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porfiria posted:Didn't Lucas want to have Han in Revenge of the Sith as a feral Tarzan child living with the Wookies? Which would actually fit in with Han's original backstory as imagined by Lucas, where Han was kidnapped by Space Gypsies and then rescued and raised by Wookies before joining (and failing out of) the Academy.
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May 11, 2020 20:32
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Snoke was such a failure. They barely explained where he came from or even what he was and then he died on the second movie
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May 11, 2020 20:40
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Elias_Maluco posted:Snoke was such a failure. They barely explained where he came from or even what he was and then he died on the second movie The very brief reveal of his origin in The Rise of Skywalker was one of the few good ideas in that movie, I thought.
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May 11, 2020 20:42
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I've said it before but it's strange how fans excuse Johnson's TLJ as being driven by Disney marketing/executive committees but don't extend this sympathy to Abrams . . Like it seems obvious that none of these films were trusted entirely to the filmmakers and their cast+crews, doesn't it?
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May 11, 2020 20:44
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Blood Boils posted:I've said it before but it's strange how fans excuse Johnson's TLJ as being driven by Disney marketing/executive committees but don't extend this sympathy to Abrams . . I think because watching TLJ you have what looks to be Johnson's vision that gets completely undercut at the end, so it meshes well with that narrative. The counterpoint is that Knives Out did like the same drat thing without any Disney bosses involved so idk.
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May 11, 2020 20:50
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Rian is by all accounts extremely proud of star wars 8 and wouldn't change a thing. It's the rare case where I wouldn't impute the movie's fundamental confusion to execs so much as rian's own lib nature
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May 11, 2020 20:53
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Doronin posted:I can definitely see that. Maybe, but I can't imagine Johnson upset much internally given that he was the only director post-Episode VII that wasn't replaced mid-production and even got a tentative deal to produce his own trilogy before the movie came out. Blood Boils posted:I've said it before but it's strange how fans excuse Johnson's TLJ as being driven by Disney marketing/executive committees but don't extend this sympathy to Abrams . . You're right, everything about the production of IX sounds like a gigantic clusterfuck and I can't imagine anyone was actually happy with the end result
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May 11, 2020 20:58
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It's a minor complaint but I thought sheev's cave palace was lazy. They took the throne from a mcquarrie painting and then just did the barest minimum, garden variety evil lair decor and just made it all black and blue and impossible to actually see anything. Again, it's a movie just trying to get to the end by any means necessary, and it's a bit ironic that after years of emphasizing they aren't filming everyone in a green room and painting in ten thousand spaceships with a computer that's all they had left in the tank
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May 11, 2020 20:59
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No Mods No Masters posted:Rian is by all accounts extremely proud of star wars 8 and wouldn't change a thing. It's the rare case where I wouldn't impute the movie's fundamental confusion to execs so much as rian's own lib nature As someone who liked 8 I still think Johnson's weird defensiveness online, especially pushing the Russian troll conspiracy, is loving embarrassing
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May 11, 2020 21:00
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You don't have to be a shameless lib to believe the Russian trollbots exist. How much they affected the election -- that's a whole 'nother story.
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May 11, 2020 21:12
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Rian made an all-time perfect candid window into the psyche of democrats with star wars 8, so it really couldn't be more of a chef's kiss that he embraced the russian trolls defense. Incidentally as awful as his films surely are, JJ has at least admitted his own limitations as a creative and discussed the flaws he saw in the sequel trilogy production process on numerous occasions
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May 11, 2020 21:16
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Grandpa Palpatine posted:You don't have to be a shameless lib to believe the Russian trollbots exist. I was talking about Rian pushing that there was a Russian conspiracy to drive down TLJ's RottenTomatoes audience score
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May 11, 2020 21:18
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I wonder how much of TLJ was affected by Trump actually winning partway through production
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May 11, 2020 21:26
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What's wild about the extent of TLJ's total, perfect lib fantasia is how forward looking it's proving to be. I used to think it was as though a perfect snapshot diorama of 2016 dem preoccupations, but lo the character of luke is suddenly no less utterly ripe to be read as biden than leia was to be read as hillary. Rian genuinely somehow connected with the heart of lib-dom in the collective unconscious while devising the film
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May 11, 2020 21:28
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I can see the comparison as far as Luke's role postmortem—the Good Side collectively decides to paper over his many crimes and adopt him as their totem because he's The Man Who Can Defeat The movie as a whole believes all of those things, of course.
