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Ungratek
Aug 2, 2005


Cavelcade posted:

He is! He has one of my favourite jokes in the Sanderson books.

This is a high point in literary history

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Old Kentucky Shark
May 25, 2012

If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.


al'Lan Mandragoran is a messy bitch who lives for drama.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





Old Kentucky Shark posted:

al'Lan Mandragoran is a messy bitch who lives for drama.

I mean, yes, but....
He decapitates a motherfucking Forsaken. Dude can do what the gently caress he wants.

Also I'm rereading AMOL and the initial plans of the Light still bother me because, well, they're dumb as poo poo. In the book before it, Rodel makes a point of telling one of his subordinates that 'if you ever get even the impression you're doing what the enemy wants, do something else instead.' And yet, they counter on all four fronts like a bunch of chumps and get wrecked because of it. Hell, Rand even points out divide and conquer is like the oldest trick in the book. And yet they still do it.
I know they needed to set up Mat taking over and all but... I dunno. I just can't see any one of those four captains not picking it out, unless Graendal had been at them already which I guess is a possibility.
You'll notice I'm not questioning Elayne's judgment, because at this point, why even bother lmao

Prairie Bus
Sep 22, 2006




Did Jordan or Sanderson ever talk about what happened with the Seafolk? I’m at The Shadow Rising in my re-read and got to the introduction of the Seafolk and the Coramoor prophecy. It seemed like they would be a bigger deal or at least have some more interactions with Rand than they did.

bloom
Feb 25, 2017

by sebmojo
Let's just say that booze cruises with topless waitresses were a huge hit in the 4th age.

Count Thrashula
Jun 1, 2003

Peak Performance.

Buglord
Do we ever find out why Emond's Field is so special? People keep saying things like "wow, 2 Aes Sedai and 3 ta'veren from one place, it must be very special!" But like... is there actually something more going on?

Note: I'm like 1/2 through The Dragon Reborn so no spoilers if it's after that, I was just curious.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





COOL CORN posted:

Do we ever find out why Emond's Field is so special? People keep saying things like "wow, 2 Aes Sedai and 3 ta'veren from one place, it must be very special!" But like... is there actually something more going on?

Note: I'm like 1/2 through The Dragon Reborn so no spoilers if it's after that, I was just curious.

It's never explicitly said outright, though heavily implied, that because Emond's Field was so isolated from the world it wasn't really subject to the culling of the channeling 'genes' that a lot of places were

Prairie Bus
Sep 22, 2006




COOL CORN posted:

Do we ever find out why Emond's Field is so special? People keep saying things like "wow, 2 Aes Sedai and 3 ta'veren from one place, it must be very special!" But like... is there actually something more going on?

Note: I'm like 1/2 through The Dragon Reborn so no spoilers if it's after that, I was just curious.

Keep reading. Some of the pieces are there, but it’s not fully clear yet.

I hate being cryptic so here’s some spoilers you shouldn’t look at. On a reread I really liked Ingtar’s speech from Book 2 about nations receding - it sets the tone for a lot of the world building to come. Every nation has been on a downward spiral, including the White Tower. The problem isn’t that magic has receded, it’s that no one is looking for it. The Wise Ones, the Windfinders, the Kin - there are plenty of other groups doing their own thing. The White Tower is just sclerotic and atrophied and doesn’t have the capacity to look for better channelers.

Count Thrashula
Jun 1, 2003

Peak Performance.

Buglord
Cool, I didn't read the spoilers but those two posts give me enough to start putting pieces together in my head :)

Democratic Pirate
Feb 17, 2010

Up to The Shadow Rising on my reread. I like how Moiraine/other Aes Sedai manipulate Rand and Perrin into being lords just by listening to them, which makes others do the same.

How are u
May 19, 2005

by Azathoth
It's been many months but I just finished my re-read, heck of a series.

Robert Jordan posted:

There are no endings, and never will be endings, to the turning of the Wheel of Time.

But it was an ending.


That's the stuff.

I feel like I could really tell the differences between RJ's writing style and Sanderson's this time around. I rather enjoy the last 3 books, but I did notice the differences more than the first time I read them.

Gnoman
Feb 12, 2014

Come, all you fair and tender maids
Who flourish in your pri-ime
Beware, take care, keep your garden fair
Let Gnoman steal your thy-y-me
Le-et Gnoman steal your thyme




Comrade Blyatlov posted:

It's never explicitly said outright, though heavily implied, that because Emond's Field was so isolated from the world it wasn't really subject to the culling of the channeling 'genes' that a lot of places were

The books make it pretty clear that the "culling" theory was bunk.

