|
PurpleXVI posted:If anything you'd figure that someone like Fabius Bile would figure out how to male female CSM's even if just to make the Imperium shriek in perfectly masculine terror at the thought of getting owned by some strong, scary women. As a matter of fact, that did turn up in one of the books. But not actual female CSMs, just almost as good. For fun, what's the last female Adeptus Mechanicus or Genestealer Cult character who made it to the tabletop? Or Daemon that isn't Slaanesh? As a matter of fact, one of my favorite minor characters from the Horus Heresy books before I stopped reading 40k books was a Tech-Priestess who was crucial to the salvation of Calth during the Heresy, a grieving widow who made an Ultramarine captain realize that even the magi of the AdMech are in some ways more human than any Marine. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Apr 26, 2020 |
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 12:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 12:30 |
|
|
Cythereal posted:As a matter of fact, that did turn up in one of the books. But not actual female CSMs, just almost as good. Not sure for AM (though there are ones in the fiction), but Genestealer Cult had a push in the last year with a female leader character and model. Not sure if their units have female figures or not at this point. They've also been showcasing a new female inquisitor model for the latest story push, who is decidedly lacking in boobplate or other female-specific impractical armor choices (still has giant rear end shoulder pads and no helmet though). For non-Slaanesh daemons, there's Valkia the Bloody, though she'd technically be a Daemon Princess. Also not daemons, but the Warcry warbands for AoS have featured quite a few non-sexified chaos cultists. Overall, AoS is a lot further along than 40k in regards to female models and characters, though they have the advantage of not having to wrestle with years of setting inertia and as many grogs who have been playing for 30 years. Not that I disagree that GW's lines still have work to do, but they've been improving.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 16:17
|
|
|
Certainly, they've been getting better (also, Valkia's not in 40k), but that's a long way from being good, and I consider the Sisters in particular to be... unfortunate.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 16:57
|
|
|
PurpleXVI posted:If anything you'd figure that someone like Fabius Bile would figure out how to male female CSM's even if just to make the Imperium shriek in perfectly masculine terror at the thought of getting owned by some strong, scary women. I mean, I can buy the whole "Space Marines have to be men because the geneseed came from the God-Emperor", but geneseeds frequently mutate, so it's possible that a geneseed could mutate to the point where it could only be used by women (or it turns the male Neophytes into female Space Marines, because of how powerful they are in remodelling the human body).
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 17:19
|
|
|
Ithle01 posted:I think the larger issue is that at some point 40k become a setting that people started taking seriously instead of the satire that's about fascist space catholics. Trying to treat 40k like it's anything other than total dumb nonsense was the real problem, not the dumb space nuns.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 17:21
|
|
|
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2e: Plundered Vaults The Great Revacholian Cocaine Skull So our heroes are walking directly into a crazy murder mystery rather than a Chaos Cult, despite assuming there's obviously a cult or demon or something because gently caress man, flaming screaming skull. On arriving in town, Henri-Phillipe realizes they have a knight. Henri-Phillipe emigrated partly to get away from loving Bretonnian Knights. For all his furious dumbassery, Gilbert is polite enough to know he's in the Empire and so any Bretonnian peasant like Henri-Phllipe cannot in fact be rounded up to be taken back to the fief they ran away from. This is something of a relief to the mayor, who realizes that instead of a crazy Errant trying to abduct him this is instead a perfect opportunity to get some well armed individuals to handle the flaming screaming skull problem. His offer is beyond generous: 750 gold crowns, minus 100 per day they have to halt the harvest. It's probably going to take several days to solve this mystery, but drat! That's a lot of money. But this problem has been seemingly unsolveable and if it cancels the wine harvest it's going to cost him well over 5000 in pure profit. The grapes have to be brought in at the right time as they ripen or the wine won't be nearly as good and could ruin the reputation of the local vinters. He's willing to pay a lot to properly motivate some able looking individuals like our heroes. Curiously, for once there is no trick. He really will pay exactly what you're owed if you solve the adventure without implicating him, and do it happily. Gilbert tells the rest of this party this is deadly serious. Surprisingly, Vendrick agrees; the plants really are that delicate and good wine will take this coming off right. Gilbert is crestfallen to learn they make white wines only here, but Vendrick points out that's just a function of the kinds of grapes that grow best in these lands. Not some inherent sign of Imperial deficiency. Still, as soon as she hears the price tag Elena is already shaking the mayor's hand and promising his wine will be protected. As most adventurers would, moments before they start suspecting this is some kind of trick. That's a lot of juice, after all. You also get the option of negotiating for a percentage of the profits, but this delays your pay considerably. You do make more in the end, but it's not worth it. Take the lump sum. Who knows where your PCs will be in a couple years once the wine matures and is sold? The town's seen the skulls a few times. The first one to see them was a little boy named Seel Baldurich, about a month ago. He lied about where he saw them because he was too far from the town (something heroes making an Int test can guess, which ours do since one of the 5 making Int-10 is pretty likely) and would have gotten in trouble for putting himself in danger. He also wasn't really believed, because a little kid with no witnesses making up a fanciful story about flaming screaming magical skulls? They were spotted next by the girlfriend of the local militia commander. By the time she got some militiamen and her boyfriend, they were gone. Finally, two workers both saw them a few days ago, which is what got Henri-Phillipe