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mateo360
Mar 20, 2012

TOO MANY PEOPLE MERLOCK!
ONLY ONE DIJON!

Madurai posted:

They eventually made Daffy into a long-suffering fall guy because being an rear end in a top hat to people for no reason is really Bugs' schtick.

But Bugs isn;t an rear end in a top hat for no reason. most of the time it's when someone has wronged him or trying to harm him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR1WKu4SLkg

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SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

Classic slapstick could get extremely brutal, and I think a lot of it basically died off after most TV transitioned to character-driven comedy, because if characters are persistent and don't just get reset every episode, then you can't have totally destroyed them at the end of each episode (a lot of looney tunes ended with the victim character totally losing their mind). I think there's also an aspect of modern sensibilities being much more sensitive to physical violence or abuse.

To be fair to Bugs, a lot of his cartoons set up a narrative of his victims somehow deserving what they get. Yosemite Sam's an obvious target, since there's plenty of reason to gently caress with a bandit/pirate/confederate soldier/legionary/prison guard. Elmer Fudd is a hunter trying to kill Bugs (which they developed after they figured that him being a nature photographer was not enough of an excuse to gently caress with him). That one opera singer messed with Bugs's banjo.

BioEnchanted
Aug 9, 2011

He plays for the dreamers that forgot how to dream, and the lovers that forgot how to love.
There are some cartoons that I take the opposite way to their intent, like in Tom and Jerry. Certainly Tom's often being overly harsh, but there are enough episodes in which Jerry is the rear end in a top hat and he is way worse than Tom in a very sadistic way, so often I'm kind of on Tom's side. Because Tom's defending his home from an intruder, but Jerry is just a dick who always takes way more than he needs.

Beachcomber
May 21, 2007

Another day in paradise.


Slippery Tilde

BioEnchanted posted:

There are some cartoons that I take the opposite way to their intent, like in Tom and Jerry. Certainly Tom's often being overly harsh, but there are enough episodes in which Jerry is the rear end in a top hat and he is way worse than Tom in a very sadistic way, so often I'm kind of on Tom's side. Because Tom's defending his home from an intruder, but Jerry is just a dick who always takes way more than he needs.

I mean, he is a household pest.

BioEnchanted
Aug 9, 2011

He plays for the dreamers that forgot how to dream, and the lovers that forgot how to love.
I will always love the movie Mousehunt though, it's basically a live action take on Tom and Jerry where the cat is a pair of idiots played by Nathan Lane and Lee Evans. It has a cute direct reference when they send a cat after the mouse and they do a lot of classic Tom and Jerry gags: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DkN6JhyOMU It's a demonic lunatic cat that the shelter have tried to put down multiple times but it always survives the gas.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you

BioEnchanted posted:

There are some cartoons that I take the opposite way to their intent, like in Tom and Jerry. Certainly Tom's often being overly harsh, but there are enough episodes in which Jerry is the rear end in a top hat and he is way worse than Tom in a very sadistic way, so often I'm kind of on Tom's side. Because Tom's defending his home from an intruder, but Jerry is just a dick who always takes way more than he needs.

When Jerry is being too much of a Dick they normally have Tom win in the episode.

amigolupus
Aug 25, 2017

Wasn't there also an episode where Jerry pushed Tom too far to the point that he killed himself by getting run over by a train? There was also one where Tom got dragged into hell because Jerry wouldn't forgive him (though I think this one's a dream?).

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

The only specific Looney Tunes bit I remember feeling too much for me was the "Great trick, but I can only do it once!" bit. I have gone and watched some Abbot and Costello stuff that seemed too mean to me, and with the Three Stooges I've read about how their original act of getting the poo poo beaten out of them wore the stooges down.

There's a lot less brutality in cartoons now, but I do remember Squidward getting beaten down hard enough that he tried committing suicide, which was the point where I stopped enjoying Spongebob. Also I'm glad Ren and Stimpy was cancelled and John K was fired.

BioEnchanted
Aug 9, 2011

He plays for the dreamers that forgot how to dream, and the lovers that forgot how to love.

SlothfulCobra posted:

The only specific Looney Tunes bit I remember feeling too much for me was the "Great trick, but I can only do it once!" bit. I have gone and watched some Abbot and Costello stuff that seemed too mean to me, and with the Three Stooges I've read about how their original act of getting the poo poo beaten out of them wore the stooges down.

There's a lot less brutality in cartoons now, but I do remember Squidward getting beaten down hard enough that he tried committing suicide, which was the point where I stopped enjoying Spongebob. Also I'm glad Ren and Stimpy was cancelled and John K was fired.

