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socketwrencher
Apr 10, 2012

Be still and know.

oXDemosthenesXo posted:

I'm fixing up my new place and need to patch some large sections of drywall in the garage. There's some sections of the drywall that were removed as part of rodent removal from before I bought the place that weren't fixed by the PO before I moved in. They ripped out from the floor to about 48" up for about a 10' run, conveniently right behind the water heater and furnace. There's enough access to get to the studs for screws luckily, but I'll have to use shorter than normal pieces because of the awkward access.

The removed sections were double layered 5/8" drywall (soundproofing to adjacent condos) and I'm trying to figure out how best to do the replacement. Are double layers typically put up one layer at a time, or do you put them up simultaneously? If one layer at a time, do you stagger the edges so the seams don't line up? If so, do you need to tape in between layers?

What's the target screw length into the studs behind the drywall? I vaguely remember reading to shoot for 5/8" into the studs, so 1-1/4' for a single layer or ~2" for the double?

I'd go one layer at a time

1 5/8" for the first layer, no tape

2 1/4" for the second layer, staggered seams

Since you're only going up about 48" over 10 feet, you might consider adding sisters to the existing studs to make screwing the edges easier.

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Chichevache
Feb 17, 2010

One of the funniest posters in GIP.

Just not intentionally.

socketwrencher posted:

The leveler in your pic looks like it was troweled on, it doesn't look like it self-leveled much at all. It should pour like thick paint, and be able to be easily spread at the margins with something like a wide drywall knife to a feather-edge. Most levelers also end up with a somewhat surprisingly smooth to the touch finish. If you have any left, you might mix up a small batch with more water than you used before and see how it goes.

Maybe you're okay as is. I don't think so, but it won't hurt to lay flooring and check before grinding or further leveling. You don't have to cut any of the flooring, just click it together over most of that area and see how it lays. Let it acclimate for several days before laying it down, and give it a few more days to settle after before making a determination.

That's because that wasnt leveler. Its planipatch, and I didn't end up liking it much. You can't see the leveler in any pics I shared, but it turned out pretty well for a first attempt.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.
Fun Shoe
I'm considering making a wall-mounted lamp. The goal here is to put in one or two full-spectrum bulbs to try to help counteract seasonal affective disorder. Is there anything more to this than "buy pre-wired lamp socket, glue into lamp" that I ought to know about? I'm not going to try to run the power inside the wall or anything, just down the wall to an outlet. The lamp would be made from wood; I'm not sure what to use for a diffuser, but if all else fails, some parchment paper in a tension frame ought to work right? The bulb will probably be an LED bulb so I don't think heat should be an issue.

Speaking of bulbs, any bulb recommendations? These are well-reviewed...a little pricey though.

The Slack Lagoon
Jun 17, 2008



Is there a thread on masonry? I have some questions about repointing some bricks and concrete blocks

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004


The Slack Lagoon posted:

Is there a thread on masonry? I have some questions about repointing some bricks and concrete blocks

None that I know of. Feel free to start one, or a project thread, or ask here.

socketwrencher
Apr 10, 2012

Be still and know.

Chichevache posted:

That's because that wasnt leveler. Its planipatch, and I didn't end up liking it much. You can't see the leveler in any pics I shared, but it turned out pretty well for a first attempt.

Oh cool, glad it worked out.

Chichevache posted:

My issue with more leveler is that I don't think I can pour it thin enough to blend with the actually level floor it connects too.

Don't get this though, the leveler should be close to featheredge-able.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006
As I recall self leveler should be at like milkshake consistency. Depending on what you need to do it's either spoonable or straw-able milkshake. Or thinner if you truly just need a little layer on top of some texture you want to even out but not sand off.

trout!!
Mar 3, 2004
I have a home that's about to hit it's 100 year birthday and over the last year have started to see cracking showing up in our walls.