taking it seriously. Two respectable types who had witnesses. And this morning, the Skulls actually attacked someone for the first time, which has forced the harvest to pause for now. Erieta Surhardt is sleeping off the after-effects of some serious blood loss after the skulls attacked her and she only narrowly made it back into town. Karl hears that and immediately goes to offer his medical help. Normally you have to convince her parents you're a real doctor or they're afraid you're a quack just out for money, but Karl's wearing Shallyan robes and carrying a holy symbol. A successful Heal test later, he's helped Erieta further out of danger and she wakes up half an hour later, able to tell him she saw a 'flaming face with red eyes' that bit her twice. Three other workers carried her home, and they mention seeing the skull fly off after the attack, back into the forest. All sightings when followed up on have the skulls flying off in similar directions. It's the first of several hints about ways to find where they're coming from. At the same time, Gilbert is getting into trouble while questioning the girlfriend of the local militia leader. Isolde is dating Parzival the Sergeant because he's of noble blood (and he is 6' 2", handsome, and genuinely trying to be a knight, so she's pretty happy with it). Parzival is kind of jealous and not happy about an 'actual knight' talking to his girlfriend. He gets jealous and challenges any seemingly dashing or attractive PC questioning Isolde to a fist fight. Parzival is really insecure because he's still 'just' a squire, because his dad has crazy ideas that sending him 'adventuring' for a few years will 'make a man of him' before letting him join a knightly order. He's set himself up as the militia commander here as a technicality, and he's really excited about the skulls but ashamed he's failed to do anything about them. He'll actually whole-heartedly help the PCs in their plans to capture or destroy the things as long as he gets to take a visible part that might bring him and the militia a little glory. I've certainly seen more annoying NPCs who are way less helpful. He and Gilbert have an evenly matched fist-fight (he's about as good of a warrior) and Gilbert yields gracefully with relatively minimal injury, not wanting to interfere with another young knight's reputation or his affairs of the heart. Isolde is delighted with Parvizal's bravery, Parzival is pleased with himself and more disposed to help, and Gilbert's made some friends in the village. They also get Isolde's testimony, mentioning the skull seemed like a badger skull or something (it's a Skaven skull). They now have a bunch of options. Searching the forests using Vendrick and Elena's tracking skills (though Follow Trail doesn't work because the skulls fly), trying to follow a skull after a sighting (which is made much easier by having two light warhorses), or trying to trap and capture a skull. The latter plan will require some way to force the skull into combat, and then something like an...entangling...weapon-Elena is on this poo poo. Elena is going to bullwhip a skull. A flaming screaming skull after it's spotted and flushed out by the militia and her friends. The Set Trap skill would also work, but Vendrick isn't in Hunter yet. If you discover this, the local village invalid also has a piece of warpstone as a 'lucky charm' and the Skulls will approach him and cuddle like a pet cat. So if you discover that fact that's an easy way to catch them. But the team doesn't realize this, so operation 'piss off a magical skull and then tie it up after bullwhipping it out of the sky then follow it' is a go. Ulrike is not good at coming up with operation names. If they had a mage, the mage could try to jack control of the skull and figure out how it's programmed and just tell it to 'go home' using Channeling, too. You really do get a lot of routes to find the skull cave. It takes them a day or two to actually corner one of the little buggers, and they don't get the skull until the second try, but soon they have a flaming, screaming skull with dull red eyes (meaning it's in passive mode and will just try to go home) on a lead. Things normally escalate over the days, with the skulls beginning to attack people and leaving grafitti saying to turn over Mssr. Rocheteau, until they eventually attack the village. If you get them by day 2 or so they're still way more scooby doo. The escalation also makes catching them easier, since they start attacking on-duty militiamen or meddling adventurers around day 4. Upon reaching the evil cave and letting the skull go to prevent it alerting the residents, they watch outside for a bit. While they do surveillance, they discover someone has been quietly setting up dry wood to smoke out the cave; a sign of Otto and his companions, the other wrinkle in this adventure. They're also spotted by Otto's team, not having realized they needed to hide from the cave AND a Light Mage and his buddies. They spot two men living in the cave, one of them very unkempt and accompanied by skulls, one of them very bored (this is Dieter's bodyguard/manservant, Kurt). Just rushing in is not a good idea; this will lead to facing a decently experienced mercenary, a Master Bright Wizard, and a swarm of angry magic skulls. Dieter is also a little hard to take alive, but that's what they have Elena for. Taking Dieter alive is important for the 'good' ending, though if the heroes are forced to kill the man they still get paid and still save Pritzstock. Dieter can only control up to 4 skulls at once, but 4 extra WS 41% enemies are not welcome when you're low level PCs fighting a Mag 3 Fire Wizard with Fireball and Firey Blast in a magic soaked cave that's giving him +1 to casting checks per die. Dieter, Kurt, and their skull support could easily wipe this party, or at least cause some casualties. So what to do? Well, Dieter follows pretty clear patterns of behavior and goes for a walk (with one pet skull) pretty often. Also, that greenwood is already next to the cave and can be used to smoke the inhabitants out. Kurt is also bored and isn't that loyal; he doesn't get paid enough to die for this lunatic. If he's jumped while on a walk or out hunting, he'll desert Dieter and also tell the PCs a lot about what's going on from his old boss's rants if they Charm him or promise to let him go. In general it's a good idea to stake the cave out and start noticing patterns in skull deployment and when the men emerge. The complication to this is Otto and his band, who are doing the same thing. When the heroes are getting ready to make their move, Elena warns there's someone else coming. It's the Light