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May 11, 2020 21:37
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There's a lot of theorizing about what 'went wrong', but it simply comes down to the decision to make every film a meta-text exclusively about Star Wars as a franchise/fandom. Episode 8 subverts [fans'] expectations [about the future of the Star Wars franchise]. It isn't, however, subversive at all in a political sense. That's the dichotomy. There's absolutely nothing in the Lucas films about "bloodlines", yet fans expected a parent twist for no reason except that Empire Strikes Back had a parent twist. So the logic goes like this: 1) "We expect that 'bloodlines' will be introduced as an extremely important thing!!! Let's speculate about possible bloodlines. Check out these videos about possible bloodlines. For years." 2) 'Bloodlines' not introduced as an important thing, at all. 3) "This is an incredible subversion of 'bloodlines'." And that all has zero real-world relevance outside of a vaguely asserted anti-monarchism(?). Jar Jar and Midichlorians are politically subversive, which is why they got negative reactions from not only Star Wars fans but garden-variety liberal audiences. Midichlorians are a direct on New Age spirituality. and Jar Jar isn't a white British woman.
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May 11, 2020 21:37
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:yet fans expected a parent twist for no reason except that Empire Strikes Back had a parent twist. To be fair, fans expected a parent twist because it was seeded in Force Awakens. But yeah, I agree that powerful, famous lineage is never established in the prequels or original trilogy as a pre-requisite to be a strong Force user. Who are Obi-Wan Kenobi's parents? Presumably Mr. and Mrs. Kenobi. Who are Yoda's parents? Mace Windu's? All unremarkable people as far as we know. Anakin's mother is a seemingly non Force sensitive slave, and he doesn't have a father at all!
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May 11, 2020 21:56
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Vader being Space Jesus is still such a stupid concept I had forgotten about it. Ugg.
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May 11, 2020 22:00
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Vader being Space Jesus is still such a stupid concept I had forgotten about it. Ugg. It's good actually.
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May 11, 2020 22:13
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Vader being Space Jesus is still such a stupid concept I had forgotten about it. Ugg. Obi-Wan is clearly Space Jesus. Get it right, sheesh!
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May 11, 2020 22:22
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Anakin doesn't have a beard Checkmate, atheists
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May 11, 2020 22:24
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General Dog posted:To be fair, fans expected a parent twist because it was seeded in Force Awakens. Untrue! Force Awakens tells us that Rey's parents left her for dead for a reason, and that reasoning is the actual mystery. It's not even that much of a mystery, because the only sensible reason to abandon a little girl is that she's dangerous. Rey is, unknowingly, some kind of living bioweapon or something. The specific identity of Rey's parents is pretty much completely irrelevant to this mystery. Did Dash Rendar abandon Rey for being a dangerous bioweapon? Did Han Solo's cousin (Greg Solo) abandon Rey for being a dangerous bioweapon? Was it a new character named Beeboo Deedoo? Who gives a poo poo? Like, "whoa, it wasn't Luke - it was a new character named Beeboo Deedoo!!!" Again, why did Beeboo Deedoo do it? What was his motive? That's the actual mystery, and all Last Jedi provides is a very uncompelling allegation: Beeboo Deedoo did it because he was morally inept due to brain problems.  To the extent that this is a subversion at all, it's subverting the implication that Rey is dangerous. "Maybe she's not dangerous. Maybe the fact that she was imprisoned as a child is totally unrelated to her incredible raw power. Deedoo didn't know about that stuff. It's all just a weird coincidence that happened for no reason." So we're left with this incredibly powerful character with anger issues, but TLJ has assured us that she is totally harmless because of her commitment to being a good guy. Her power isn't a curse; it's just another tool in our arsenal. It removes drama from the narrative. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 23:12 on May 11, 2020 |