Yeah, some parts of Ren and Stimpy were too much simply because there was literally no reason for it, like the one where they had to try to get a pair of cheese wheels back from an ogre's feet (they'd initially convinced him that they were shoes as he was obsessed with cheese and they were trying to put him off eating them) and at one point they take a crowbar to his toenail, and it's like "That's not going to do anything useful, it's nowhere near where the cheese is you idiots". It was such pointless gross violence for no reason.

Funky Valentine
Feb 26, 2014

Dojyaa~an

I never thought Ren and Stimpy was funny, and not really because it was "too mean" but because the jokes just weren't very good.

SlothfulCobra posted:

and with the Three Stooges I've read about how their original act of getting the poo poo beaten out of them wore the stooges down.

Moe was horrified when he learned how big a toll their slapstick took on Curly.

ThermoPhysical
Dec 26, 2007



Maybe I'm thinking too deep into the Looney Tunes thing, I'll show the episodes to my roommate. He's a writer and usually goes deeper into things than I do so I'll get his take on it too.

Funky Valentine posted:

Moe was horrified when he learned how big a toll their slapstick took on Curly.

I've always heard it was just normal health decline for Curly, not something caused by slapstick?

Funky Valentine
Feb 26, 2014

Dojyaa~an

ThermoPhysical posted:

I've always heard it was just normal health decline for Curly, not something caused by slapstick?
They way I heard it is that taking the bumps Curly did accelerated a bunch of developing health problems. This I heard years ago so I'm probably misremembering.

BioEnchanted
Aug 9, 2011

He plays for the dreamers that forgot how to dream, and the lovers that forgot how to love.

ThermoPhysical posted:

Maybe I'm thinking too deep into the Looney Tunes thing, I'll show the episodes to my roommate. He's a writer and usually goes deeper into things than I do so I'll get his take on it too.


I've always heard it was just normal health decline for Curly, not something caused by slapstick?

I like overthinking things too, like I have a theory that Toontown in Who framed Roger Rabbit only works because it's in sync - Bugs, Tweety and Mickey would have killed Eddie with their gags had the trampoline guy not been there beneath them at precisely the right time. My theory is that Judge doom was able to kill his brother because Doom was out of sync with Toontown due to plotting it's demise - if he'd been in sync, someone would have come by with an umbrella and the piano would have been deflected.

drrockso20
May 6, 2013

Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

Madurai posted:

They eventually made Daffy into a long-suffering fall guy because being an rear end in a top hat to people for no reason is really Bugs' schtick.

Nah, Bugs whole point is that whoever he's antagonizing always fired the first shot, generally on the rare occasion where that isn't the case(like the Tortoise and Hare shorts) he loses instead, basically a Bugs Bunny cartoon operates off of Karma

SlothfulCobra posted:

The only specific Looney Tunes bit I remember feeling too much for me was the "Great trick, but I can only do it once!" bit. I have gone and watched some Abbot and Costello stuff that seemed too mean to me, and with the Three Stooges I've read about how their original act of getting the poo poo beaten out of them wore the stooges down.

There's a lot less brutality in cartoons now, but I do remember Squidward getting beaten down hard enough that he tried committing suicide, which was the point where I stopped enjoying Spongebob. Also I'm glad Ren and Stimpy was cancelled and John K was fired.

Yeah apparently the Stooges back in their Vaudeville days had to actually beat the poo poo out of each other for it to look and sound right, when they started doing movies and found out about Foley sounds they were downright joyful about no longer having to hit each other so hard

doomrider7
Nov 29, 2018

amigolupus posted:

Wasn't there also an episode where Jerry pushed Tom too far to the point that he killed himself by getting run over by a train? There was also one where Tom got dragged into hell because Jerry wouldn't forgive him (though I think this one's a dream?).

The train one was because he bankrupted himself trying to win a girl who was just using him who Butch won out. The episode was all the various ways he tried to win her only to be upstaged by Butch.

doomrider7
Nov 29, 2018

Funky Valentine posted:

They way I heard it is that taking the bumps Curly did accelerated a bunch of developing health problems. This I heard years ago so I'm probably misremembering.

He apparently had a love of the drink and the high life and Larry had gambling issues. Moe was apparently the full on no vices guy. Can't recall anything about Shemp.

Madurai
Jun 26, 2012

doomrider7 posted:

He apparently had a love of the drink and the high life and Larry had gambling issues. Moe was apparently the full on no vices guy. Can't recall anything about Shemp.