Mage, his Giant Slayer buddy (now there's an unpleasant possible fight), and their three hired goon 'companions'. Fighting Otto and his band is a failure state; they're a tough fight, though potentially doable if you're early 2nd tiers as the adventure recommends. As our heroes are taking care of this early, and don't want to kill a bunch of people unnecessarily (they do have a Shallyan) they just try to explain they're trying to stop the crazy flaming screaming skulls that Seel saw. On hearing they're looking for his nephew's monster sightings, Otto calms down some. The Slayer still wants to get into a fight; it's been two weeks and nothing's tried to kill him. The dangerously bored Slayer Gregor is the main fly in the ointment of this social encounter. Ulrike suggests now that they have two parties, they just smoke the cave and try to capture the two men. With a little talking, Gregor the Slayer agrees, but won't allow the smoking plan since he wants the drat skulls to put up a fight. They shrug and let him take point. The upcoming fight is a lot less brutal with five other allies on their side. Ten characters vs. the Bright Wizard, 4 skulls, and a mercenary who surrenders almost immediately on realizing how outnumbered he is. During the course of it, the on-point Slayer does take a Fireball spell for 17 Wounds, criticaling him instantly. He spends the brief, violent fight rolling on the ground in pain from getting a fireball to the junk. Good plans, Gregor. Good plans. Soon enough, though, they've got Dieter Snared and then punched in the face by Elena. Her whip and Strike to Stun are going to be her consistent gimmick and they're always going to be helpful. With him down, the skulls stop attacking. Kurt surrenders. The dwarf bemoans that the 'mighty dark wizard' didn't 'hit him a little harder, might wizard is a mighty doom' as Karl puts the complaining dwarf back together. Questioning Kurt reveals that the wizard thinks Mssr. Rocheteau killed his brother. The team decides to go into town and ask a few more questions, especially knowing the name 'Stefan'. They learn from Elisabet the mayor's wife that she had a friend (a close friend) named Stefan... Hmm. Then they bring Dieter to Henri-Phillipe and the Bretonnian flips the gently caress out. Remember, he doesn't know Dieter is a twin. He thinks Stefan has come back to haunt him, bringing flaming screaming skulls. His extremely suspicious behavior gets them to go downstairs and check his basement, finding the much more recent brickwork in the wine cellar. After breaking it down, they find the skeleton and immediately arrest Henri-Phillipe as well as Dieter. Both men are screaming their hatred for one another, Elisabet is realizing her husband murdered her lover Stefan and slapping him in the face, everything is crazy, and our heroes are wondering if they get paid. Henri-Phillipe offers a bribe, but justice must be done, says Ulrike. Since he's no longer mayor (and will be sent to Altdorf for trial, and eventually hung for murder) Elisabet owns his property now. She pays the heroes the full 750 for bringing her lover's murderer to justice. As an extra aside, she's a competent administrator like her husband and Pritzstock does just fine under her, and she remains a contact the players can ask for help if they're back this way again. Similar if they don't reveal Henri-Phillipe's crimes. Whatever the outcome, mostly, the PCs come out ahead. Otto visits his nephew, then heads off to find something to kill his dwarf buddy, and the heroes set off with fat purses and unable to believe their good luck. However, after a shopping trip in Carroburg with their giant pile of money, they run into a dying man on the side of the road, ambushed by beastmen. He begs them to bring his signet ring to his father, and a terrible storm is coming up anyway. They'll need shelter in the nearby Schloss Vonreuter and they'll naturally reveal a poor man's fate to his grieving family. As lightning cracks in the background, they have no idea they've just entered The World of Survival Horror. I genuinely like Grapes of Wrath and think it's one of the strongest scenarios in Plundered Vaults. It's got lots of freedom in how the players solve it, and they aren't punished for making choices about who to turn in, what to discover, etc. There's a big payout at the end (maybe even a little too big, depending on where you are in your campaign) and it can be handled with very minimal combat if you're clever. Much of the action in how they actually put things together and collect evidence is very player driven, as is how they deal with Dieter and Kurt, with lots of payoff for being careful and observing things. There's lots of room to make both good and bad decisions that feel fair. And c'mon, putting Scooby Doo and Cask of Amontillado together is fun! Otto and his band are maybe overstuffing the adventure a little, but they're there to make sure things aren't too easy the moment you find the cave and to add an extra gameplay wrinkle. Next up is the other scenario I quite like, Carrion Call, where they get stuck in a gothic horror survival adventure and possibly get a new friend! Next Time: The Call of Schloss Vonreuter
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 17:23
|
|
|
Oh, adding in: The sooner you solve things, the better it goes for Dieter if he lives. If you solved things quickly, he hasn't actually committed any murders and just ends up back at his Order for treatment for his cocaine skull exposure. Also, if you find the warpstone yourself and take it along as jewels or something, it doesn't mutate the PCs; instead you get tracked by Skaven trying to steal it, opening up future plot hooks. Which is nice.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 18:59
|
|
|
Drakyn posted:If nothing else, making the fascist space catholics more egalitarian and appealing seems to be solving one problem (the product is misogynistic, both obliviously and willfully) at the expense of making the fascist space catholics more relatable and empathetic protagonists, which is ALSO a problem (the product says 'the catholic space fascists are bad guys don't root for them' but virtually every story is about some group of them and their arch-enemies are all portrayed as worse). The product doesn't actually tell you not to root for them because, it just assumed that it didn't have to. Or at least that people understood the empire is really bad and writes their own propaganda. Turns out, big mistake.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 19:48
|
|
|
And, wow, an adventure where there's no one explicitly doomed to die/suffer just because "gently caress you, this is GRIMDARK."
