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ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004


Leslie Jordan, is that the little guy who they keep pulling pranks on in Ski Patrol?

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got any sevens
Feb 9, 2013

by Cyrano4747

ruddiger posted:

Leslie Jordan, is that the little guy who they keep pulling pranks on in Ski Patrol?

You havent been watching his instagrams during quarantine? You are in for a treat

Chairman Capone
Dec 17, 2008

Detective No. 27 posted:

Despite the really obvious visual imagery of the sperm going in the egg thing when he's telling the story, everyone at Lucasfilm has denied it being the case. :shrug:

Schwarzwald posted:

The read that Palpatine is secretly confessing to being Anakin's father or whatever also misses the point he's trying to make with the story.

Lucas actually did originally have dialogue later in the movie in the scene where Palpatine confesses to Anakin that he's the Sith Lord, where Palpatine adds that he created Anakin through the Force and "You might say... I am your father." And Anakin replies with, "That's not true! That's impossible!" I remember it being in one of the various behind the scenes making-of books that came out around the time of Episode III.

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?



Chairman Capone posted:

Lucas actually did originally have dialogue later in the movie in the scene where Palpatine confesses to Anakin that he's the Sith Lord, where Palpatine adds that he created Anakin through the Force and "You might say... I am your father." And Anakin replies with, "That's not true! That's impossible!" I remember it being in one of the various behind the scenes making-of books that came out around the time of Episode III.
Yeah that whole theater scene always came off to me as 'I'm admitting I am your father without actually saying it outloud'

I have less of a problem with that then this whole idea that Palpatine's clone fucks and creates Rey somehow (also the clone thing isn't even really in the movie, that is just what Lucasfilm is now saying after the fact).

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Anime Deviant

Antifa Poltergeist posted:

This bullshit in all media that everyone is connected and gosh the hero who started has a nobody is actually the secret nephew of previous hero is some reactionary monarchist bullshit.
Not only is the hero special, his entire bloodline to the 10th generation is special.its escapism fantasy for failsons.
That's one of the worst things to happen to series that run on too long and it's terrible that they narrow the scope of the world so much by relying on it.

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

Schwarzwald posted:

All the birth symbolism is meant to drive home that Anakin feels guilty for impregnating his wife, what with his marriage being verboten and his prophesying her death during childbirth and all.

The read that Palpatine is secretly confessing to being Anakin's father or whatever also misses the point he's trying to make with the story. He's comparing the Jedi Order with Plageuis, and suggesting that Anakin would be in the right to turn against them. It's only after Anakin asks if magic keeping-people-alive-powers are real that Sheevy switches gears.

It's kind of weak to put that out there just to make that point. If you have an immaculate conception and then later have an evil wizard say that actually the immaculate conception was caused by his spell, it feels a bit like a bait and switch to then go nope, just a regular immaculate conception like we said earlier.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink

Grendels Dad posted:

It's kind of weak to put that out there just to make that point. If you have an immaculate conception and then later have an evil wizard say that actually the immaculate conception was caused by his spell, it feels a bit like a bait and switch to then go nope, just a regular immaculate conception like we said earlier.

The evil wizard very pointedly doesn't say that, though.

Like, here's the how the scene goes: Palp tells Anakin that the Jedi don't trust him, and are purposely keeping their power to themselves rather than sharing it with him. Palp tell Anakin the Jedi are going to betray the Republic in a bid to maintain their own power. Palp says the Jedi and the Sith are pretty much the same. Then he tells a story about a cool old Sith dude who tried to live forever only to be thwarted by his heir. The moral being that when somebody selfishly keeps power for themselves (like the Jedi) its understandable that the upcoming generation (like Anakin) would object (by killing them). When Anakin asks him "hey, was any of that magic poo poo in that story actually real?" Palp replies, "uhh, maybe it could be real, but if it was the Jedi wouldn't let you have it (so you should kill them)."

Palp doesn't imply any relation or appeal to any sense of familial devotion.

The immaculate conception connection is certainly there, and I'd be willing to believe there was an earlier version of the story where it played a part. But if so, its been so well removed that all that's left are threads that don't really lead anywhere. I get the urge to try and make it all fit, but you can't really do that without overlooking the context and the character's motivations.

Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 17:25 on May 6, 2020

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

Schwarzwald posted:

The evil wizard very pointedly doesn't say that, though.

