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Xander77 posted:Oh hey. We finally have an excuse to connect the Sopranos to "Trump's America". I mean its not just Trump, but it absolutely crosses my mine. It also ties into other characters, like on/in GoT with Jaime and Ceresi. They both have similar dilemma's of do I take this tragedy and become a better person/ try to do the right thing and choose different paths. I just wish it was better handled in the show. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 01:37 on May 8, 2020 |
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May 8, 2020 01:03
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You know... I've never actually watched Mad Men before...  Ishamael posted:I remember David Chase making a lot of these same complaints, he was so mad that people wanted Tony's blood after so long, as though he hadn't spent 7 years slowly and methodically convincing everyone that Tony was irredeemable and evil, and that the parts of him you loved and cheered for were dead or dying. A big part of the issue I have is that the audience (I'm generalizing, obviously) were approaching it from a meta "the show is ending so the comeuppance HAS to come now" - that it was okay for Tony to be punished/killed/arrested whatever because the show's ending and therefore it's fine to stop rooting for Tony and start rooting against him. For some shows that is a perfectly acceptable response, Vic Mackey on The Shield I think is a great example because almost the entire show's run is about him trying to escape the consequences of his actions, and an exploration of how hollow his "triumph" eventually is. For The Sopranos though, it felt off to me that people were so ready to condemn Tony. It wasn't like he wasn't a monster right from the get-go, his first episode he runs down a guy and beats him up, then later has him threatened with murder etc - but everybody was more than eager to see him succeed. I mean, it's understandable, you make the protagonist relatable and engaging and of course people are going to root for him. But I did think (and was guilty myself) that it was a little hypocritical to assume we get to have our cake and eat it too by thrilling to his escapades and then assuming he'll get punished for them once we can no longer be along for the ride. On the flip side, Chase really did hammer home in the last season in particular just how horrible a person Tony was. So it is a little precious of me to condemn people for feeling like there would be a narrative pay-off for him becoming more obviously detached and uncaring about people previously close to him. That wasn't the story Chase was telling, but it is a story that was being told I guess is the point I'm laboring to make. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 01:41 on May 8, 2020 |
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May 8, 2020 01:37
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Boardwalk Empire was one of those things where I feel like I'm supposed to like it more than I do. All the elements are there and the performances and everything are fine but there was no..I dunno...heat to it or something. It checked all the boxes for prestige television but just didn't land. Hard to put my finger on but I feel the same way about certain films like Apocalypse Now, 2001 and most David Lynch movies - poo poo I SHOULD like and know is good but just don't resonate for some reason. I'd totally forgotten about that show and seem to remember enjoying it well enough when it aired but I was never hooked or compelled to make time for it like I was the Sopranos, The Wire or Six Feet Under. From the sound of it, I guess I should maybe finally watch The Shield and Mad Men, yes? ... Getting back to The Blue Comet for minute, one thing that stood out to me in this episode was how flashy and dramatically directed Bobby's death was; what with the train crash, the build up fast cuts and the close ups on the little men and poo poo. The show didn't do much of that and usually when someone got clipped or shot it was rather abrupt and to the point. Trying to think of another killing that had that sort of directorial flare to it and coming up empty. Usually, it's just *bang* or, at most, a visceral fight scene if no gun is involved.
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May 8, 2020 01:41
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Boardwalk reaches its peak in the Bobby Cannavale season and it never really quite got it right again after that, sadly. The ending was also a real downer, and hit some beats I really felt went completely against the flow of the show up to that point.BiggerBoat posted:Getting back to The Blue Comet for minute, one thing that stood out to me in this episode was how flashy and dramatically directed Bobby's death was; what with the train crash, the build up fast cuts and the close ups on the little men and poo poo. The show didn't do much of that and usually when someone got clipped or shot it was rather abrupt and to the point. Trying to think of another killing that had that sort of directorial flare to it and coming up empty. It really stands out given it's followed by the Silvio scene too. That's shot completely differently, and the slow-mo stuff feels like a misstep. It's a lot more chaotic which seems deliberate, but it throws in too much at once what with the bike crash and the guy getting run over and the crowd reacting etc. It almost veers into comedy, it kind of feels like two completely different directors put together both scenes.