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 19:52
|
|
|
Ithle01 posted:The product doesn't actually tell you not to root for them because, it just assumed that it didn't have to. Or at least that people understood the empire is really bad and writes their own propaganda. Turns out, big mistake.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 19:58
|
|
|
Terrible Opinions posted:I don't think that is fair to the audience. The source material had especially in the mid 2010s explicitly moved to siding with the imperium. Yeah, sorry that makes sense, I'm still adjusting to the fact that fascism is basically normalized now and every now and again I get some whiplash from that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 19:59
|
|
|
Ithle01 posted:Yeah, sorry that makes sense, I'm still adjusting to the fact that fascism is basically normalized now and every now and again I get some whiplash from that. That's the biggest reason why I've stopped spending money on 40k. I still follow it on the internet some, but I grew disillusioned hard with supporting fantasy and sci-fi fascism four or five years ago. The setting's treatment and portrayal of women and minorities is another reason why I dislike it now, but the fascism bit is the big thing. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Apr 26, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 20:09
|
|
|
PurpleXVI posted:And, wow, an adventure where there's no one explicitly doomed to die/suffer just because "gently caress you, this is GRIMDARK." It's interesting because Grapes of Wrath is very much the sort of adventure you're told to expect in the core book. Caution, investigation, not pissing people off around town, making friends and putting together a plan will get you through it pretty easily and with significant rewards. There's no gently caress you mandatory battles, even if you do end up in a fight it might be doable if you did some stuff to even the odds or watched the skulls to figure out how they work, and as long as you stop Dieter things turn out okay for Pritzstock and you get paid. The next adventure also shockingly lacks any 'this sympathetic or victimized character just dies without any input from the PCs because gently caress you that's why' despite being a survival horror gothic adventure. Though because I like stuff like Suspira and Clock Tower and Resident Evil, I can't help but see it as one of those wild Italian horror stories. It's got the right elements. Probably part of why I like it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 20:29
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:That's the biggest reason why I've stopped spending money on 40k. I still follow it on the internet some, but I grew disillusioned hard with supporting fantasy and sci-fi fascism four or five years ago. The setting's treatment and portrayal is another reason why I dislike it now, but the fascism bit is the big thing. I refused to run it last time my group asked for a Dark Heresy for basically the reason that I'm mostly sick of players not really getting the whole concept of fiction. So we just ran a different dystopian sci-fi game, but they insisted we use the system. Hence, why I have opinions about 40k's firearms rules versus fantasy roleplay's combat rules. Fantasy roleplay certainly has its issues with the way dodge and multi-attacks can break the combat system a bit, but that's nothing compared to the issues with the 40k setting's combat.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 20:30
|
|
|
Once it gets its first big batch of errata, I would love to see the new Wrath and Glory here. (I am not a great writer so that's why I would not do it myself.)
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 20:43
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:
[/quote] I never really got into 40K at all and admitted don't know that much about it. That said, from what I understand, it's not that the Imperium are "the good guys" exactly so much as that every other major faction or power group is measurably, horrifyingly worse. Like, say there was a situation with the Empire from Star Wars, the Reavers from Firefly/Serenity and the Cylons from Battlestar Galactica were in conflict (and relatively equally matched). The Empire is almost cartoonishly evil with Palpatine at their head. However, the Cylons want to destroy all sentient organic life and the Reavers want to rape, kill and eat organic-seeming sentient life (and not necessarily in that order). So, if you have to choose one of these factions to join/support and you're not either a sentient machine or a rape-murder-cannibal, you're kind of stuck supporting the Empire.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 21:55
|
|
|
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2e: Plundered Vaults Welcome to Schloss Vonreuter First, our heroes have upgraded significantly. Their wineloot and the fact that their two main melee fighters came fairly well equipped anyway have given them room to really perk up their gear. It cost 200 of their crowns, but Ulrike is now in proper plate like a White Wolf, sans her helmet. Yes, no helmet puts her in terrible danger sometimes, but it's one of the defining features of her order. She also adds on a proper Fur Mantle from Tome of Salvation, so she's at least AV1 on the head. This means she now has a cool white cape with a wolf head. Gilbert replaces his Mail Shirt with a Sleeved Mail Shirt for 70, then buys the rest of his plate for 200. So yeah, the wine-loot has put their two fighters in plate. Already. That's a big boost and will make mandatory combats much easier. This is one of the reasons I say Grapes of Wrath maybe over-pays. The party's two major fighters have now completed one of their most important long-term money sinks and bits of power progression (Ulrike could take a Chaos Warrior one on one now, as could Gilbert), and they're only half-way through their first careers. Vendrick already has the best overall ranged weapon in the game and insists on being 'light', so they just get his leather reinforced for 65. 