019

Piss Meridian posted:

Have you ever considered not caring about what permanently online people with personality disorders think about things?

I don't care about what you post if that is what you mean

Piss Meridian
Mar 25, 2020

by Pragmatica

Inceltown posted:

I don't care about what you post if that is what you mean

I'm glad someone got what I was saying

Stoatbringer
Sep 15, 2004

naw, you love it you little ho-bot :roboluv:

Turpitude II posted:

The bulb's shape allows it to be easily put into the butt, but taking it out is problematic.

IncredibleIgloo
Feb 17, 2011





PurpleXVI posted:

Don't forget that he's also a loving and devoted father to his kid, something that the Remake does a bit more with than the original. The upgraded graphics and art in the remake also does a lot to make him look less like a black stereotype physically.

Though I also gotta admit, and maybe this is just me being a complete moron, but how is "black people don't take government/corporate oppression sitting down and will in fact speak out angrily against it and do something about it" a stereotype, and even if it is, how is it a harmful one? And stereotype or not, black people do get an extra helping of the oppression compared to a lot of other people, so it just seems... realistic that they'd have more to be pissed about?

I concur that in this instance the stereotype or trope might not fit, and the concept of the trope may be shaky to start with, at least in today's society. From what I have read the heyday of the trope was about 10 years before I was born, so I don't have a whole lot of reference on how it felt/played out at the time. Part of the original trope was that the character was reduced to a caricature that is singularly focused or paranoid, and in the case of FF7 there seems to be enough about the character, such as the family you allude to, that fully fleshes out the character as opposed to being a single dimensional trope.

Goa Tse-tung
Feb 11, 2008

;3

Yams Fan

Josef bugman posted:

I have seen some of that in terms of popular culture. But one of the things I will note is that a game I have a load of fondness for hasn't seen it yet. Disco Elysium. People were saying "this is really good" and it's been 6 months or so since it came out and I've yet to see any real "worm is turning" on it.

Part of me does like the "bad thing = good now" argument, because at least it creates new avenues for folks to express how they feel about it.

imo DE has one big fault: the horrible thing that happens when you fail the dancing/singing check in the church/club

you are not given any chance to prevent it, and the game reacts as if you the player made a bad choice morally (like it does the rest of in the game when you would actually do)

Piss Meridian
Mar 25, 2020

by Pragmatica

Goa Tse-tung posted:

imo DE has one big fault: the horrible thing that happens when you fail the dancing/singing check in the church/club

you are not given any chance to prevent it, and the game reacts as if you the player made a bad choice morally (like it does the rest of in the game when you would actually do)

the victims of the horrible thing, whoever and whatever that was, had it coming

SiKboy
Oct 28, 2007

Oh no!😱

Josef bugman posted:

I have seen some of that in terms of popular culture. But one of the things I will note is that a game I have a load of fondness for hasn't seen it yet. Disco Elysium. People were saying "this is really good" and it's been 6 months or so since it came out and I've yet to see any real "worm is turning" on it.

Part of me does like the "bad thing = good now" argument, because at least it creates new avenues for folks to express how they feel about it.

It doesnt happen with everything, sure. But big hyped releases I would say it happens more often than not. People get swept up in the hype, then let down when the thing doesnt live up to their expectations/get fed up hearing about how good the thing is, then after the smoke clears re-evaluate the thing without that hype hanging over it. I'm not saying people cant change their minds, I'm just saying that the forum consensus on any big budget property changes often changes in a fairly predictable way.

I've not seen a huge amount of that with Disco Elysium (although I did see a few people getting cranky in a "Will you STOP bringing up Disco Elysium in EVERY drat THREAD" kind of way, as some of its fans got a little "I know you asked for first person shooter recommendations, but have you considered Disco Elysium" about it). But then while it is a critical (and fan) darling, it didnt have the same prerelease hype (or marketing budget) that your Dooms or your Avengers Endgames have.

hawowanlawow
Jul 27, 2009

all I know is that bullet with butterfly wings cover in the FF7 trailer is really really fuckin bad

there wolf
Jan 11, 2015

by Fluffdaddy

PurpleXVI posted:

Don't forget that he's also a loving and devoted father to his kid, something that the Remake does a bit more with than the original. The upgraded graphics and art in the remake also does a lot to make him look less like a black stereotype physically.

Though I also gotta admit, and maybe this is just me being a complete moron, but how is "black people don't take government/corporate oppression sitting down and will in fact speak out angrily against it and do something about it" a stereotype, and even if it is, how is it a harmful one? And stereotype or not, black people do get an extra helping of the oppression compared to a lot of other people, so it just seems... realistic that they'd have more to be pissed about?