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May 11, 2020 23:10
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General Dog posted:Everything I’ve read makes it sound like the literal, bodily return of Palpatine in ROS was a very late development. That production was so troubled that it may have been in the way it ended up happening. I tuned out of a lot of the press around that movie about 8 months prior to release, but I think there had always been some semi-baked concept to have the Emperor return somehow, some way. The seeds were planted for it all over the place in other media. But it feels like another case of they royally hosed up the execution. Blood Boils posted:I've said it before but it's strange how fans excuse Johnson's TLJ as being driven by Disney marketing/executive committees but don't extend this sympathy to Abrams . . Rogue One and Solo famously had more reshoots than original principal photography. It's incredible how much studio meddling went on. And I think there are a shitload of various cuts of TRoS. OctoberCountry posted:Maybe, but I can't imagine Johnson upset much internally given that he was the only director post-Episode VII that wasn't replaced mid-production and even got a tentative deal to produce his own trilogy before the movie came out. Great point. And he's still playing very nice and keeping a low profile as far as I've seen.
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May 11, 2020 23:58
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Doronin posted:That production was so troubled that it may have been in the way it ended up happening. I tuned out of a lot of the press around that movie about 8 months prior to release, but I think there had always been some semi-baked concept to have the Emperor return somehow, some way. The seeds were planted for it all over the place in other media. But it feels like another case of they royally hosed up the execution. I find it somewhat hard to believe they started planting the seeds in non-movie media the year TFA was released but then just forgot to put even the vaguest hints of it in either it or TLJ. Or I guess that they planned to but Rian Johnson went into a dark room for 16 months then emerged with a cut of TLJ that didn't include any of the Palpatine stuff and they just went "aww gently caress we wanted him to include that stuff! oh well!" I'm pretty sure JJ wanted an evil space wizard for his finale and the thing Johnson hosed up was killing Snoke, so JJ half-assed the Palpatine stuff to try and tie something together.
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May 12, 2020 00:36
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Doronin posted:I think there had always been some semi-baked concept to have the Emperor return somehow, some way. The seeds were planted for it all over the place in other media. But it feels like another case of they royally hosed up the execution. Colin Trevorrow's draft of Episode IX could either support or contradict this idea, depending on how you look at it. In that version, Kylo finds an old hologram of Palpatine on Mustafar that leads him to a hidden planet and a new Sith master that he eventually betrays (which sounds pretty familiar). Palpatine is basically a ten second cameo, but once Abrams took over, it's easy to see how Palpatine's role could have expanded, consolidating him with the new Sith character and rewriting the movie to make him the final boss. On the other hand, the hologram might have been Trevorrow indulging a studio request while doing as little damage to his own ideas as possible. Clearly there were tensions between what he wanted and what the studio wanted, so this may have contributed.