150 upgrades Elena's armor to Medium, and Karl insists on giving most of his share to the poor rather than upgrading his gear, costing the team another 75 as he makes the (probably good) argument that giving a tithe to the temples/charity will keep the Gods watching over them properly. They end this shopping spree in Carroburg with 40 crowns, a fairly clean conscience, the fervent thanks of a local Shallyan orphanage, and a team easily at the next tier of gear. Elena also picked up a fantastic hat in all of that. Someone on the team has to. For EXP, they 'only' got about 200 for the last adventure, so Karl gets Fel and WP, Elena gets WS and WP, Gilbert gets WS and WP, Ulrike buys Agi and Str, and Vendrick grabs his two Wounds. Then, on the road, they find a badly wounded young man dying in a ditch, supposedly stabbed a bunch by Beastmen. Vendrick's Follow Trail shows the tracks of Beastmen going into the woods, but vanishing shortly inside. This is because they're fake; if the players realize this is a trap, there is absolutely nothing that railroads them into this adventure. They can just walk away and avoid the mess that's to come in Schloss Vonreuter. This is a great touch! There's information to make you suspicious if your characters are on guard, and the adventure is confident enough in this trick to actually give you the means to see through it and not walk into it. The adventure's fun if you do, and most PCs probably will, but having the self-confidence not to have a But Thou Must railroad on this is a cool first move. Karl tries to help the dying man, but all his Heal does is let him ease the pain a little; the man's gut-shot and has been dying for some time. He tells them he's Gustav Vonreuter, that he was returning to his family home when he was jumped. He asks the heroes to bring word to his mother and father of what happened to him. Karl assures him they will, even as Vendrick says these are some of the stealthiest beastmen he's ever seen and warns the others to beware of bandits. They look out for an ambush, but Gustav really does seem to be dying, and nobody jumps them, so they chalk it up to Vendrick being a little over-eager. Gustav is 'real' in that his body is a necromantic construct used as a lure by his evil necromancer father, Ondurin Vonretuer. Gustav's spirit is very real; his enslaved ghost is being forced to help with this plan, whereby Ondurin lures travelers and adventurers into his enormous and crazy maze-castle so he can kill them and use them for his experiments. Gustav tried to tell the Hunters about his dad's crazy 'I've discovered I can change the flesh in amazing ways after it's dead and revive it!' experiments, so Ondurin killed him and enslaved his ghost. Then decided he'd lock his two daughters and remaining son up in his castle and not let them get ideas like Gustav did. Wilhelmina, the elder, is perfectly happy to be locked up and learning necromancy, though she'll take the players as a way out to get out there and be an evil cutthroat or swindler instead (she's the Evil route). His son Sothelin is obsessed with trying to be a 'cool' black knight. His other daughter Anya, though, is too strong willed to buckle under and refuses to learn her necromancy. She dreams of exploring the Empire, maybe being a heroine or adventurer one day. Helping her out of the crazy death castle is naturally the Good route in the adventure. Ondurin keeps trying to dominate and bully her, but he's been unable to break her spirit. He's also completely broken his wife. Ondurin is a lovely, lovely person even beyond the necromancy, but he's about to have a bad time when he fucks with the wrong Adventurers (and when Gustav's ghost manages to break free just enough to warn them and help them out, out of guilt for getting them in trouble in the first place). Our heroes, like last time, don't know any of this. They come to Schloss Vonreuter to try to complete Gustav's last wish. Sanne Vonreuter, Ondurin's abused wife, plays her part in the deception to the hilt, wailing over the death of her son. Ondurin is able to pretend to be grieving, but to hide his coldness behind the mask of Imperial masculinity, pretending he's 'being strong' for his wife. Sothelin isn't there (he'll show up later, if at all), but his three daughters (Well, his two daughters and the necromantic construct he made for Wilhelmina to 'reward' her for being 'the good one', but the heroes don't know that) struggle a bit more in playing their parts, which he excuses as 'they felt he was lost as soon as he became an adventurer'. The team is invited to a fine supper with a nice red wine (Gilbert is relieved), and asked all about themselves, their adventures, etc. Anya will ask all about the Empire outside and be very eager to hear anything about travel and cities. Wilhelmina wants to hear about impressive things they've killed, etc. They haven't really killed anything that impressive (these adventures are way more combat light), but Karl is able to tell Anya all about traveling the Empire, and even reveals he's been to Kislev and Praag before. Which is news to the others; when did the young Shallyan do that? The dinner is also used to show the PCs Ondurin is an abusive bastard. He'll answer questions for Sanne, talk over her, belittle her, and after years of this treatment she just takes it. He encourages Wilhelmina to torment Anya, and always takes Mina's side and tells her he loves her and has only sharp words for Anya. Ulrike finally finds a bit of what she's missing as an Ulrican and just tells the old man to shut his mouth for once and let the women speak. He tries to ignore her, she doesn't go for it, and eventually, dinner ends over the confrontation. Sanne insists the team stay the night; it's dark out, and even if they had a 'bit of an argument' they're more than welcome to stay. The family servant leads the team to their room, and as soon as they're inside, locks them in. It's interesting that Ondurin is played as earnestly and pretty realistically abusive and domineering. It doesn't really feel cheap; it's not something that's just thrown in to make things grittier, it's a core part of his character. He's a lunatic necromancer because of the same kind of controlling, domineering behavior that makes him an abusive husband and father. The two come from the same place. This is about when they realize things have gone bad. Thankfully, Ondurin's plan to lock them up left them their gear. If you go to bed without realizing you're locked in, Gustav's ghost will wake the team and warn them his dad is going to murder them and use them for necromancy. If you do as these chaps do and break down the loving door with a battle axe, he appears as soon as you do that to do the same. Gustav apologizes for dragging them into this, but begs the heroes to stop his father and his mad experiments. Ulrike is pretty happy to have good reason to punch the abusive old bastard in the face and happily agrees. The problem: A: Schloss Vonreuter is surrounded by more angry zombie dobermans than the Spencer Mansion and they won't be able to escape unless they find a passage out a back way or kill Ondurin. B: Much like the Spencer Mansion, Schloss Vonreuter is built as a lunatic maze castle, probably with weird crest based keys. They need someone who knows their way around to get out. PCs can wander blindly until they run into the insane firebug black sheep son locked in the attic (who will just try to burn the building down and maybe get them killed), they can go see Wilhelmina or Anya, or they can try to make a break for it. The latter runs into a fight with zombie dogs in the woods outside that is designed to warn you: There are a shitload of them, you need to stop Ondurin or find another way out. That bit of railroading bothers me a lot less when you could have avoided the whole thing. It's there to make you engage with the adventure now that you're in it; I