|
euphronius posted:You are assuming they could carry the Ring and the Ring bearer which is ... I don’t think that could happen Tolkien seems to have changed his mind a couple times before deciding that eagles don't have souls/fëar: they're animals that happen to be able to talk as opposed to "people". Both normal animals (the hobbits' ponies they leave in Bree) and more intelligent animals (Asfaloth) have no apparent issue carrying Frodo and the Ring. The Nazgul ride normal rear end horses that they steal from Rohan, suggesting that their rings' corrupting influence also do not extend to their mounts, despite said mounts being the presence of the rings for far longer periods of time than the ponies or Asfaloth are around Frodo. Obviously the nine rings are less powerful and overall corrupting than the One, but I think taken together you can absolutely argue that the rings in general only influence beings with fëar.
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 20:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 02:39 |
|
|
"[Sauron] uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling." -- "Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life. Those that followed him knew not his mind and cannot report his full purpose." -- “The rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, these are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know?” -- “The counsel of Gandalf was not founded on foreknowledge of safety, for himself or for others,” said Aragorn. “There are some things that it is better to begin than to refuse, even though the end may be dark.” As for "using" Frodo, Gandalf has to know that Frodo was hosed from the instant Gandalf knew that what he had was the One Ring. If he stayed in the Shire, Sauron would have found him. If Gandalf forced the ring from him, it would've broken his mind. And then possession of the Ring would've corrupted Gandalf. The only hope for Frodo, and Middle Earth, was if the ring could be destroyed. It wasn't the happiest ending for Frodo, but it was a lot better than becoming a lesser wraith, tormented for all time in a world ruled by Sauron.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 20:25
|
|
|
The question that's really been bugging me is: did Gandalf gently caress? I mean his name is "wand-elf", which has me thinking this guy fucks.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 20:37
|
|
|
Tolkien clarified in later writings and letters that Sauron held the nine rings himself, not the Nazgul. I'm inclined to think that the idea of the eagles flying straight to Mount Doom is a dumb idea and I wish it would stop coming up. Do you not think the Eye would see giant loving eagles coming straight at Mordor? Do you not think he would send the winged Nazgul against them the instant he saw them? The only reason the eagles can show up at the battle of the black gates is that the Nazgul have been called away toward Mount Doom with all possible speed. Besides all that, Frodo couldn't drop the ring at the end. It took the intervention of fate/god through Gollum to do it. Even if he were on the back of an eagle, he couldn't do it. Nor would he give it up to somebody else to do it, nor would anyone else be able to do it even if they forced him to give it up.
Imagined fucked around with this message at 20:43 on May 5, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 20:41
|
|
|
Pham Nuwen posted:The question that's really been bugging me is: did Gandalf gently caress? He probably could have, if he'd wanted to. Melian even bore a child. But I doubt he wanted to.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 20:43
|
|
|
Pham Nuwen posted:The question that's really been bugging me is: did Gandalf gently caress? A wizard comes precisely when he means to.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 21:46
|
|
|
Radio! posted:Tolkien seems to have changed his mind a couple times before deciding that eagles don't have souls/fëar: they're animals that happen to be able to talk as opposed to "people". Both normal animals (the hobbits' ponies they leave in Bree) and more intelligent animals (Asfaloth) have no apparent issue carrying Frodo and the Ring. Those horses are majorly hosed up by the nazgul They don’t have their rings anymore anyway. The eagles - well the ones we meet - in LOTR are sentient beings imho who would be tempted by the Ring. I understand T changed him mind a l out about things Thru the 50s and 60s
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 21:50
|
|
|
HopperUK posted:He probably could have, if he'd wanted to. Melian even bore a child. But I doubt he wanted to. That establishes that the Maiar can have sex, and if we look at his tobacco habit (and, presumably, his fireworks hobby?) we see that Gandalf occasionally did things for personal enjoyment... so I think it's possible, maybe even likely, that Gandalf has hosed. Elf, Man, Hobbit, or Dwarf, that's the question. Maybe that's what happened to the Entwives--they found out about wizard dick and bailed on the Ents.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 21:52