Is this "have someone check it out" stuff, or is it "just patch it and move on" territory?

https://imgur.com/a/wF8Ri1t

socketwrencher
Apr 10, 2012

Be still and know.

H110Hawk posted:

As I recall self leveler should be at like milkshake consistency. Depending on what you need to do it's either spoonable or straw-able milkshake. Or thinner if you truly just need a little layer on top of some texture you want to even out but not sand off.

Yeah I think thick paint is pretty close.

Kaiser Schnitzel
Mar 29, 2006

Schnitzel mit uns


killingthebest posted:

I have a home that's about to hit it's 100 year birthday and over the last year have started to see cracking showing up in our walls.

Is this "have someone check it out" stuff, or is it "just patch it and move on" territory?

https://imgur.com/a/wF8Ri1t
If they are in fact new cracks, it's probably worth getting them checked out? Has anything changed around the house lately like getting a big tree removed or drainage changed?

Your floors are gorgeous.

trout!!
Mar 3, 2004

Kaiser Schnitzel posted:

If they are in fact new cracks, it's probably worth getting them checked out? Has anything changed around the house lately like getting a big tree removed or drainage changed?

Your floors are gorgeous.

There are patched cracks around the house, so it's not new-new, just new to us. The ones I posted photos of have all shown up in the last 6 months. We did take out a tree from the yard a few months back, so that sounds like the culprit!

Thank you for the floor comment! They are my favorite part of this house - mostly original to the home and in surprisingly good shape. Aside from a kitchen and bath remodel in the 80s, the house has been largely untouched which is rare for our area. Most of the homes in our part of world have had major un-permitted additions or construction of some sort. We really wanted something that hadn't been flipped, or didn't have a sketchy remodel over the years and feel very fortunate to have found this place.

PainterofCrap
Oct 17, 2002

hey bebe


killingthebest posted:

I have a home that's about to hit it's 100 year birthday and over the last year have started to see cracking showing up in our walls.

Is this "have someone check it out" stuff, or is it "just patch it and move on" territory?

https://imgur.com/a/wF8Ri1t

Cracks at hard points in your walls (corners and at the top corners of door & window openings) are an inevitable reality of home ownership. Caulk, paint, move on.

If the walls are plaster, the cracks will continue to return. I’ve patched over the same seven cracks three or four times since 1992.

Love the house. Don’t move.

kid sinister
Nov 16, 2002

killingthebest posted:

I have a home that's about to hit it's 100 year birthday and over the last year have started to see cracking showing up in our walls.

Is this "have someone check it out" stuff, or is it "just patch it and move on" territory?

https://imgur.com/a/wF8Ri1t

This is inevitable. Walls will crack as your house settles. That 3rd picture is strange though, the straight crack above the door. Plaster cracks are never straight unless they're in a corner. Is that in an addition with drywall?

oXDemosthenesXo
May 9, 2005
Grimey Drawer

socketwrencher posted:

I'd go one layer at a time

1 5/8" for the first layer, no tape

2 1/4" for the second layer, staggered seams

Since you're only going up about 48" over 10 feet, you might consider adding sisters to the existing studs to make screwing the edges easier.

Perfect, thanks.

I did notice this notched stud in the area in about to cover up. Is this something I should fix before it's hidden away?

Chichevache
Feb 17, 2010

One of the funniest posters in GIP.

Just not intentionally.


The previous owner caulked a bunch of hideous tiles around the fireplace. I removed them, but now I need to spackle this entire wall and try to match the pattern that is in the surrounding walls. I found a paint roller that has a pattern I hope is similar, and I'm going to try and press that into the spackle as I go. Fingers crossed, because I'm not about to put in new drywall. gently caress that.

Pigasus
Dec 26, 2009

Too fat to wear pink.

I have this 1/4 inch gap between the sink counter to the tiling backsplash that I want to fill to avoid having water leak to the back and cause water damage to the wall.

What do you suggest I use to fill this gap?