No one recalls anything about Shemp.

Mokinokaro
Sep 11, 2001

At the end of everything, hold onto anything



Fun Shoe

SardonicTyrant posted:

I guess that's fair, but it's really more like 4 seasons worth of episode.

The episode count was planned from the beginning.

doomrider7
Nov 29, 2018

Madurai posted:

No one recalls anything about Shemp.

I recall him being the passive aggressive one. The one I REALLY don't recall was the one who replaced him.

BigRed0427
Mar 23, 2007

There's no one I'd rather be than me.

Ok, Thats Gravity Falls down! Finally finished it and woo, loved it.

Between that and Star Vs The forces of Evil, I need a break from Disney +. I think She Ra is next.

Edit: Between the two shows I feel like Gravity Falls is the stronger one? It felt like it knew what it was throughout it's entire run and ended on the right note. Star VS straight up changes half way through and had so much stuff it could mine. It doesn't help that Star VS runs into the problem of "Hey, two or three of the other members of the supporting cast are much more interesting characters to the point where they could have their own show.

BigRed0427 fucked around with this message at 02:09 on May 14, 2020

Funky Valentine
Feb 26, 2014

Dojyaa~an

doomrider7 posted:

I recall him being the passive aggressive one. The one I REALLY don't recall was the one who replaced him.

Joe Besser, who just wasn't a good fit for the Stooges.

drrockso20
May 6, 2013

Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

doomrider7 posted:

I recall him being the passive aggressive one. The one I REALLY don't recall was the one who replaced him.

To be fair Joe Besser was only a Stooge for a couple years and his shorts never get shown anymore, and while Joe DeRita was a Stooge for a decently long time, their output was a lot less during that period(a handful of movies, the cartoon, and the occasional cameo in someone else's show or movie)

Also the other day when buying some stuff on Amazon(cause I had some credit lying around from them botching an order a couple months ago) and I came across this Scooby-Doo Encyclopedia and cause it was pretty cheap I added it to the order on a whim, the order came today and the book is actually surprisingly nice for a kids book, has basically every monster and villain in the franchise from between Where Are You and 13 Ghosts, about the only knocks on it I have are them leaving out the Red Shirt Shaggy Movies(which feels a little arbitrary), and the way it's organized(they organized it by what theme each monster falls under, I would have preferred them doing it by series), otherwise I'd highly recommend it if you're a fan of Scooby-Doo

ThermoPhysical
Dec 26, 2007



drrockso20 posted:

Also the other day when buying some stuff on Amazon(cause I had some credit lying around from them botching an order a couple months ago) and I came across this Scooby-Doo Encyclopedia and cause it was pretty cheap I added it to the order on a whim, the order came today and the book is actually surprisingly nice for a kids book, has basically every monster and villain in the franchise from between Where Are You and 13 Ghosts, about the only knocks on it I have are them leaving out the Red Shirt Shaggy Movies(which feels a little arbitrary), and the way it's organized(they organized it by what theme each monster falls under, I would have preferred them doing it by series), otherwise I'd highly recommend it if you're a fan of Scooby-Doo

https://www.amazon.com/Scooby-Doo-Encyclopedia-Benjamin-Bird/dp/1496565827 This?

doomrider7
Nov 29, 2018

BigRed0427 posted:

Ok, Thats Gravity Falls down! Finally finished it and woo, loved it.

Between that and Star Vs The forces of Evil, I need a break from Disney +. I think She Ra is next.

Edit: Between the two shows I feel like Gravity Falls is the stronger one? It felt like it knew what it was throughout it's entire run and ended on the right note. Star VS straight up changes half way through and had so much stuff it could mine. It doesn't help that Star VS runs into the problem of "Hey, two or three of the other members of the supporting cast are much more interesting characters to the point where they could have their own show.

So it wasn't just me. The supporting cast just never felt utilized AT ALL and yeah it felt like it was trying to do more than it could handle all at once. That it dwelt on the romance drama stuff for so long also didn't help.

doomrider7
Nov 29, 2018

drrockso20 posted:

To be fair Joe Besser was only a Stooge for a couple years and his shorts never get shown anymore, and while Joe DeRita was a Stooge for a decently long time, their output was a lot less during that period(a handful of movies, the cartoon, and the occasional cameo in someone else's show or movie)