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May 12, 2020 01:08
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Guy A. Person posted:I find it somewhat hard to believe they started planting the seeds in non-movie media the year TFA was released but then just forgot to put even the vaguest hints of it in either it or TLJ. Or I guess that they planned to but Rian Johnson went into a dark room for 16 months then emerged with a cut of TLJ that didn't include any of the Palpatine stuff and they just went "aww gently caress we wanted him to include that stuff! oh well!" I just don't think there was really a big plan to have palpatine be alive or that lucasfilm really wanted it???? I thought all the seed planting like the stuff in BF2 was just to give a reason for The First Order to exist. Palpatine marshaling his forces in the unknown regions, and burning the known galaxy upon his death, with his creepy little holograms giving orders to empire sympathizers. It just seemed like a setup for: 1. the first order being a well armed/functioning thing 2. The potential of a new dark lord type evil character as Palp was sensing/reaching out to dark sidey stuff in the unknown reaches If you watch the behind the scenes thing for TLJ, Rian Johnson wrote the script at lucas ranch, they had tons of table reads, its pretty obvious Lucasfilm knew what he was doing with the story. I think the ROS trainwreck was mostly just around the vocal fan backlash due to everyone spending 2 years talking about all of JJ's stupid macguffin poo poo. Just endless videos speculating about who snoke is or which jedi rey is the daughter/granddaughter/clone of. Jesus christ, it was endless on youtube. Edit: And yea as above, the original draft for Ep9 flowed much more logically from TLJ.
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May 12, 2020 01:18
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Thinking about those stranded defecting troopers on the other moon of Endor, and how they effectively play the role of the ewoks in this film. Except that entire thing is set up and payed off probably entirely after the two hour mark. Bizarre
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May 12, 2020 01:21
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It's pretty funny how Rise of Skywalker really only has two scenes where people slow down and have an actual conversation that's not just shouting exposition at one another, and both of those are devoted to fleshing out useless new characters.
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May 12, 2020 02:39
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o3whTJ_CRs I don't understand how this can be so good
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May 12, 2020 02:59
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Do skip to 4:54
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May 12, 2020 03:04
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that's horrible. 'what if we made rey a YA caricature?' what if we filled the first scene of the movie with narration and flashbacks?
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May 12, 2020 03:29
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Horizon Burning posted:that's horrible. 'what if we made rey a YA caricature?' what if we filled the first scene of the movie with narration and flashbacks? Watch it all the way through
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May 12, 2020 03:57
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Jewel Repetition posted:Watch it all the way through Are Finn and Poe gay?
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May 12, 2020 04:12
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Jewel Repetition posted:Do skip to 4:54 If you skip to five minutes in, you miss that his goal is to make it more like Avengers 3 (and some sort of animes).
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May 12, 2020 04:26
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What's "so good?" Giving Rey the literal Mary Sue force power to make everyone like her? Having everyone swayed by snappy dialogue to join the good guys?
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May 12, 2020 04:34
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:If you skip to five minutes in, you miss that his goal is to make it more like Avengers 3 (and some sort of animes). It's such a loving bummer.
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May 12, 2020 04:38
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General Dog posted:It's pretty funny how Rise of Skywalker really only has two scenes where people slow down and have an actual conversation that's not just shouting exposition at one another, and both of those are devoted to fleshing out useless new characters. The scene with Han and Kylo is pretty good too.
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May 12, 2020 04:41
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Jewel Repetition posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o3whTJ_CRs That’s actually an interesting twist for Rey that could have been very good with a little bit more workshopping. Very unique concept. I finally forced myself to watch RoS over the weekend. Not sure I have anything to ad that hasn’t already been said. A powerfully disappointing waste of two and a half hours.
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May 12, 2020 04:52
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I shan't be watching because at the start of the video he suggested that Snoke dying halfway through the second movie was bad, instead of good
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May 12, 2020 04:55
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OctoberCountry posted:Maybe, but I can't imagine Johnson upset much internally given that he was the only director post-Episode VII that wasn't replaced mid-production and even got a tentative deal to produce his own trilogy before the movie came out. He still technically does. Of all the deals that Disney had announced, his is one that hasn't been announced as being scrapped like the Josh Trank (then James Mangold) Boba Fett film, or the trilogy of films from the Game of Thrones dudes. They haven't elaborated on what it will be or when it's happening, but it's never been cancelled, despite the weirdos on youtube saying otherwise. I imagine Rian is more inclined to make more Benoit Blanc films currently, but I imagine we'll get more Star Wars from Rian at some point and the anger it will cause will be hilarious to watch.
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May 12, 2020 05:41
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