Chichevache
Feb 17, 2010

One of the funniest posters in GIP.

Just not intentionally.

Pigasus posted:

I have this 1/4 inch gap between the sink counter to the tiling backsplash that I want to fill to avoid having water leak to the back and cause water damage to the wall.

What do you suggest I use to fill this gap?




100% silicon caulk would be my choice based on an entire week and a half of DIY experience. Let's see if a big boy who knows what they're doing agrees with me.

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004


kid sinister posted:

This is inevitable. Walls will crack as your house settles. That 3rd picture is strange though, the straight crack above the door. Plaster cracks are never straight unless they're in a corner. Is that in an addition with drywall?

I was wondering if it might be the position of a lintel.

AFewBricksShy
Jun 19, 2003

of a full load.



Pigasus posted:

I have this 1/4 inch gap between the sink counter to the tiling backsplash that I want to fill to avoid having water leak to the back and cause water damage to the wall.

What do you suggest I use to fill this gap?




I would try and get some backer rod in there and just get a caulk roughly the same color as the grout.

Kaiser Schnitzel
Mar 29, 2006

Schnitzel mit uns


kid sinister posted:

This is inevitable. Walls will crack as your house settles. That 3rd picture is strange though, the straight crack above the door. Plaster cracks are never straight unless they're in a corner. Is that in an addition with drywall?
My house has plaster but with the lath that came in sheets? I don't know if it is metal lath or rock lath, but sometimes it cracks in straight-ish lines along the edges of the sheets.

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004


Also if it's done UK-style it'll be skim plaster over plasterboard (drywall equivalent), so that can also travel along board joints etc.

socketwrencher
Apr 10, 2012

Be still and know.

oXDemosthenesXo posted:

Perfect, thanks.

I did notice this notched stud in the area in about to cover up. Is this something I should fix before it's hidden away?



Nail plate it:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-1-2-in-x-5-in-12-Gauge-Zinc-Plated-Steel-Nail-Plates-62850/100165368

Also it looks like that stud is notched too deep, I'd sister a notched 2x4 to the right of it (with the notch obviously facing the other way).

Put a nail plate over the sister as well to protect the pipe.

tangy yet delightful
Sep 13, 2005



Pigasus posted:

I have this 1/4 inch gap between the sink counter to the tiling backsplash that I want to fill to avoid having water leak to the back and cause water damage to the wall.

What do you suggest I use to fill this gap?




That looks like a freestanding vanity that's only "attached" to the wall insofar as the plumbing attaches it. Caulking that gap before securing the vanity will result in the caulk giving out from movement as you bump into the vanity or whatever in your daily life.

Or maybe I'm wrong and it is attached in which case, caulk away (possibly with a tiny diameter dowel rod as a backer).

oXDemosthenesXo
May 9, 2005
Grimey Drawer

socketwrencher posted:

Nail plate it:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-1-2-in-x-5-in-12-Gauge-Zinc-Plated-Steel-Nail-Plates-62850/100165368

Also it looks like that stud is notched too deep, I'd sister a notched 2x4 to the right of it (with the notch obviously facing the other way).

Put a nail plate over the sister as well to protect the pipe.

Good call I hadn't even thought about protecting the pipe. Do you typically chisel out space for the nail plate or just slap it on the edge of the stud?

SpartanIvy
May 18, 2007
Hair Elf
Just hammer it over the stud. It'll sit flush enough with some good hammering. I just put two in my house.

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004


socketwrencher posted:

Put a nail plate over the sister as well to protect the pipe.

Fun note, my mother needed a large mirror hanging in her new-build house, and her brother drilled this for her. Feeling some resistance, he pushed on through, straight through a steel plate, and straight into the pressurised copper water pipe it was (briefly) protecting.

Pigasus
Dec 26, 2009

Too fat to wear pink.

Chichevache posted:

100% silicon caulk would be my choice based on an entire week and a half of DIY experience. Let's see if a big boy who knows what they're doing agrees with me.