Like, here's the how the scene goes: Palp tells Anakin that the Jedi don't trust him, and are purposely keeping their power to themselves rather than sharing it with him. Palp tell Anakin the Jedi are going to betray the Republic in a bid to maintain their own power. Palp says the Jedi and the Sith are pretty much the same. Then he tells a story a cool old Sith dude who tried to live forever only to be thwarted by his heir. The moral being that when somebody selfishly keeps power for themselves (like the Jedi) its understandable that the upcoming generation (like Anakin) would object (by killing them). When Anakin asks him "hey, was any of that magic poo poo in that story actually real?" Palp replies, "uhh, maybe it could be real, but if it was the Jedi wouldn't let you have it (so you should kill them)."

Palp doesn't imply any relation or appeal to any sense of familial devotion.

The immaculate conception connection is certainly there, and I'd be willing to believe there was an earlier version of the story where it played a part. But if so, its been well removed and all that's left are threads that don't really lead anywhere. I get the urge to try and make it all fit, but you can't really do that without overlooking the context and the character's motivations.

Right, it must have played a part because it would be a weird thing to bring up out of nowhere. That there are threads leading nowhere is exactly what feels off about the scene, because it feels like an answer to a question the movies aren't interested in even asking, i.e. Anakin's father. It's a great scene though, and I like that the point about the fatherhood doesn't even occur to Anakin himself.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN

Grendels Dad posted:

It's a great scene though, and I like that the point about the fatherhood doesn't even occur to Anakin himself.

It doesn’t occur to Anakin because that’s not what’s being said. Palpatine is merely using Anakin’s virgin birth as proof that these God-powers exist and are theoretically obtainable.

He’s literally just saying “your mom got knocked up by God, and we know the exact mechanism He used, so figuring out resurrection/immortality should be fairly easy.”

PriorMarcus
Oct 17, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT BEING ALLERGIC TO POSITIVITY

Does Anakin even know he was immaculately conceived?

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
I still like the idea that creating and preserving life is specifically a Dark Side power, while becoming a ghost is a Light Side one. The Sith try to stave off death desperately while the Jedi transcend it.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN

PriorMarcus posted:

Does Anakin even know he was immaculately conceived?

Why wouldn’t he?

Red Bones
Aug 9, 2012

"I think he's a bad enough person to stay ghost through his sheer love of child-killing."

I think the thing about the opera scene is that Anakin's whole arc in the prequels is of someone who is ruined by doubt (or fear). This is a very intentional parallel to how he is eventually redeemed by hope, and how his son does not repeat his mistakes. Like people ( fairly) criticise the writing of these films but this theme or arc in the prequels is very intentional and very obvious.

So the opera scene plays into that by having the villain cast doubt on one of the character's core aspects, that (some of) the jedi believe he is the chosen one. What if he was just created by a sith? What if the prophecy was also just a lie? The point is almost not to show Anakin (and the audience) that he was doomed all along, but just to push him further into doubt imo.

Because there is no prophecy in the original films, the whole arc of the character actually works a bit better in this sense as saying something about hope and faith. You don't get a clear answer that the prophecy was true - but through hope in the face of doubt, the heroes ultimately overcome evil.

Pope Corky the IX
Dec 18, 2006


🎵 I'm blue
Yeah I'm a blue Shrek, guy
Step a foot in my swamp
And you're gonna die 🎵
So I haven't seen a Star Wars film since Attack of the Clones when it was in theaters and reading through all this poo poo over the last five years has been loving hysterical.

X-Ray Pecs
May 11, 2008

New York
Ice Cream
TV
Travel
~Good Times~

Ghost Leviathan posted:

I still like the idea that creating and preserving life is specifically a Dark Side power, while becoming a ghost is a Light Side one. The Sith try to stave off death desperately while the Jedi transcend it.

At least until The Rise of Skywalker lmao

Iron Crowned
May 6, 2003

by Hand Knit

Pope Corky the IX posted:

So I haven't seen a Star Wars film since Attack of the Clones when it was in theaters and reading through all this poo poo over the last five years has been loving hysterical.

Yeah, I'd say Rogue One, is alright, and TFA isn't great, but just pretend the rest doesn't exist.

PeterCat
Apr 8, 2020

Believe women.

PriorMarcus posted:

Does Anakin even know he was immaculately conceived?

This has been bugging me this whole thread.

The Immaculate Conception refers to the Virgin Mary who was conceived without Original Sin. Her conception was the regular physical kind, her parents had sex and she was conceived, but through God's intervention she was free from the sin of Adam which taints all of humanity. This made her a pure, sinless vessel for bearing the Son of God.

The Virgin Birth refers to Jesus' birth, as Mary conceived with the Holy Spirit and became pregnant without sexual intercourse. There was no physical, human father, rather, she was impregnated through the will of God.