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May 8, 2020 02:11
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Jerusalem posted:You know... I've never actually watched Mad Men before... FWIW, despite feeling like Tony earned whatever label we might want to put on him (by nature or choice), I was always in the wanting him to be okay at the end camp, so sticking him with a label isn't about wanting to right the scales of justice or anything to me. There was another show that did seem to go out of its way to punish its protagonist at the end where it felt super on the nose Boardwalk Empire, where it felt like maybe a response against Chase not explicitly doing that (don't know how to hint what the show is without spoiling it for everyone, so mouse over at your own risk), and I loving hated it. There's probably an argument to be made that sympathizing with murderers isn't ideal (Breaking Bad's fans and creators had a lot of back and forth about that, where some fans seemed to identify too strongly with Walt in pretty toxic ways), but I do at least think the whole turning off that sympathy like a switch at the end of a show's run and needing to always see long delayed justice applied is way too black and white (and convenient) to feel true. BiggerBoat posted:Boardwalk Empire was one of those things where I feel like I'm supposed to like it more than I do. Bobby Cannavale was phenomenal, but yeah otherwise I just don't think it lived up to the expectations anyone had for it given that it was inevitably going to be compared to The Sopranos given who made it and for what network. BiggerBoat posted:From the sound of it, I guess I should maybe finally watch The Shield and Mad Men, yes? Mad Men for sure. The Shield relies a bit more on suspense than I really like these days, and might feel a bit dated otherwise since it was basically the first big premium basic cable show (and I think watching dirty cops do awful things is a lot more uncomfortable for many of us now than it was at the time), but I do have to say it builds toward an ending like no other show I've ever seen. BiggerBoat posted:Getting back to The Blue Comet for minute, one thing that stood out to me in this episode was how flashy and dramatically directed Bobby's death was; what with the train crash, the build up fast cuts and the close ups on the little men and poo poo. The show didn't do much of that and usually when someone got clipped or shot it was rather abrupt and to the point. Trying to think of another killing that had that sort of directorial flare to it and coming up empty. I think that was partially twisting the knife to make us feel bad. We were meant to sympathize with Bobby as the closest thing to a decent guy on the crew, and putting him in what's basically a toy store (where the owner specifically thinks his kid will enjoy it with him, even if that's not true) leans hard on that relative innocence. Prolonging the scene just gives us more time to feel bad about his fate.
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May 8, 2020 02:11
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people really misuse jumping the shark as a term and concept nowadays, but i can firmly say with full confidence that boardwalk empire jumped the shark after the incest episode
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May 8, 2020 02:20
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Jerusalem posted:You know... I've never actually watched Mad Men before... Daaaaaaamn, dude. Time to rectify that, even if you don't throw down 5,000 word write-ups of every episode. Mad Men: Oh, so Matthew Weiner was the guy in the Sopranos writer's room who was good at interpersonal conflict and ennui, but probably didn't really care about long-term plotting. Boardwalk Empire: Ohhh, so Terence Winter understood the allure of crime and the machinations of who's whacking who, but maybe didn't have the best handle on the personal motivations of the characters involved. Both very good, very watchable shows. But only one felt substantial in the end. (The other big difference: Boardwalk was a gorgeous show, with costumes, location shooting/a ridiculous amount of environmental CGI, and its own multimillion dollar centerpiece boardwalk set. Mad Men managed to feel expensive, but it put most of its basic cable budget towards period-accurate costuming, then a handful of rich sets where ~80% of the scenes takes place. When you are somewhere other than the Sterling-Cooper offices or a lead character's home/apartment, it's a big deal.) Jerusalem posted:Boardwalk reaches its peak in the Bobby Cannavale season and it never really quite got it right again after that, sadly. The ending was also a real downer, and hit some beats I really felt went completely against the flow of the show up to that point. I thought that was the show coming into its own, and Season 4 continued on that path - when they finally managed to balance tawdry pay-cable thrills and solid storytelling - and then they opted for the truncated Season 5, skipping over the bulk of Prohibition in the process*. I think the show was always headed towards a downbeat ending, given the subject matter/history itself - but piling so many comeuppances into 8 episodes made it feel like a punitive parade. And what did we get in return? Fuckin' Vinyl. Good God. *(seriously, you get MIchael Stuhlbarg to play Arnold Rothstein, then just...don't let him have a "Rothstein overreaches, knows he's going to die" arc?) JethroMcB fucked around with this message at 06:31 on May 8, 2020 |
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May 8, 2020 05:01
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I just watched Made in America and the weird thing I didn't remember previously is there is just a ton of short clips of different songs in that episode before the Don't Stop Believing. It feels like you get 15 seconds of 20 different songs.