|
|
|
Imagined posted:
Yeah. Frodo is pissed at him here : ‘A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the Dark Power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later – later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last – sooner or later the Dark Power will devour him.’ ‘How terrifying!’ said Frodo. There was another long silence. The sound of Sam Gamgee cutting the lawn came in from the garden. ‘How long have you known this?’ asked Frodo at length. ‘And how much did Bilbo know?’ ‘Bilbo knew no more than he told you, I am sure,’ said Gandalf. ‘He would certainly never have passed on to you anything that he thought would be a danger, even though I promised to look after you. He thought the ring was very beautiful, and very useful at need; and if anything was wrong or queer, it was himself. He said that it was “growing on his mind”, and he was always worrying about it; but he did not suspect that the ring itself was to blame. Though he had found out that the thing needed looking after; it did not seem always of the same size or weight; it shrank or expanded in an odd way, and might suddenly slip off a finger where it had been tight.’ ‘Yes, he warned me of that in his last letter,’ said Frodo, ‘so I have always kept it on its chain.’ ‘Very wise,’ said Gandalf. ‘But as for his long life, Bilbo never connected it with the ring at all. He took all the credit for that to himself, and he was very proud of it. Though he was getting restless and uneasy. Thin and stretched he said. A sign that the ring was getting control.’ ‘How long have you known all this?’ asked Frodo again. ‘Known?’ said Gandalf. ‘I have known much that only the Wise know, Frodo. But if you mean “known about this ring”, well, I still do not know, one might say. There is a last test to make. But I no longer doubt my guess.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:02
|
|
|
WoodrowSkillson posted:The actual answer, once the ring had been found, would have been to load up Bilbo, Gandalf, and some elves on Eagles and just blast into Mordor as fast as possible and huck the ring into the volcano, cutting off Bilbos finger/hand to do it if need be ...and then when it comes to the critical point, Gandalf succumbs to the temptation to claim the Ring for his own and challenge Sauron for mastery of it, the same as Frodo does, except now instead of a hobbit claiming the Ring who can be clowned on by another hobbit, you've got a Maia claiming it, good luck biting *his* finger off.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:42
|
|
|
Pham Nuwen posted:That establishes that the Maiar can have sex, and if we look at his tobacco habit (and, presumably, his fireworks hobby?) we see that Gandalf occasionally did things for personal enjoyment... so I think it's possible, maybe even likely, that Gandalf has hosed. He absolutely hosed Galadriel. I will not be persuaded otherwise. E: Celeborn invented cucking. VanSandman fucked around with this message at 23:51 on May 5, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:49
|
|
|
sassassin posted:So Gandalf didn't make a mistake because he knew the author wanted him to die to be reborn? It wasn't a mistake to get killed by a Balrog he didn't know was there because the author wanted to talk about Balrogs? Lmao this fuckin thread, and you in particular. In LotR is there any doubt for the average reader that upon seeing Frodo setting out from Hobbiton the quest of the ring will be a success? Is there any doubt that in that a world where "evil yet be good to have been" Sauron was indeed not a real "threat", but a partner in making any story in the first place, much less getting it to conclude properly? You're so proud of your new criticism bullshit, but it destroys the normal reasons to even read a fairy story - why bother?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 01:10
|
|
|
The Istari were given the bodies of men so that they could feel the emotions that men could feel. Aside from being nearly unaging and having various angel powers, their bodies could succumb to the needs and the injuries that men's bodies could. All that is to say that Gandalf was capable of wanting to gently caress and of loving.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 03:01
|
|
|
All this questioning of whether Gandalf fucks is ignoring the much more interesting question of whether Saruman fucks
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 03:08
|
|
|
maybe if he had, things would've turned out differently
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 03:26
|
|
|
skasion posted:All this questioning of whether Gandalf fucks is ignoring the much more interesting question of whether Saruman fucks Did you think "wormtongue" was a reference to the way he talked?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 03:30
|
|
|
Pham Nuwen posted:Did you think "wormtongue" was a reference to the way he talked? gently caress, beaten. 