When talking about Annakin's conception and birth via the Force, it's more appropriate to use the term "Virgin Birth" as Schmi did not have sex with a man, she was made pregnant by the Force, possibly under the control of Darth Plagueis.

pospysyl
Nov 10, 2012



NB: The idea that the Immaculate Conception is the conception of Christ is actually more of a mis-conception. It's actually the conception of Mary, the only human born without original sin.

Edit: Spent too long working on that pun.

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?



Pope Corky the IX posted:

So I haven't seen a Star Wars film since Attack of the Clones when it was in theaters and reading through all this poo poo over the last five years has been loving hysterical.
You haven’t missed much

But I would watch Rogue One if for no other reason than it is a one-off story and that makes it better than the final prequel and the three films in the new trilogy

Pope Corky the IX
Dec 18, 2006


🎵 I'm blue
Yeah I'm a blue Shrek, guy
Step a foot in my swamp
And you're gonna die 🎵
Hahaha, wait, what? Anakin didn't actually have sex with Padme? She got pregnant through the Force? Are you loving kidding me?

X-Ray Pecs
May 11, 2008

New York
Ice Cream
TV
Travel
~Good Times~
Counterpoint: Rogue One is very boring because the writing (especially for the character) is extremely bland, but futhermore it's ridiculous to call it a one-off story when every part of it is designed to tie into existing Star Wars movies. The whole thing is based off a couple throwaway lines from A New Hope! They reanimated Peter Cushing so Grand Moff Tarkin could be all over the movie! It ends literally right where A New Hope begins!

The MSJ
May 17, 2010

Pope Corky the IX posted:

Hahaha, wait, what? Anakin didn't actually have sex with Padme? She got pregnant through the Force? Are you loving kidding me?

No, Anakin's mom did. Anakin and Padme hosed, which is why the Jedi doesn't like him.

Edit:
Kanan in Rebels also hosed and instead of becoming a Sith he heroically sacrificed himself. So we are probably right to blame the Jedi Order for the whole Anakin situation. That said, Anakin also sacrificed himself.

The MSJ fucked around with this message at 15:07 on May 6, 2020

Jose Oquendo
Jun 20, 2004

Star Trek: The Motion Picture is a boring movie

X-Ray Pecs posted:

Counterpoint: Rogue One is very boring because the writing (especially for the character) is extremely bland, but futhermore it's ridiculous to call it a one-off story when every part of it is designed to tie into existing Star Wars movies. The whole thing is based off a couple throwaway lines from A New Hope! They reanimated Peter Cushing so Grand Moff Tarkin could be all over the movie! It ends literally right where A New Hope begins!

A New Hope: Well, we think we found a weakness. It's a long shot. One in a million. We're gonna give it our best shot. It's the only one we have.

Rogue One: I intentionally put a weakness in the Death Star so it could in fact be destroyed with this one neat trick.

Rogue One is so loving bad. BUT IT"S GOT DARTH VADER DOING SOMETHING COOL AT THE END.

Pope Corky the IX
Dec 18, 2006


🎵 I'm blue
Yeah I'm a blue Shrek, guy
Step a foot in my swamp
And you're gonna die 🎵

The MSJ posted:

No, Anakin's mom did. Anakin and Padme hosed, which is why the Jedi doesn't like him.

Edit:
Kanan in Rebels also hosed and instead of becoming a Sith he heroically sacrificed himself. So we are probably right to blame the Jedi Order for the whole Anakin situation. That said, Anakin also sacrificed himself.

I can't tell if that's better or worse.

ANOTHER SCORCHER
Aug 12, 2018

Ghost Leviathan posted:

I still like the idea that creating and preserving life is specifically a Dark Side power, while becoming a ghost is a Light Side one. The Sith try to stave off death desperately while the Jedi transcend it.

This is a great idea/theme that is also of course undermined by the sequel trilogy, where it is now a light side power to drain lifeforce from some people and give it to others.

got any sevens
Feb 9, 2013

by Cyrano4747

Jose Oquendo posted:

A New Hope: Well, we think we found a weakness. It's a long shot. One in a million. We're gonna give it our best shot. It's the only one we have.

Rogue One: I intentionally put a weakness in the Death Star so it could in fact be destroyed with this one neat trick.

Rogue One is so loving bad. BUT IT"S GOT DARTH VADER DOING SOMETHING COOL AT THE END.

Vader's dad jokes were the best part
And the criminally underused forrest whitaker

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe

Jose Oquendo posted:

A New Hope: Well, we think we found a weakness. It's a long shot. One in a million. We're gonna give it our best shot. It's the only one we have.

Rogue One: I intentionally put a weakness in the Death Star so it could in fact be destroyed with this one neat trick.