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May 8, 2020 05:09
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I’d be super stoked if Jerusalem did a Mad Men run through.
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May 8, 2020 05:32
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I tried a few episodes of mad men but it felt very, I dunno, up it's own rear end. Like "Gee boy isnt this some Amazing Prestige TV!?"
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May 8, 2020 06:21
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Ungratek posted:I’d be super stoked if Jerusalem did a Mad Men run through. Yeah mad men is absolutely About Stuff and is very rewarding to dig into.
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May 8, 2020 06:25
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jd-KWVZjEM Perfect way to finish an episode.
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May 8, 2020 10:58
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I think Mad Men is a great project for Jerusalem next, because of the strength of Jon Hamm’s central performance. He doesn’t carry it, but he’s a very strong foundation, like Gandolfini in The Sopranos. Although The Shield is a great show (nothing made matches it for ‘rising action’ over its whole run), it jumps about a lot to keep your attention, and ‘relies on suspense’ is an astute criticism. It doesn’t try for resonance, and it’s very light on meaningful themes, whereas Mad Men has some real show-stoppers and heartbreakers. Unless he’s a recently recovering smoker or drinker, in which case don’t watch it.
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May 8, 2020 11:44
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banned from Starbucks posted:I tried a few episodes of mad men but it felt very, I dunno, up it's own rear end. Like "Gee boy isnt this some Amazing Prestige TV!?" It’s exceptionally well made, but a pretty long haul. The longer you watch it, the more the ‘look how well we made this’ feeling will disappear, to be replaced by the ‘why isn’t everything this good’ feeling, familiar to watchers of The Sopranos and The Wire.
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May 8, 2020 12:30
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toggle posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jd-KWVZjEM Yeah I should have added in a link, I love the music on this show and this one in particular really captured the melancholy of Tony alone in that bedroom. It's kind of a neat parallel to being Kevin Finnerty in that hotel room in his coma, where he finds himself separated from his family and wondering how he got into this mess and how the hell he's going to get himself out of it.   There's certainly no beacon of light to be seen from the latter room.
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May 8, 2020 13:54
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Jerusalem posted:You know... I've never actually watched Mad Men before... I think that Chase conflated people wanting there to be a definitive, satisfying end to his story with people thinking "he must be punished". I think he was adding the moralizing aspect, I don't remember people wanting Tony to necessarily lose or die, just to have a strong ending. I know for me I was the most interested in the ending because it felt like that would be the final note in the song, the step that would tie everything together. A great ending, in my mind, takes all the disparate elements of a huge work like this, and comments on it in a way that brings a new color to everything that has come before. If Tony fails at the end, then this was a story of his hubris and many mistakes. If he succeeds, then it becomes an indictment of the type of system that allows such a cruel man to win. If he wins at one part of his life but loses in another, then it becomes a story about whether that trade-off was worth it, and the moral compromises we all make. When a story nails its ending, it elevates the whole piece. And for a show like this that had already created such a high bar, a perfect ending would not only give us that final lens to view the character through, it would also take it to the level of all-time great American myths. Since that is the way I approach storytelling in general, I think you can guess my thoughts on the ending we got.
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May 8, 2020 14:44
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Torquemada posted:It’s exceptionally well made, but a pretty long haul. The longer you watch it, the more the ‘look how well we made this’ feeling will disappear, to be replaced by the ‘why isn’t everything this good’ feeling, familiar to watchers of The Sopranos and The Wire. I will try it again esp if J-dog picks it for the next series.