The Aiel, Sea Folk, and Seanchan are at least as aggressive (and probably much more effective) at elimination of male channelers as the Red Ajah is, and that's what they think may be culling humanity. The difference is that those societies also find close to 100% of the girls that can channel as well, while the Aes Sedai mostly restrict themselves to girls that seek testing or training, and have a habit of turning away talent if it is too low or the girl is too old. The power and commonality of Two Rivers channelers isn't a great rarity at all, the AS just never bothered to look.

There's also some suggestion that the Aes Sedai are routinely awed by the strength of "wilders" because they treat the Power with such timidity, and rarely reach their full potential.

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!





I'm up to Knife of Dreams in my re-read.

It's nice to be past Crossroads, which wasn't as bad as I remembered. I was dreading it, a lot, but wasn't as bad as I remembered. It still wasn't good.

I think my biggest complaint right now is just how few people know about the Cleansing. Why the gently caress isn't Rand proclaiming this everywhere? Or the Asha'man? It's an Age-defining event that ended three thousand years of pain and suffering, for both men who can channel and their eventual victims.

The most we have so far is one Asha'man being kind of a dick about it to the rebel Hall outside Tar Valon.

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!





How are u posted:

It's been many months but I just finished my re-read, heck of a series.


That's the stuff.

I feel like I could really tell the differences between RJ's writing style and Sanderson's this time around. I rather enjoy the last 3 books, but I did notice the differences more than the first time I read them.

I'm doing mine via audiobook, and maybe it's because the readers kept a consistent voice for the characters regardless of whether it's Jordan or Sanderson, but I really haven't noticed much difference. A few scenes, particularly early in Gathering Storm, felt longer and wordier than I'd have expected from Jordan, but by where I am now about halfway through Towers of Midnight it all feels fairly consistent with the first twelve books.

What do you feel are the major differences?

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS




Because he was in hiding. And no one believes male channelers anyway.

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

jng2058 posted:

What do you feel are the major differences?

If I remember right, Sanderson pointed out that he uses contractions in narration text, while RJ never does that. So there's one difference.

Nihilarian
Oct 2, 2013


silvergoose posted:

Because he was in hiding. And no one believes male channelers anyway.
"huh the insane man is telling us he fixed the thing that drove him and everyone like him for the last 3,000 years insane"

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008




Everyone keeps saying they have a hard time telling it’s cleansed too. And they stay insane so that doesn’t help.

I got to the Sanderson books and I can definitely tell in just the way he hops around instead of sticking with one person for half the book. I feel like he doesn’t have as good descriptions like Jordan has. It’s not bad but it is different.

SSJ_naruto_2003
Oct 12, 2012



Gnoman posted:

The books make it pretty clear that the "culling" theory was bunk.

The Aiel, Sea Folk, and Seanchan are at least as aggressive (and probably much more effective) at elimination of male channelers as the Red Ajah is, and that's what they think may be culling humanity. The difference is that those societies also find close to 100% of the girls that can channel as well, while the Aes Sedai mostly restrict themselves to girls that seek testing or training, and have a habit of turning away talent if it is too low or the girl is too old. The power and commonality of Two Rivers channelers isn't a great rarity at all, the AS just never bothered to look.

There's also some suggestion that the Aes Sedai are routinely awed by the strength of "wilders" because they treat the Power with such timidity, and rarely reach their full potential.


Not necessarily true. The Aes Sedai do another thing that the others do not which is almost never have kids, right? I think the wise ones and windfinders both have plenty of children, which keeps the channeling gene alive.

The Lord Bude
May 23, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT MY SHITTY, BOUGIE INTERIOR DECORATING ADVICE

COOL CORN posted:

Cool, I didn't read the spoilers but those two posts give me enough to start putting pieces together in my head :)

Those aren't really spoilers, except in the vaguest world building background detail kind of way.

Vavrek posted:

If I remember right, Sanderson pointed out that he uses contractions in narration text, while RJ never does that. So there's one difference.

Sanderson also likes to use the word 'politics' a lot which drives me insane because RJ used it I think once in 11 books. RJ would always talk about schemes or the game of houses. It's one of the most glaring of Sanderson's word choices, although there are others. They jump out at you because they don't feel right - too modern. In general though his prose doesn't feel as epic and refined. It's more workmanlike. I put his prose writing skills on par with the people who write tie in novels for star trek and D&D and the like. It's nothing like as bad as it is in drivel tier fiction like Eragon though.