Rogue One is so loving bad. BUT IT"S GOT DARTH VADER DOING SOMETHING COOL AT THE END.

Yea the whole idea that the Death Star has a design flaw that just wasn't recognized because of how massive a project it was and how many people were involved always rang very true to me. Changing it into a secret rebel plot from the beginning is just another way that the Disney Star Wars films really made the whole universe feel so much smaller than it did before.

Lobok
Jul 13, 2006

Say Watt?

Love the idea of applying the intentional flaw of the Death Star to other things. Like man, a tank is a bad design because what if an enemy parachutes in from above and curves a tiny boomerang made of C4 through the air and straight down the barrel of the cannon?

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.
There was the chance for a bit of fun by making the design flaw something else than what the rebels end up exploiting. Like, if an astronaut with a pickax lands in *that* exact spot he will be able to work his way straight down to the core without enemy forces able to get to him... it'll just take a while.

Lobok
Jul 13, 2006

Say Watt?

Grendels Dad posted:

There was the chance for a bit of fun by making the design flaw something else than what the rebels end up exploiting. Like, if an astronaut with a pickax lands in *that* exact spot he will be able to work his way straight down to the core without enemy forces able to get to him... it'll just take a while.

I've designed the Death Star such that it will be extra susceptible if the Rebels realize they can sacrifice a capital ship and light-speed it through the centre.

BaldDwarfOnPCP
Jun 26, 2019

by Pragmatica
I mean it’s the size of a moon. How are you not going to have a vent? Stormtroopers need A/C

Avalerion
Oct 19, 2012

Palp being Anakin's father thing was confirmed in a comic or something. No idea how "canonical" this is/was but...

X-Ray Pecs
May 11, 2008

New York
Ice Cream
TV
Travel
~Good Times~

Basebf555 posted:

Yea the whole idea that the Death Star has a design flaw that just wasn't recognized because of how massive a project it was and how many people were involved always rang very true to me. Changing it into a secret rebel plot from the beginning is just another way that the Disney Star Wars films really made the whole universe feel so much smaller than it did before.

It also feels weirdly mild to take the "many Bothan spies died for this" line and turn it into a whole planet getting Death Star'd. The one-liner presents so much more intrigue than the blockbuster film generates.

MechanicalTomPetty
Oct 30, 2011

Runnin' down a dream
That never would come to me

X-Ray Pecs posted:

It also feels weirdly mild to take the "many Bothan spies died for this" line and turn it into a whole planet getting Death Star'd. The one-liner presents so much more intrigue than the blockbuster film generates.

If there is one thing I have learned over the years it is that nerds will endlessly obsess over the most inane details and random minutiae unless it is shown, explained and catalogued in excruciating detail. And the studios are more than happy to feed into that obsession if it means they get to milk an existing franchise for a little bit longer.

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009

X-Ray Pecs posted:

It also feels weirdly mild to take the "many Bothan spies died for this" line and turn it into a whole planet getting Death Star'd. The one-liner presents so much more intrigue than the blockbuster film generates.

That was for the second Death Star - in the Disney canon they've yet to answer exactly who or what a Bothan is, or what happened to them (presumably so they can save it for some hypothetical Rogue Two).

Codependent Poster
Oct 20, 2003

Avalerion posted:

Palp being Anakin's father thing was confirmed in a comic or something. No idea how "canonical" this is/was but...



That wasn't a sequence of what actually happened, but I believe it was Anakin thinking how it might have happened.

SomeJazzyRat
Nov 2, 2012

Hmmm...
No, you misheard, it was Manny Bothans who died. Just one guy. Super cool, had a jet car and a pool table.

So I just googled, cause I'm pretty sure I stole that joke, and apparently there was a semi-non-canon comic where there was a Manny Bothans. Joke comic, but still, Jesus Christ Star Wars.

duz
Jul 11, 2005

Come on Ilhan, lets go bag us a shitpost


That comic was a Star Wars version of Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead and was firmly tongue in cheek.

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009

The characters from that comic were in a deleted scene in Solo (and mentioned by name in the novelization) , so they're arguably more canon than they used to be.

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WeedlordGoku69
Feb 12, 2015

by Cyrano4747

Robot Style posted:

The characters from that comic were in a deleted scene in Solo (and mentioned by name in the novelization) , so they're arguably more canon than they used to be.

There's also two characters in Mandalorian who are very conspicuously not named who are probably meant to be Tag and Bink cameos.

The Tag and Bink comics are loving hilarious, by the way, and given they're explicitly comedy books that go as ridiculous with it as possible, I'm not really comfortable putting stuff like Manny Bothans in the "jfc Star Wars" category.

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