Also the other day when buying some stuff on Amazon(cause I had some credit lying around from them botching an order a couple months ago) and I came across this Scooby-Doo Encyclopedia and cause it was pretty cheap I added it to the order on a whim, the order came today and the book is actually surprisingly nice for a kids book, has basically every monster and villain in the franchise from between Where Are You and 13 Ghosts, about the only knocks on it I have are them leaving out the Red Shirt Shaggy Movies(which feels a little arbitrary), and the way it's organized(they organized it by what theme each monster falls under, I would have preferred them doing it by series), otherwise I'd highly recommend it if you're a fan of Scooby-Doo

Surprising given how popular Ghoul School was. Not sure about the other two, but I liked them a great deal as well.

drrockso20
May 6, 2013

Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

Yup, that's the one

BigRed0427
Mar 23, 2007

There's no one I'd rather be than me.

doomrider7 posted:

So it wasn't just me. The supporting cast just never felt utilized AT ALL and yeah it felt like it was trying to do more than it could handle all at once. That it dwelt on the romance drama stuff for so long also didn't help.

Meteoria VS The forces of Evil WHEN DISNEY!?

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

Star Vs. the Forces of Evil was a show that took a while to figure out what it was and what it wanted to do before running out of time to do something with it, while Gravity Falls knew what it wanted to be from the very beginning, only to lose its way and the characters kinda fall to pieces and then running out of time to do whatever they had planned.

A fair amount of season 4 of Star Vs. left me disappointed, but definitely all the characters started stronger than they started, while Gravity Falls kinda refused to give any character growth. Mable actually started to get grating after there were a few too many plots of Dipper sacrificing for her while giving up nothing herself.

doomrider7 posted:

Surprising given how popular Ghoul School was. Not sure about the other two, but I liked them a great deal as well.

I don't know if Ghoul School was actually successful in its time? I'm not sure if it would've seen a big audience when it was just direct to video and before cable gave it a wider release. And if you were going to leave out a section of scooby history, the red shirt shaggy movies are probably the ones to do it from just how disconnected they were from the rest of the franchise. (RIP Shaggy's girlfriend)

At least the series with scrappy doo and real monsters kept Daphne around for some semblance of contiguity.

Mokinokaro
Sep 11, 2001

At the end of everything, hold onto anything



Fun Shoe
Gravity Falls' biggest problem was the showrunner burning out due to the stress of it being his first major project.

Alex Hirsch was fairly public online about the personal problems he was having making the show. Like he originally planned a three season run (it's obvious where the split was supposed to be in the season two we got) but cut it to two because he wasn't sure if he could keep at it that long.

Funky Valentine
Feb 26, 2014

Dojyaa~an

drrockso20 posted:

Also the other day when buying some stuff on Amazon(cause I had some credit lying around from them botching an order a couple months ago) and I came across this Scooby-Doo Encyclopedia and cause it was pretty cheap I added it to the order on a whim, the order came today and the book is actually surprisingly nice for a kids book, has basically every monster and villain in the franchise from between Where Are You and 13 Ghosts, about the only knocks on it I have are them leaving out the Red Shirt Shaggy Movies(which feels a little arbitrary), and the way it's organized(they organized it by what theme each monster falls under, I would have preferred them doing it by series), otherwise I'd highly recommend it if you're a fan of Scooby-Doo
Does it have a special page dedicated to Don Knotts?

doomrider7
Nov 29, 2018

SlothfulCobra posted:

Star Vs. the Forces of Evil was a show that took a while to figure out what it was and what it wanted to do before running out of time to do something with it, while Gravity Falls knew what it wanted to be from the very beginning, only to lose its way and the characters kinda fall to pieces and then running out of time to do whatever they had planned.

A fair amount of season 4 of Star Vs. left me disappointed, but definitely all the characters started stronger than they started, while Gravity Falls kinda refused to give any character growth. Mable actually started to get grating after there were a few too many plots of Dipper sacrificing for her while giving up nothing herself.


I don't know if Ghoul School was actually successful in its time? I'm not sure if it would've seen a big audience when it was just direct to video and before cable gave it a wider release. And if you were going to leave out a section of scooby history, the red shirt shaggy movies are probably the ones to do it from just how disconnected they were from the rest of the franchise. (RIP Shaggy's girlfriend)

At least the series with scrappy doo and real monsters kept Daphne around for some semblance of contiguity.

The follow up comic actually fixes a lot of those issues, and yeah it definetly felt like there was supposed to be a Third Season, but given how we almost didn't even get Season 2 due to burn out and other issues, I'm willing to give it some slack. Star Vs I'm rather less lenient on since there were hints as early as Season 1 and Season 2 of where they wanted some things to go, but still wasted too much time on pointless shipping stuff and filler episodes.

drrockso20
May 6, 2013

Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

Funky Valentine posted:

Does it have a special page dedicated to Don Knotts?