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May 8, 2020 15:08
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Torquemada posted:It’s exceptionally well made, but a pretty long haul. The longer you watch it, the more the ‘look how well we made this’ feeling will disappear, to be replaced by the ‘why isn’t everything this good’ feeling, familiar to watchers of The Sopranos and The Wire. I tried it as well, and bailed after the first season. The quality was high but man, everyone on that show is miserable and watching them made me miserable.
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May 8, 2020 15:22
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My favorite thing about mad men is that somehow it makes you end up rooting for Pete Campbell, who is also a disgusting toad.
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May 8, 2020 15:52
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My own personal vote is Justified, but I don't particularly need a reason to re-watch it so I can do that on my own.
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May 8, 2020 15:53
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Dawgstar posted:My own personal vote is Justified, but I don't particularly need a reason to re-watch it so I can do that on my own. I loved that show so much. It's been said before, but I think season two of Justified is pretty close to some of the best TV ever made.
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May 8, 2020 15:56
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Solice Kirsk posted:I loved that show so much. It's been said before, but I think season two of Justified is pretty close to some of the best TV ever made. Yeah. I think the only thing that's challenged Mags Bennett as an antagonist on TV is Ellstin Limehouse.
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May 8, 2020 16:20
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Quarles was a lot of fun too. And Dewie Crow was just fantastic through out. drat it, now I wanna watch through it again. Got a forced vacation coming up in a couple of weeks, so maybe I'll do it then.
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May 8, 2020 16:59
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Depending on Jerusalem's taste I'd actually want to see something other then another "critically discussed and endlessly reviewed series" that's been done to death on many places online. I'd prefer a sci-fi series like Farscape or Babylon 5, but those 22 episode seasons are a pretty big task for a whole series. Maybe a first season review or something. Battlestar Galactica is closer in format to all the other serious shows listed and its been a decade since it finished.
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May 8, 2020 17:42
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I watched Justified, but didn’t get much out of it apart from ‘this was a good entertaining show I enjoyed watching’. If J-Bone wants to have something simpler as a palate cleanser, Justified would do.
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May 8, 2020 17:42
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My opinion on Mad Men is I watched it and liked it but it's absolutely not fun enough to rewatch.
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May 8, 2020 17:56
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Ishamael posted:I think that Chase conflated people wanting there to be a definitive, satisfying end to his story with people thinking "he must be punished". I think he was adding the moralizing aspect, I don't remember people wanting Tony to necessarily lose or die, just to have a strong ending. I know for me I was the most interested in the ending because it felt like that would be the final note in the song, the step that would tie everything together. I think that's a fair point about Chase possibly railing against strawmen with that argument. Maybe critics were more vocal about wanting some kind of justice, but I think a whole bunch of viewers were just enjoying the show and wanted Tony to win. It's hard to say though since normal people were less Extremely Online back then. I agree with what you said about people wanting some sort of closure too though. Obviously Pine Barrens is a big example of that, and of Chase telling them to gently caress off.
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May 8, 2020 18:05
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Next show should be Under the Dome.
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May 8, 2020 21:34
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Torquemada posted:I watched Justified, but didn’t get much out of it apart from ‘this was a good entertaining show I enjoyed watching’. If J-Bone wants to have something simpler as a palate cleanser, Justified would do. I mean yeah Justified was good for exchanges like this  "Aaah Raylan, you shot me in the back!?" "Well if you wanted to get shot in the front you should have been running towards me"but I don't know if it deserves a deep dive breakdown of each and every scene.