How are u
May 19, 2005

by Azathoth

The Lord Bude posted:

Sanderson also likes to use the word 'politics' a lot which drives me insane because RJ used it I think once in 11 books. RJ would always talk about schemes or the game of houses. It's one of the most glaring of Sanderson's word choices, although there are others. They jump out at you because they don't feel right - too modern. In general though his prose doesn't feel as epic and refined. It's more workmanlike. I put his prose writing skills on par with the people who write tie in novels for star trek and D&D and the like. It's nothing like as bad as it is in drivel tier fiction like Eragon though.

Pretty much this. He uses words that RJ never used and writes differently enough that it pops out, especially if you've been re-reading the series over the course of months rather than many years. I'm not complaining, though, I can't imagine how the story could have been finished otherwise.

I'm sure it's barely noticeable if you're listening to the audio books, I'll have to get the last 3 on audio for road trips or something.

Spek
Jun 15, 2012

Bagel!

jng2058 posted:

I'm doing mine via audiobook, and maybe it's because the readers kept a consistent voice for the characters regardless of whether it's Jordan or Sanderson, but I really haven't noticed much difference. A few scenes, particularly early in Gathering Storm, felt longer and wordier than I'd have expected from Jordan, but by where I am now about halfway through Towers of Midnight it all feels fairly consistent with the first twelve books.

What do you feel are the major differences?

One of the big differences I notice I only noticed when I listened to the audio book which is the dialogue structure is often very different.

In two main ways. The first is on quick back and forth dialogues RJ would be like

"blah blah" Rand says.
"bleh bleh" Nyneave replies

and then the rest of the conversation would just be like

"blah blah"
"bleh bleh"

with who says what up the the reader to infer based on the ordering. Whereas Sanderson puts the [Name] says after almost every single line. When actually reading it my mind just filters that out but when listening to it it sounds really odd and stilted to have "Rand says", "Nyneave says", "Rand says", "Nyneave says", "Rand says", "Nyneave says". Especially since he doesn't use any synonyms for said in this circumstances so it ends up sounding really repetitive when read aloud.

The other way is that RJ was much more inclined to nestles his dialogue into paragraphs also containing descriptive prose. They both do it of course but Sanderson jumps straight to the [name] says, [other name] says. Style of dialogues much quicker and for shorter dialogues whereas RJ mostly kept those for lengthier discussions.

ChickenWing
Jul 22, 2010

:v:

The way I had it described to me is that Sanderson has a much more Modern (capital intended) style of writing, in that it's much more realistic and informal, whereas RJ is a much more Tolkeinesque writer, and so there's a lot more emphasis on not only making a fantasy world, but making every word you read feel like it's describing a fantasy world. The characters also tend to act more Fantastic - lots of monologuing and flowery speech, where it doesn't feel as forced to add some sort of speech descriptor after every line. Modern writers tend to have a lot more realistic conversations between multiple characters, and so you end up with "x said y said x said y said" because it just melts into the background.


Reading Sanderson's first WoT book felt like running into a literary brick wall. The tone shift was incredibly jarring, but because I don't tend to pick out details unless I'm looking for them I couldn't really chalk it up to anything in particular. Luckily, the big focus of the last couple books was battle writing, which probably his biggest strength and the reason his second and third books were significantly better.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound
RJ is very deliberately trying to make sure that nothing in his word choice violates the "willing suspension of disbelief" -- everything is being written in third person limited, theoretically from a given character's viewpoint. Matrim Cauthon doesn't know the word "politics" because it isn't a word in his world because his world isn't a democracy. He knows the phrase "game of houses" instead because it's a game played by houses not by cities or peoples -- no polis here.

Sanderson just misses the cue.

Gnoman
Feb 12, 2014

Come, all you fair and tender maids
Who flourish in your pri-ime
Beware, take care, keep your garden fair
Let Gnoman steal your thy-y-me
Le-et Gnoman steal your thyme




SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:

Not necessarily true. The Aes Sedai do another thing that the others do not which is almost never have kids, right? I think the wise ones and windfinders both have plenty of children, which keeps the channeling gene alive.

While that is true, it doesn't account for the fact that the rebel AS start finding candidates in massive numbers as soon as Egwene declares that all restrictions are gone. All of a sudden, they go from a White Tower that's mostly empty to an expectation that they'll have to reopen areas that haven't been used in centuries. All from the lands that were supposedly "culled".