Unfortunately no, the only guest stars that are directly referenced in the book are Batman and Robin, Blue Falcon and Dyno-Mutt, and the Speed Buggy crew, probably because those ones they didn't have to deal with licensing for

SlothfulCobra posted:

Star Vs. the Forces of Evil was a show that took a while to figure out what it was and what it wanted to do before running out of time to do something with it, while Gravity Falls knew what it wanted to be from the very beginning, only to lose its way and the characters kinda fall to pieces and then running out of time to do whatever they had planned.

A fair amount of season 4 of Star Vs. left me disappointed, but definitely all the characters started stronger than they started, while Gravity Falls kinda refused to give any character growth. Mable actually started to get grating after there were a few too many plots of Dipper sacrificing for her while giving up nothing herself.


I don't know if Ghoul School was actually successful in its time? I'm not sure if it would've seen a big audience when it was just direct to video and before cable gave it a wider release. And if you were going to leave out a section of scooby history, the red shirt shaggy movies are probably the ones to do it from just how disconnected they were from the rest of the franchise. (RIP Shaggy's girlfriend)

At least the series with scrappy doo and real monsters kept Daphne around for some semblance of contiguity.

There was this neat idea I saw someone post once on another site that they had for a movie that would act as a sequel to all three Red Shirt Shaggy Movies at once, was actually pretty neat, I should go dig it up

Electric Phantasm
Apr 7, 2011

YOSPOS

Was giving Shaggy a red shirt an intentional design choice? Like it's weird we can point out Red Shirt Shaggy movies and know exactly which ones we are talking about.

mdct
Sep 2, 2011

Tingle tingle kooloo limpah.
These are my magic words.

Don't steal them.
You know if that era of Scooby Doo kept going we'd have gotten Pink Shirt Shaggy at some point and then in the modern day we'd start messing around with Blue Shirt Shaggy, when it becomes good again.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

I mean, we already had a weird brief spinoff with just Daphne and Velma.

TwoPair
Mar 28, 2010

Pandamn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta
Grimey Drawer

mdct posted:

You know if that era of Scooby Doo kept going we'd have gotten Pink Shirt Shaggy at some point and then in the modern day we'd start messing around with Blue Shirt Shaggy, when it becomes good again.

The Dog Called Scooby-Doo and Norville Rogers' Grave are good side series

drrockso20
May 6, 2013

Has Not Actually Done Cocaine
So I mentioned that the Scooby-Doo Encyclopedia only gives profiles to a couple guest stars, well some of the villain profiles do mention others, but it's kinda weird, some are directly referenced by name like the Three Stooges or Jeannie, while others like the Addams Family are only referenced indirectly

Also it's funny looking back on the period where it was just Scooby, Shaggy, and Scrappy cause they encountered a lot of real monsters, and that continued into the period where Daphne rejoined too, which made the Red Shirt Shaggy Movies not really all that weird in retrospect, also kinda makes the marketing for Zombie Island kinda a bold faced lie, cause they had in fact encountered quite a few real monsters prior to that one

mdct
Sep 2, 2011

Tingle tingle kooloo limpah.
These are my magic words.

Don't steal them.

TwoPair posted:

The Dog Called Scooby-Doo and Norville Rogers' Grave are good side series

Personally I liked The Blood Spray of Frederick Jones the most myself outta those.

Bugsy
Jul 15, 2004

I'm thumpin'. That's
why they call me
'Thumper'.


Slippery Tilde

doomrider7 posted:

I recall him being the passive aggressive one. The one I REALLY don't recall was the one who replaced him.

The original act was Moe Larry and Shemp who left for a solo career before they did the Columbia shorts. Shemp joined them again after Curly had a stroke, Joe Besser after Shemp died, and then Curly Joe DeRita after Joe left the act.



I liked the Daffy short more the Bugs short. The Bugs voice just isnt quite right, and why are his gloves so yellow?

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drrockso20
May 6, 2013

Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

Bugsy posted:

The original act was Moe Larry and Shemp who left for a solo career before they did the Columbia shorts. Shemp joined them again after Curly had a stroke, Joe Besser after Shemp died, and then Curly Joe DeRita after Joe left the act.



I liked the Daffy short more the Bugs short. The Bugs voice just isnt quite right, and why are his gloves so yellow?

They based his look on how he looked in his first couple of shorts, his gloves were yellow then

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