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May 8, 2020 22:09
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All votes have to come with bids now. I bid $50 on Twin Peaks: The Return. Blue Comet random thoughts: - Never really made the connection between Godfather door close and Melfi's, but it seems so obvious now - That Carmela line, "do compassion and patience come naturally to her?" - I had the same expression as Tony. What the gently caress are you saying Carm? - "Bobby hears it happening. The gun fires, hitting him several times but not killing him. Bobby stumbles back. The owner cowers. Children scream. The model figures fixed painted stares no longer look wonderstruck but horrified." (Love this prose)
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May 8, 2020 22:27
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Jerusalem posted:Yeah I should have added in a link, I love the music on this show and this one in particular really captured the melancholy of Tony alone in that bedroom. It's kind of a neat parallel to being Kevin Finnerty in that hotel room in his coma, where he finds himself separated from his family and wondering how he got into this mess and how the hell he's going to get himself out of it. Nope. But there IS a door that they zoom in on. What do you think this is showing us? I have my own ideas but you're really good at noticing poo poo that I don't and it's strange that you lean more towards "isn't that interesting?" rather than do your normal Deep Dive. Chase has been clear that "everything is right there" and he certainly doesn't do anything by accident. These parallels are all there for a reason. You also ignored/missed the assault rifle that's featured very prominently in this shot. The birthday gift he gave to Bobby in Ep 1 of this season where we're practically given a premonition shoved down out throats about how it feels to die by gunshot - in the same episode where Bobby gets killed in atypically dramatic fashion for this show. Sorry if any of that sounds like harsh criticism. It's not meant to be, I assure you, because your write ups are loving fantastic and also sorry if I'm jumping the gun (heh) on what all this symbolism means related to the finale. loving LOL at all of us begging you to keep writing. Compile your poo poo into a book, J, and get paid for your great work. I'm also a member of The Never Watched Mad Men crowd. Do I need to fix that?
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May 8, 2020 23:34
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Yeah. It’s good
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May 9, 2020 00:09
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BiggerBoat posted:You also ignored/missed the assault rifle that's featured very prominently in this shot. The birthday gift he gave to Bobby in Ep 1 of this season where we're practically given a premonition shoved down out throats about how it feels to die by gunshot - in the same episode where Bobby gets killed in atypically dramatic fashion for this show. I did mention it, though I didn't go much deeper into it beyond noting it trigger's Tony's memory of his conversation with Bobby about death, which I feel is also the first time Tony actually stops moving once everything happens and lets it all sink in: Bobby's dead, he's REALLY dead. I love how Tony almost cradles it like a security blanket in lieu of everything else he's had to leave behind re: family. Stuff like the door I'll focus more on when it comes to the final scene of the show, especially in regards to the "family reunion" from Mayham.
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May 9, 2020 01:30
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If we're sticking with HBO I'd like to see Band of Brothers. But I guess there's not really much deep stuff there to dig into. I just want to rewatch Band of Brothers, I think.
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May 9, 2020 02:06
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Lemon posted:I just want to rewatch Band of Brothers, I think. I have bought that entire series three times: on VHS, on DVD, on Blu Ray and I figure if they ever do an 8k release somehow I'd probably end up getting that too. It's an incredible series and I regularly rewatch it and recommend everybody else does too.
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May 9, 2020 02:13
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BiggerBoat posted:I'm also a member of The Never Watched Mad Men crowd. Do I need to fix that? It has lots of layers, it’s pretty deep in places, but as noted above, it’s not exactly fun. It does have humour, and it is entertaining, but the level of awfulness of the people and the society they live in permeates the whole show. That clean bright optimistic future you see in the advertising of the 50’s and 60’s (and by extension all advertising) is made by a bunch of gently caress-ups; racists, misogynists, homophobes, liars and cheats. Mad Men is the answer to the questions: How do these awful people have such a clear understanding of the human condition? How do they create (sometimes) art, in the service of people and businesses worse than they are?
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May 9, 2020 10:09
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Torquemada posted:It has lots of layers, it’s pretty deep in places, but as noted above, it’s not exactly fun. It does have humour, and it is entertaining, but the level of awfulness of the people and the society they live in permeates the whole show. that's nicely put
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May 9, 2020 10:19
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sebmojo posted:that's nicely put Thanks, it took me about half an hour to condense it into two legible paragraphs. I have a lot of opinions, and like to talk about them, but it takes me time to write them down in a way that makes sense to other people.
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May 9, 2020 10:26
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e: wtf was I thinking
MrMojok fucked around with this message at 00:41 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 9, 2020 12:11
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MrMojok posted:Thread has gotten really loving gross with the nonstop suggestions of what Jerusalem should do next. what is wrong with you
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May 9, 2020 12:31
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