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 03:31
|
|
|
skasion posted:All this questioning of whether Gandalf fucks is ignoring the much more interesting question of whether Saruman fucks
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 03:34
|
|
|
Imagined posted:gently caress, beaten. Same 
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 03:37
|
|
|
Trin Tragula posted:...and then when it comes to the critical point, Gandalf succumbs to the temptation to claim the Ring for his own and challenge Sauron for mastery of it, the same as Frodo does, except now instead of a hobbit claiming the Ring who can be clowned on by another hobbit, you've got a Maia claiming it, good luck biting *his* finger off. Yeah good point, Gandalf never should have been entrusted with hanging around with the ringbearer for a planned 3 months minimum and then climbing Mt Doom and tossing the ring in.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 04:06
|
|
|
Gandalf passed his test in the Shire way far away from Mordor and sauron The ring got steadily more powerful as it got closer.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 04:11
|
|
|
The day was dark, and darkness held heavily on the day. I walked out to the parapet to look at the darkness, and darkness was on my brow. I ate three of the dry apples that were left in our chambers, but darkness laid upon my shoulders and I was unable to eat any longer. Then the door flew open and Gandalf was there! The hour grows short, said he, and we must rush to the ramparts. My leg twinged with its darkness. I retreated to the stony alcove of the little room. Do not tarry said Gandalf, and his visage took on an aspect I had never seen before. Not wholly an old man, but not entirely a young man either. His hands seemed to be made not of hands, but of the silvery mithlond, of which only the Old Tales told. Let us tarry in this chamber a little while, said he, as he unbuttoned my telthalan* *Telthalan were what the men of the West called pants, before the lower Ages corrupted their wear and usage. Teriyaki Hairpiece fucked around with this message at 05:27 on May 6, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 04:36
|
|
|
Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:The day was dark, and darkness held heavily on the day. I walked out to the parapet to look at the darkness, and darkness was on my brow. I ate three of the dry apples that were left in our chambers, but darkness laid upon my shoulders and I was unable to eat any longer. Then the door flew open and Gandalf was there! The hour grows short, said he, and we must rush to the ramparts. My leg twinged with its darkness. I retreated to the stony alcove of the little room. Do not tarry said Gandalf, and his visage took on an aspect I had never seen before. Not wholly an old man, but not entirely a young man either. His hands seemed to be made not of hands, but of the silvery mithlond, of which only the Old Tales told. Let us tarry in this chamber a little while, said He, as he unbuttoned my telthalan* I put on my robe and wizard hat
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 05:00
|
|
|
skasion posted:All this questioning of whether Gandalf fucks is ignoring the much more interesting question of whether Saruman fucks Why do you think he's so intent on recruiting Gandalf to his side?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 11:23
|
|
|
Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:A wizard comes precisely when he means to.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 11:40
|
|
|
Imagined posted:Tolkien clarified in later writings and letters that Sauron held the nine rings himself, not the Nazgul. I'm inclined to think that the idea of the eagles flying straight to Mount Doom is a dumb idea and I wish it would stop coming up. Do you not think the Eye would see giant loving eagles coming straight at Mordor? Do you not think he would send the winged Nazgul against them the instant he saw them? The only reason the eagles can show up at the battle of the black gates is that the Nazgul have been called away toward Mount Doom with all possible speed. Besides all that, Frodo couldn't drop the ring at the end. It took the intervention of fate/god through Gollum to do it. Even if he were on the back of an eagle, he couldn't do it. Nor would he give it up to somebody else to do it, nor would anyone else be able to do it even if they forced him to give it up. That's easy to solve. At first attack with some Eagles as a diversion. A diversionary attack worked in the books too. Then when the winged Nazguls are occupied elsewhere, make your move. And since Frodo won't give the Ring, let him keep it, but drop the Frodo + Ring packet in.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 11:59
|
|
|