don't mind an evil survival horror mansion locking you in once you're having the adventure. Our heroes being sympathetic, they're going to Anya for help. If you go to Wilhelmina, she asks you to kill Anya for her; her upbringing has taught her that killing people you don't like is normal. If you do, she really will lead the party out, but you get dinged sanity for being a cold-blooded murdering bastard. Elena, the little girl, will offer to lead the party out for fun alone. If they touch her hand or something, they realize she's ice cold and undead. If you walk into Elena's trap, she'll lead you to the labs and then let every monster out to watch them kill you (you can still escape this). Anya is the main 'intended' route for escaping. When they get to Anya's room, she's surprised and glad to see they're alive. She has never been able to stop her father from murdering their guests, no matter how hard she tried. She wants out of here; she's afraid her father will kill her like Gustav since he can't seem to beat her down. She offers to guide the heroes if they'll take her with them, and she'll do all she can to help them defeat her father. Anya can join the party temporarily for the adventure here, or permanently if the party wants her. Our party does, for the same reasons as Katarine. She has interesting stats; she's terrible at combat and physically weak (from a lifetime of being raised by an abusive father), but she has the will that her dad couldn't break and she's a goddamn genius. Base 44 Int (39+Savvy), Base 40 WP, and Base 39 Fel. She starts as a Noble, a general social class. From there, she's got a lot of potential in various routes as a courtier (social powerhouse), converting into a mage for the team (she's got amazing stats for it), or even becoming a Pistolier since she isn't terrible with ranged weapons like melee. That will have to wait until they get her out, though, and she can only lead them straight to Ondurin to confront him. Wilhelmina would have led them out a 'safer' way...until they got jumped by a guardian beast she didn't know about. Ondurin is actually a much easier fight, because he's an unsupported warhammer wizard and you know how those go as bosses. I like the situation with Anya because she has actual agency. For one, she really is smart, strong-willed, and was able to resist her father for ages. The fact that she's completely available to become a party member NPC or fill in for a dead PC or a new player is also nice. She's not doomed; you're totally able to get her out of the castle alive, and you're even intended to. On the evil route, Wilhelmina will do the same, but she only sticks around if the PCs are genuinely an evil group of cut-throats and bastards. Otherwise she steals what she can and runs off. She's also actually willing to confront her evil father. She has no combat training, etc, so she had no way to stop him herself but as soon as the PCs are around, she'll join them in fighting him as best she can. With Anya in tow, the team sets out with their guide, a single lantern lighting their way as they go to confront the evil castle necromancer. Next Time: OH NO MY UNSUPPORTED WARHAMMER WIZARD FLESH
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 22:08
|
|
|
Everyone posted:I never really got into 40K at all and admitted don't know that much about it. That said, from what I understand, it's not that the Imperium are "the good guys" exactly so much as that every other major faction or power group is measurably, horrifyingly worse.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 22:18
|
|
|
Everyone posted:I never really got into 40K at all and admitted don't know that much about it. That said, from what I understand, it's not that the Imperium are "the good guys" exactly so much as that every other major faction or power group is measurably, horrifyingly worse. There are better groups of people than the Imperium, namely The Tau who are Space Communists with a Star Fleet bent who exist separate from the whole Warp/Chaos thing (and even then the Tau have problems because the writers realized they're relatable so they tacked some atrocities on). The Imperium is held up by fans because A: satire/social criticism is really hard to write but at its heart it's there in the construction of the Imperium and B: a lot of people aren't using the same interpretations, ideas and themes to write them/fans get hired to write on lines so you end up with "wow, cool fascist decrepit empire!" in fans who really like skull pauldrons and mechas that treat their pilots like Baby Bjorns. The writing is also meant as a form of irony. The immense xenophobia of the Imperium is actively making everything worse constantly, making Chaos look like a viable alternative to the learned helplessness they know and focusing on destroying everything not made by mankind is loving over some of the groups who are older and more learned than the Imperium who could solve some of the problems of the setting. In fact, the bent of Wrath and Glory is "whoops now people have to work together", a plot thread really only unofficially explored by Dark Heresy giving Inquisitors a wide berth and officially explored by Rogue Trader because they have a writ to do whatever the hell they need to do. The factions as a whole are crumbling. The institutions as a whole are corrupt. When faced with Evil or The Lesser Evil, the choice in-setting is "be a loving protagonist, be revolutionary, go your own way as best as you can", not "swallow your pride and believe in The Lesser Evil".
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 22:27
|
|
|
I think you're also having a difficult time adapting material intended to provide fluff justification for why any wargame army can fiight any other wargame army into a human-scale conflict. And selling spin off novels, etc.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 22:40
|
|
|
Nessus posted:I think you're also having a difficult time adapting material intended to provide fluff justification for why any wargame army can fiight any other wargame army into a human-scale conflict. And selling spin off novels, etc.  death to lore, death to canon
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 22:45
|
|
|
I like having fluff and a well developed setting as a jumping off point sometimes, but if it limits you just change it. It should only ever be there as a 'getting started' point. Especially in an RPG, where the whole point is to give you something to help you write your own stories with your friends.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2020 23:04
|
|
|
When I ran this warham adventure the players mostly ignored the family drama and were happy to wander around the mansion grounds and investigate the tombs outside, which was fine because there's a pretty decent backstory for the family that used to own the mansion. Then thanks to their ignorance Evil Bart in the attic burned the place down and they had to fight the hard mode boss battle (not the lovely wizard one).