AFewBricksShy posted:

I would try and get some backer rod in there and just get a caulk roughly the same color as the grout.

Thanks for the advice. Caulking it might be a good solution, especially with a backer rod to hold the caulk in place.


tangy yet delightful posted:

That looks like a freestanding vanity that's only "attached" to the wall insofar as the plumbing attaches it. Caulking that gap before securing the vanity will result in the caulk giving out from movement as you bump into the vanity or whatever in your daily life.

Or maybe I'm wrong and it is attached in which case, caulk away (possibly with a tiny diameter dowel rod as a backer).

You're right in that it's only "attached" to the wall through the plumbing. The other edge has the gap caulked, but it seems to have been shaken loose. Is there any other solution I can use? I was considering using some kind of trim to put between the tile and the vanity, but I wasn't sure where to start finding the trim or whether or not it would solve that issue.

tangy yet delightful
Sep 13, 2005



Pigasus posted:

Thanks for the advice. Caulking it might be a good solution, especially with a backer rod to hold the caulk in place.


You're right in that it's only "attached" to the wall through the plumbing. The other edge has the gap caulked, but it seems to have been shaken loose. Is there any other solution I can use? I was considering using some kind of trim to put between the tile and the vanity, but I wasn't sure where to start finding the trim or whether or not it would solve that issue.

Apologies if I missed this but assuming you own the place I would see about attaching the vanity to the wall and then proceed as discussed with the caulking. Inside the vanity it's probably mostly poo poo thin particle board on the back but the framing should be solid wood and some screws through that into your wall studs should do the trick to stop it moving. Now the gap between your vanity and the wall means that you would want to fill the space behind it with some wood blocks or shims, or just be careful you don't overdrive the screws so you're *tipping the vanity backwards* into the wall as the screws leverage it to get tight. Hope that makes sense.

Also don't drill into your water lines.

FPS_Sage
Oct 25, 2007

This was a triumph
Gun Saliva
Yesterday, I had a roofing & siding company ring my doorbell and offer to do a free inspection of my house. They were already doing work at one of my neighbor's houses. Of course they found some damage since that's what they're paid to do (although to be fair we did have some hail here about a month ago so I'm sure I got damaged somehow). They claimed they would work directly with my insurance company and that I wouldn't have to pay anything for a new roof and siding since they could link it back to that hailstorm.

That sounds too good to be true. (In fact, thinking back about the conversation, I wonder if they actually said that or just strongly implied it.) My roofing and siding is older, maybe ~15 years. Would the insurance actually agree to replace everything? Or would they say, hey, your roof is old, most of this is normal wear and tear so you're on your own?

I've done some googling on this, and it sounds like some of these companies may be legit, but others may not be, and they get you to sign a bunch of contracts basically locking you in and then say “you still have to use us even though insurance is only covering a fraction of the price.”

Long story short, has anyone used a company like this in the past? How did it work out? Or am I better trying to deal with my insurance company directly, and then choosing a contractor on my own?


Edit - Unfortunately, I don't really know my neighbor. Not trying to be the typical anti-social goon, I tried to stop by a couple times to ask what his experience was with this company. He rents his house out and so I never see him there, and I think he must be in-between tenants right now.

FPS_Sage fucked around with this message at 15:15 on May 19, 2020

Literally Lewis Hamilton
Feb 22, 2005



FPS_Sage posted:

Yesterday, I had a roofing & siding company ring my doorbell and offer to do a free inspection of my house. They were already doing work at one of my neighbor's houses. Of course they found some damage since that's what they're paid to do (although to be fair we did have some hail here about a month ago so I'm sure I got damaged somehow). They claimed they would work directly with my insurance company and that I wouldn't have to pay anything for a new roof and siding since they could link it back to that hailstorm.