WoodrowSkillson posted:Yeah good point, Gandalf never should have been entrusted with hanging around with the ringbearer for a planned 3 months minimum and then climbing Mt Doom and tossing the ring in. This comes back to something that's come up before: a lot of people assume that there was definitely a firm plan in Gandalf's mind for exactly how the journey from Rivendell to Sammath Naur was going to go at every step. It's always worth remembering Elrond's parting words to the Fellowship: quote:‘The Ring-bearer is setting out on the Quest of Mount Doom. On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need. The others go with him as free companions, to help him on his way. You may tarry, or come back, or turn aside into other paths, as chance allows. The further you go, the less easy will it be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road.’ He is clearly telling all nine of them to place some trust in chance and fate rather than overly-rigorous planning or the inflexible swearing of oaths. From what Aragorn says and thinks after he begins leading the Fellowship, it's pretty clear that he and Gandalf both had a firm idea of how to get to Rauros, the point where Boromir and Aragorn would have to turn and make for Minas Tirith to fight for Gondor as they always intended to; and Gandalf then intended to have a jolly good think about things and see what else was happening before deciding what should happen next and where he personally should go.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 23:55
|
|
|
Even though it's a dumb complaint (go tell it to the plot hole?! twitters) I am picturing the death star run but with eagles dropping hobbits and Galadriel quietly saying "fatty Bolger died to bring us this information"
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 04:17
|
|
|
Blood Boils posted:Even though it's a dumb complaint (go tell it to the plot hole?! twitters) I am picturing the death star run but with eagles dropping hobbits and Galadriel quietly saying "fatty Bolger died to bring us this information" "What if instead of Christopher Tolkien we had Kevin J Anderson"
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 06:25
|
|
|
Tree Bucket posted:"What if instead of Christopher Tolkien we had Kevin J Anderson" Or Brian Herbert.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 13:13
|
|
|
Who wants to hear Andy Serkis read The Hobbit from beginning to end for charity? https://www.gofundme.com/f/thehobbitathoncovid19appeal
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:10
|
|
|
Runcible Cat posted:Who wants to hear Andy Serkis read The Hobbit from beginning to end for charity? He's at the Gollum part and of course he's done the voice.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2020 12:40
|
|
|
I know it's not the point, but after a few minutes I'm unimpressed with him as a narrator.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2020 13:41
|
|
|
Deptfordx posted:I know it's not the point, but after a few minutes I'm unimpressed with him as a narrator. Yeah, he doesn't seem to have much idea about the rhythm of the prose. But oh well, the riddle-game in movie-Gollum's voice is fun anyway.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2020 14:08
|
|
|
Nicol Williamson (played Merlin in Excalibur) did a (sadly abridged) reading of The Hobbit back in the day. It owns. He even manages to make “Tra-la-la-lally” sound good
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2020 14:20
|
|
|
Pham Nuwen posted:The question that's really been bugging me is: did Gandalf gently caress? Mr. Wands was very attached to Shadowfax.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2020 14:29
|
|
|
I always thought movie gollum was over the top monkeycheese stuff, i pictured a sort of darker more grimey creature that snarls at everything constantly
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2020 14:51
|
|
|
Pham Nuwen posted:The question that's really been bugging me is: did Gandalf gently caress? Sexuality and Tolkien is so loving weird. Yes, Gandalf fucks, and no one he fucks is the same after.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2020 15:08
|
|
|
WoodrowSkillson posted:Sexuality and Tolkien is so loving weird. Realtalk I'm pretty glad sexuality has little role in Tolkien's work because I don't think I could stand litigating whether Fatty Bolger is bisexual or not. "Frodo and Sam are totally gay for each other" is more than enough.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2020 15:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 02:39 |
|
|
Pham Nuwen posted:Realtalk I'm pretty glad sexuality has little role in Tolkien's work because I don't think I could stand litigating whether Fatty Bolger is bisexual or not. "Frodo and Sam are totally gay for each other" is more than enough. its more that stuff like elven reproduction is a whole deep dive into weird 1930s catholic ideas about sex and whooo boy
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2020 16:13
|
|