Zore
Sep 21, 2010
willfully illiterate, aggressively miserable sourpuss whose sole raison d’etre is to put other people down for liking the wrong things

Gnoman posted:

While that is true, it doesn't account for the fact that the rebel AS start finding candidates in massive numbers as soon as Egwene declares that all restrictions are gone. All of a sudden, they go from a White Tower that's mostly empty to an expectation that they'll have to reopen areas that haven't been used in centuries. All from the lands that were supposedly "culled".

Part of that is They've only been looking for 'sparkers' for the last few centuries, that is wen who naturally channel the one power accidentally or the few that make their way to Tar Valon to try to be Are Sedai or that an Aes Sedai ran into by chance. The greater population of channelers are dormant unless taught, so once they actually start looking for them they fall over them

Submarine Sandpaper
May 27, 2007


Gnoman posted:

While that is true, it doesn't account for the fact that the rebel AS start finding candidates in massive numbers as soon as Egwene declares that all restrictions are gone. All of a sudden, they go from a White Tower that's mostly empty to an expectation that they'll have to reopen areas that haven't been used in centuries. All from the lands that were supposedly "culled".

they want the young and impressionable for their cult regardless of what that does to power. Easier to recruit to the black.

Spek
Jun 15, 2012

Bagel!
I interpreted it as a kind of side effect of the pattern throwing a bunch of men who could channel out until the proper Dragon proclaimed himself. Like the pattern lacked the precision to send out just the Dragon, it probably also lacked the precision for just men who could channel, so the current generation of people generally contains more people with the spark or the ability to learn than recent generations. And that increased proportion was probably even higher around the vicinity of the Dragon. It might even be the cause of why old, and maybe new, talents are popping up.

But I don't think there's any discrete textual evidence for that theory. I just like it.

Prairie Bus
Sep 22, 2006




Zore posted:

Part of that is They've only been looking for 'sparkers' for the last few centuries, that is wen who naturally channel the one power accidentally or the few that make their way to Tar Valon to try to be Are Sedai or that an Aes Sedai ran into by chance. The greater population of channelers are dormant unless taught, so once they actually start looking for them they fall over them

It speaks to the decadence of the Tower. It’s everywhere when you look for it. In one of the first scenes between Siuan and Moiraine, they’re both aghast at the assertion that Siuan is a blue while Moiraine’s inner narration explicitly talks about how many blues had risen to the seat. Even the most dynamic Aes Sedai is stuck thinking in these petty power politics systems.

Speaking of distinguishing features in Jordan’s writing, I love how he constantly weaves in dramatic irony and not-quite-reliable narrators. It’s like Hieronymous Alloy says, he’s very invested in making sure everyone only knows what they know and thinks how they’d think.

Mat Cauthon
Jan 2, 2006

The more tragic things get,
the more I feel like laughing.



I always read it as a combination of

- Aes Sedai insularity and overly critical standards for recruitment
- Groups like the Kin hoovering up wilders and keeping them out of the hands of the Tower, plus the Wise Ones sending a few weak Aiel channelers to the allay suspicions, Sea Folk doing their own thing, etc.

But mostly I think it's just the fact that the Dragon is Reborn and the Last Battle is imminent so the Pattern said "time to start pumping out channelers of significant strength in both genders, YOLO".

COOL CORN posted:

Do we ever find out why Emond's Field is so special? People keep saying things like "wow, 2 Aes Sedai and 3 ta'veren from one place, it must be very special!" But like... is there actually something more going on?

Note: I'm like 1/2 through The Dragon Reborn so no spoilers if it's after that, I was just curious.

The blood and legacy of Manethren, plus ta'veren influence.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE

Mat Cauthon posted:

plus the Wise Ones sending a few weak Aiel channelers to the allay suspicions, Sea Folk doing their own thing, etc.

It's the other way around, Sea Folk sent their weakest to the White Tower as a sacrifice, the Aiel sent nobody.

I'm still sad that we won't ever get those outrigger novels about Mat and Tuon reclaiming Seanchan. Those would have probably showed at least hints of how the Seanchan society reformed to a more palatable state. And it also would have been interesting to see the Randland Seanchan fighting the others. They have things like Healing and Traveling that the others lack, both of which would have been huge advantages. And it would have been more good writing by Robert Jordan :(

Khizan
Jul 30, 2013


COOL CORN posted:

Do we ever find out why Emond's Field is so special? People keep saying things like "wow, 2 Aes Sedai and 3 ta'veren from one place, it must be very special!" But like... is there actually something more going on?

Note: I'm like 1/2 through The Dragon Reborn so no spoilers if it's after that, I was just curious.