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2020 00:07
|
|
|
It's funny because they're like 'Anya's a dangerous path that requires you to fight The Dark Wizard' and as soon as I see Dark Wizard I go see if he's got backup pre-summoned and nope. So hell yeah, slam that path. Unsupported Hams Wizard being treated as a terrifying boss fight and getting one-shotted before their multi-turn summon spell for backup can go off is almost as consistently hilarious as 'we put Demon in the name so clearly it's terrifying and works as a boss no matter what its stats are right'. The adventure is actually kind of hilariously short if you go the Anya route. You just march straight up to Ondurin, have your fight, and if you waste him, since he's sustaining all the undead they start collapsing, mission over. I'll have more to write up about the alternate paths than the main one. The thing is wizards are real good and can be total bastards, just they need backup and they need it right at the start. You can't rely on them summoning it. A PC Wizard is dangerous because they have a party. Bad guy wizards need hype-men and dudes between them and pointy, pointy elf arrows. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Apr 27, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2020 00:31
|
|
|
Night10194 posted:The thing is wizards are real good and can be total bastards, just they need backup and they need it right at the start. You can't rely on them summoning it. A PC Wizard is dangerous because they have a party. Bad guy wizards need hype-men and dudes between them and pointy, pointy elf arrows. This is the main limitation of bretonnian knights, right? They don't get to carry a pistol to open things with before swording.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2020 00:41
|
|
|
The Lone Badger posted:This is the main limitation of bretonnian knights, right? They don't get to carry a pistol to open things with before swording. Yes, among other things. Gilbert can never use a gun or bow. In return he is probably the strongest class of melee character in the game even if you don't take some of the broken virtues like Heroism (he will be taking Ideal, the +1 Attacks when outnumbered one). E: My favorite thing is they tried to make Heroism clearer in second printings but actually just made it even stronger, since it triggers on any 10 on damage and instantly inflicts SB in Critical Value, meaning a newly minted Heroism Knight doesn't even need to confirm a fury to potentially one shot a bloodthirster. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Apr 27, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2020 00:47
|
|
|
Are they allowed to throw things?
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2020 00:53
|
|
|
Everyone posted:Like, say there was a situation with the Empire from Star Wars, the Reavers from Firefly/Serenity and the Cylons from Battlestar Galactica were in conflict (and relatively equally matched). The Empire is almost cartoonishly evil with Palpatine at their head. However, the Cylons want to destroy all sentient organic life and the Reavers want to rape, kill and eat organic-seeming sentient life (and not necessarily in that order). So, if you have to choose one of these factions to join/support and you're not either a sentient machine or a rape-murder-cannibal, you're kind of stuck supporting the Empire. Thing is, false dichotomies like this is a place where fascism thrives: by insisting that reasoned, non-rear end in a top hat choices don't exist and all you can do is make a HARD CHOICE and be a HARD MAN. Like either you TORTURE THESE PUPPIES and make a LIBERAL LAWYER CRY or THE TERRORISTS WIN. 40k has no faction, no matter how minor, marginalized, stereotyped, mocked or presented as hopeless that actually fights for an Imperium that is a better, more inclusive and less xenophobic place. So you don't even get the option. You gotta eat your hard choices all up or there'll be no giant skull pauldron dessert. I mean, yeah, in your hypothetical, you could either support the Empire or you could realize that a fascist dystopia is never earnestly going to be strong enough to win a serious war(on account of constant purges and focus on ideological correctness over actual competence) and attempt a progressive coup before it's too late and the Empire has wasted its best strength in the space gulags.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2020 00:54
|
|
|
The Lone Badger posted:Are they allowed to throw things? Technically, likely! Also, when not in Bretonnia (or when no-one is looking) they can certainly use ranged weapons, the whole thing is they're just terrible with them. Gilbert never gets a single BS advance. So even if he was to carry a crossbow or something, he'd always suck with it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2020 00:55
|
|
|
40K is, most importantly, a fictional universe created by human beings who made the conscious choice to make justify fascism by making all of the alternatives worse than fascism, and that's a creative decision I'm just kind of over in 2020
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2020 01:15
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:Certainly, they've been getting better (also, Valkia's not in 40k), but that's a long way from being good, and I consider the Sisters in particular to be... unfortunate. Oh weird, I was thinking Valkia was one of those named dual game characters, I stand corrected. I can certainly understand on the sisters, given their fraught history in the lore. I personally think there's some potential there, and they've been getting a push in the storyline that makes me cautiously optimistic. But it's a lot of housecleaning yet.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2020 01:17
|
|
|
Froghammer posted:40K is, most importantly, a fictional universe created by human beings who made the conscious choice to make justify fascism by making all of the alternatives worse than fascism, and that's a creative decision I'm just kind of over in 2020 That is the big one, the only reason Fascism works and is the Best option is because The Writers Say So - Fascist governments always ends up eating itself or collapse from incompetence.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2020 01:42
|
|
|
PurpleXVI posted:Thing is, false dichotomies like this is a place where fascism thrives: by insisting that reasoned, non-rear end in a top hat choices don't exist and all you can do is make a HARD CHOICE and be a HARD MAN. Like either you TORTURE THESE PUPPIES and make a LIBERAL LAWYER CRY or THE TERRORISTS WIN. And for that matter, you can often find sympathetic elements in other factions too. I mean, there's the Tau obviously, but if you want other sympathetic aliens you have the Eldar - Exodite, Craftworld, and new Ynnari Eldar all have something going for them. But then, the Eldar also get shafted a lot, and those that don't have their worst features intensified. There's a lot of fluff removal going on in the background to keep the grimdark going. e: Robindaybird posted:That is the big one, the only reason Fascism works and is the Best option is because The Writers Say So - Fascist governments always ends up eating itself or collapse from incompetence. It takes a lot of writing to keep it alive, too. Falconier111 fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Apr 27, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2020 01:50