The angry black man/woman trope is really about framing black people as inherently irrational and bullying, and even less than human as a result of that. It doesn't matter if their anger at the government is righteous (let's face it, it's because their anger is righteous and society needs to take that power away) because it's coming from a black man it's going to be paranoid, misdirected, and end in some overkill reaction way out of proportion for the actual offense.

Guilty
May 3, 2003
Ask me about how people having a bad reaction to MSG makes them racist, because I've never heard of gluten sensitivity

there wolf posted:

The angry black man/woman trope is really about framing black people as inherently irrational and bullying, and even less than human as a result of that. It doesn't matter if their anger at the government is righteous (let's face it, it's because their anger is righteous and society needs to take that power away) because it's coming from a black man it's going to be paranoid, misdirected, and end in some overkill reaction way out of proportion for the actual offense.

In addition to this, I just want to emphasize as there wolf did, the key word is 'irrational'. Black people can't be trusted to mete out a reasoned, calm response like white people can. See the recent lockdown protests. I guarantee you will never in your life see a protest of black people with so many automatic weapons without the police or military trying to actively gun them down. When white people have 'righteous anger' (put into quotes in this case because those guys are morons), they are having a 'rational' discussion. When black people have righteous anger they are unreasonable animals that cannot be trusted.

I framed that whole paragraph in a way that sounds like I am a white supremacist, but I just want to point out the hypocrisy and why the angry, irrational black person stereotype is actively harmful and lovely and should be called out.

edit: from what I remember from the original, which I played ages ago, the thing that got me the most about Barrett was that he was supposed to be this 3 dimensional character with several facets, he's a father, he's the leader of an eco-terrorist cell that's the good guys, and he's out for revenge. But most of his dialogue was never any exposition about any of the events going on. He just sort of waved his little cylinders in the angry black man trope and yelled for his daughter while all the white characters explained everything that was happening in the game.

Guilty has a new favorite as of 14:12 on Apr 24, 2020

Beartaco
Apr 10, 2007

by sebmojo

RareAcumen posted:

Also, I just need to check in with people because maybe I'm just too full of hate, actually, and should chill out but I was shocked to hear anyone actually stunned that people were wishing the worst for Boris Johnson's health when he got Corona.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih0JbSjpmBY&t=4952s

Am I in the wrong there? I'm not even in or from the UK I kinda have a general 'gently caress em' attitude about say, Elon Musk doing a twitter tantrum about not getting a lollipop for his new reusable bottle top ideas or any politician actively making life worse for people via gun laws or etc.

Gavin Free made a poo poo load of money off of Slow Mo Guys.

Push El Burrito
May 9, 2006

Soiled Meat
Barret is a cool dad with a gun arm and also they had Cloud say "poo poo" more than him in the remake.

Mr. Fall Down Terror
Jan 24, 2018

by Fluffdaddy

SiKboy posted:

I've not seen a huge amount of that with Disco Elysium (although I did see a few people getting cranky in a "Will you STOP bringing up Disco Elysium in EVERY drat THREAD" kind of way, as some of its fans got a little "I know you asked for first person shooter recommendations, but have you considered Disco Elysium" about it). But then while it is a critical (and fan) darling, it didnt have the same prerelease hype (or marketing budget) that your Dooms or your Avengers Endgames have.

there were some people who were upset that disco lets you play your character as a huge racist without immediately pausing the game to lecture the player about how racism is bad

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

luxury handset posted:

there were some people who were upset that disco lets you play your character as a huge racist without immediately pausing the game to lecture the player about how racism is bad

If anyone is heartless enough to play Disco Elysium as an rear end in a top hat/racist the game should set their PC on fire.

there wolf posted:

The angry black man/woman trope is really about framing black people as inherently irrational and bullying, and even less than human as a result of that. It doesn't matter if their anger at the government is righteous (let's face it, it's because their anger is righteous and society needs to take that power away) because it's coming from a black man it's going to be paranoid, misdirected, and end in some overkill reaction way out of proportion for the actual offense.

Yeah, which is, in my opinion, why it doesn't apply to Barrett. Most of what he does is a pretty rational reaction to the bullshit he's dealing with. And when it isn't perfect beep-boop logic, it's a situation where people would usually be understandably emotional.

chitoryu12
Apr 24, 2014

https://twitter.com/svenstoffels/status/1253009775169847307?s=21

https://twitter.com/svenstoffels/status/1253072745379901441?s=21

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!
The whole Barrett thing is mostly by people who haven’t played either game and are honestly the types who go so woke they end up segregationist.

Hearts in the right place but they tend to be rather patronizing. Because you know they are mostly white themselves

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Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos
https://twitter.com/AITA_reddit/status/1253407772009361409

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