Moiraine tells you why in The Eye of the World, when she's telling the villagers the story of Manetheran.

Emond's Field is Aemon's Field, where the last king of Manetheran, Aemon al Caar al Thorin, died on the field of battle and the old blood of Manetheran is still strong there. It's why they have farmers with names like Paet al'Caar and Tam al'Thor, and it's why Mat is shouting battlecries from Manetheran in the Old Tongue in the first book. "Carai an Caldazar! Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande!"

bloom
Feb 25, 2017

by sebmojo

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

RJ is very deliberately trying to make sure that nothing in his word choice violates the "willing suspension of disbelief" -- everything is being written in third person limited, theoretically from a given character's viewpoint. Matrim Cauthon doesn't know the word "politics" because it isn't a word in his world because his world isn't a democracy. He knows the phrase "game of houses" instead because it's a game played by houses not by cities or peoples -- no polis here.

Sanderson just misses the cue.

"He shook his head. Politics did not interest him."

"Mat shook his head. "I do not care about politics, Master Gill. It's Gaebril I want to know about.""

From The Dragon Reborn :eng101:

mossyfisk
Nov 8, 2010

FF0000
I think the proportion of channelers with or without the spark changes over time? When there are few sparks, people assume there are less chanellers unless they deliberately go out of their way to dig them up.

There are also periods where basically no one is born with the spark, and magic becomes a myth.

Ponsonby Britt
Mar 13, 2006
I think you mean, why is there silverware in the pancake drawer? Wassup?

Torrannor posted:

I'm still sad that we won't ever get those outrigger novels about Mat and Tuon reclaiming Seanchan. Those would have probably showed at least hints of how the Seanchan society reformed to a more palatable state. And it also would have been interesting to see the Randland Seanchan fighting the others. They have things like Healing and Traveling that the others lack, both of which would have been huge advantages. And it would have been more good writing by Robert Jordan :(

Also the bit from AMoL about Tuon dragooning Min as an advisor that would have set up a bunch of wacky sitcom shenanigans, with Rand sneaking around trying to spend time with Min, Mat running elaborate schemes to keep Rand's identity from Tuon and the rest of the Seanchan, and Tuon thinking that Min is just dating some gross peasant guy.

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

Torrannor posted:

I'm still sad that we won't ever get those outrigger novels about Mat and Tuon reclaiming Seanchan. Those would have probably showed at least hints of how the Seanchan society reformed to a more palatable state. And it also would have been interesting to see the Randland Seanchan fighting the others. They have things like Healing and Traveling that the others lack, both of which would have been huge advantages. And it would have been more good writing by Robert Jordan :(

You know how they always say Rand's the most powerful ta'veren since the breaking (since, I always assume, Telamon)? Wildly outstrips Artur Hawkwing? Oh and Mat and Perrin were there too? So Mat's a ta'veren at least on par with Artur Hawkwing, and has just married into Hawkwing's imperial dynasty.

You're drat right on your last point.
:(

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008




Granted I’m not done, but finding that Kin lady who could hold a shield that even a forsaken couldn’t break was a wasted opportunity to give weak Aes Sedai a niche. It was brought up to show White Tower rejects found useful ways to do things instead of using pure strength and then it’s kinda forgotten.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE

Invalid Validation posted:

Granted I’m not done, but finding that Kin lady who could hold a shield that even a forsaken couldn’t break was a wasted opportunity to give weak Aes Sedai a niche. It was brought up to show White Tower rejects found useful ways to do things instead of using pure strength and then it’s kinda forgotten.

Well, there's that one Asha'man who punches far above his weight because he's very good at one specific thing. But in general, you're right, that was a wasted opportunity. The least RJ should have done was showing more weak channelers who could also make ter'angreal imho.

Anias
Jun 3, 2010

It really is a lovely hat

That it’s a close run race between rand and mat for most directed slaying is on the face of it completely insane given mat and the band are not an order of ninja wizards, and yet.

The part of these books that completely confounds me is that morale isn’t just gone within a minute among the common troops.

Deathgates vs massed cannons through gateways. Good luck soldier, you have a loving spear. All men die indeed.

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Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





Invalid Validation posted:

Granted I’m not done, but finding that Kin lady who could hold a shield that even a forsaken couldn’t break was a wasted opportunity to give weak Aes Sedai a niche. It was brought up to show White Tower rejects found useful ways to do things instead of using pure strength and then it’s kinda forgotten.

Lol put her leading a massive circle and shield people so hard they cant even feel the source

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