|
|
|
Froghammer posted:40K is, most importantly, a fictional universe created by human beings who made the conscious choice to make justify fascism by making all of the alternatives worse than fascism, and that's a creative decision I'm just kind of over in 2020 This should be kept in mind with absolutely everything. Never let something get away with 'well it had to be like that', always ask 'why did someone write it so it had to be like that'. Like with all the poo poo in Thousand Thrones.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2020 01:54
|
|
|
While I do find the Imperium interesting in a macabre way, I am glad the protagonist fractions in the other two Warhammer settings are not horrible hellscapes. The Empire and Alliance of Order have their flaws, but are not even remotely as horrible.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2020 02:09
|
|
|
It makes me think of why the writing in Disco Elysium was so strong; there's actual empathy in it. It's a grim and often frightening world, and you're in a poor part of a city suffering under a long occupation. Times are hard. But plenty of the people you meet aren't. People have close friends, happy marriages, longing relationships or hopes for the future. It's still grim, but everyone you meet isn't just an rear end in a top hat for no reason. More things going for darker tones should learn that not everyone in them has to be a sociopath or sarcastic jerk to get that across. I think about DE a lot when I'm working on stuff about TTRPGs; hell, while I was looking at how combat capable the party became in Thousand Thrones I was thinking about how much it often silos players towards doing that because these kinds of pre-made campaigns usually have some mandatory combats that are a hard stop on progress if you aren't able to handle a fight, versus how having someone like Shanna who can do things without combat tends to be treated as a luxury. Half of why so much was viable in DE was because there wasn't some all-encompassing part of the system that would hard-stop you if you weren't good enough at it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2020 03:01
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:While I do find the Imperium interesting in a macabre way, I am glad the protagonist fractions in the other two Warhammer settings are not horrible hellscapes. The Empire and Alliance of Order have their flaws, but are not even remotely as horrible.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2020 03:03
|
|
|
Warhammer Fantasy Role Playing 4th Edition Starter Set Pedagogy is an important skill I actually have something to contribute to the discussion! For the past few weeks, I’ve been running a game of WFRP 4 Edition as a way of learning the system, as well as online games with Roll20. While I have Some Thoughts and Spicy Hot Takes on 4th Edition, particularly about how the presents itself to a GM, I don’t quite feel ready to start talking authoritatively about what the game does well or poorly. Mors Rattus has already provided a complete summary of the core book here if you'd like to know more about the actual rules. But I also picked up the Starter Set for the game, which is billed as follows: Store Description of Contents posted:The WFRP Starter Set contains everything needed to bring the grim and perilous world of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay to life. Whether roleplaying for the first time or preparing for your next epic campaign, this box is for you. As someone familiar with being a GM but new to 4th edition, I feel perfectly ready to share my thoughts on this introductory kit. First off, I want to acknowledge that Starter Kits are hard to do well. The first starter kit for Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition, “Lost Mine of Phandelver”, is generally considered pretty bad. Wizards of the Coast seemed to agree, as they released the ‘Essentials’ kit, “Dragon of Icespire Peak”, a few years later. D&D 4E had "Keep on the Shadowfell", an introductory adventure that some people in this thread blame for souring an entire generation on the edition. Creating a fun adventure designed to be run by first time GMs for first time players requires you to balance a lot of conflicting needs. I also don’t think the Starter Set is a good introduction to WFRP 4th Edition in particular, or roleplaying in general. It’s not bad, for the most part. It’s just mediocre for its intended purpose. To help show why, I’ll be rating each section 1-5 on two grades. The first grade is how cool, or interesting, or fun I think it is, something I’m calling Quality. If I think a segment is going to be a blast to play or run out of the box, it gets a 5. If a segment is boring garbage, it gets a 1. A lot of this is going to be wrapped up with what appeals to me in Warhammer Fantasy in the first place, so this absolutely a subjective rating. The second grade is how useful or instructive the segment is for new players and GMs, which I’m calling Guidance. If a segment is perfect for someone who has never played an RPG before, and teaches the rules well and models good behavior, it gets a 5. If a segment is confusing, misleading, or instills the sort of behaviors that ruins games and groups, it gets a 1. Any segment that requires extensive revision is also going to have a lower Guidance score - you can’t expect a first time GM to recognize a problem and know how to fix it, or even have the confidence to “go off script”. Rule 0 is absolutely not an excuse in a teaching environment, in my opinion. Wow, that's a lot of words to say "The first rating in mine, the second rating is a hypothetical new GM", isn't it? With that, I’d like to start talking about the contents of the kit starting with the pre-made characters, then the introductory adventure and scenarios, and then the setting guide. Next time: our brave adventurers!
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2020 03:25
|
|
|
Looking forward to this. I actually quite enjoy the starter set. But I am curious what others thought of it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2020 04:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 12:30 |
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:Looking forward to this. I actually quite enjoy the starter set. But I am curious what others thought of it. It's just all over the place.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2020 04:44
|
|