That sounds too good to be true. (In fact, thinking back about the conversation, I wonder if they actually said that or just strongly implied it.) My roofing and siding is older, maybe ~15 years. Would the insurance actually agree to replace everything? Or would they say, hey, your roof is old, most of this is normal wear and tear so you're on your own?

I've done some googling on this, and it sounds like some of these companies may be legit, but others may not be, and they get you to sign a bunch of contracts basically locking you in and then say “you still have to use us even though insurance is only covering a fraction of the price.”

Long story short, has anyone used a company like this in the past? How did it work out? Or am I better trying to deal with my insurance company directly, and then choosing a contractor on my own?


Edit - Unfortunately, I don't really know my neighbor. Not trying to be the typical anti-social goon, I tried to stop by a couple times to ask what his experience was with this company. He rents his house out and so I never see him there, and I think he must be in-between tenants right now.

Are they actually working on your neighbor's house? This is a common angle.

FPS_Sage
Oct 25, 2007

This was a triumph
Gun Saliva

big crush on Chad OMG posted:

Are they actually working on your neighbor's house? This is a common angle.

Yes, I'm pretty sure - they did just get a new roof put on this week, although come to think of it, I never actually saw who was doing the work :tinfoil:

The Dave
Sep 9, 2003

That's basically the most common line used when companies send out their little minions to canvas a neighborhood. It doesn't necessarily say anything good or bad about the company, it's just an ice breaker to start a pitch.

shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010

Fun Shoe
In general if something has to advertise, how good can it be?

PainterofCrap
Oct 17, 2002

hey bebe


FPS_Sage posted:

Yesterday, I had a roofing & siding company ring my doorbell and offer to do a free inspection of my house.

These are hail chasers, and they're working your neighborhood. This is their pitch. Their method is to sign up one house, plaster their signage on the front lawn, then go to every house in the neighborhood & say, "Hey! Your neighbor's house was grenaded by hail! let's see if you were, too!"

In many cases, this is your first notice that there was even any hail in the area.

I have dealt with hundreds of these assholes over the years. I'm dealing with them right now.

These guys are not local. Check the plate on their truck. If they have a local number, it's a burner phone. They're from New York or Georgia or the Midwest.

They'll furnish an estimate, usually not detailed (a paragraph about replacing your roof & siding, followed by an astonishingly high number). Their aim is to get me to overpay and they pocket the difference. They might even chip in for your deductible.

I do not work with them. I work strictly with my policyholder, even if they protest that they're 'not involved.' Dude, it's your loving house, you're involved, and if there's fraud being committed, you're in it just as deep as the contractor.

When I get these, the first thing I do is assign a licensed general contractor to inspect the home for damage. I inspect it as well. They may find nothing, or heavy deterioration/wear / ongoing weathering (none of which is covered);

or

wind/hail damage - which is, but, as you noted, may be repairable.

The big push by these guys is the warranty. They call themselves "roof warranty" companies - this angle is the thrust behind their insistence on replacing the entire roof, because they can't warranty a repair. Too bad, guys: the roof wasn't under warranty at the time of the loss. If it is repairable, we're writing to repair it.

This is all, however, is based on getting you to sign their contract. If you get to that point (and I hope you do not) then read the loving thing. All of it. Because one of the clauses in it usually has some kind of direction to pay and/or (if truly awful) a power-of-attorney directive in it, which allows them to cash your insurance check - even if you don't sign it.

By the way, good luck getting ahold of these folks after they get your money. You will probably get the work done, but you'll never get them to come back out if it's unfinished or if a problem crops up.

Yes, you may have damage. Hail can 'bruise" shingles and put small dents in soft metals (gutters, soffit, aluminum window wrap, etc). The shingles are designed with this as part of their life-span. A certain amount of weather damage is normal. Do a walk-around of your house. If you see storm or hail damage to your home, and you want to claim it, call your agent or carrier and report it. If you don't notice it, no one else will. If you're unsure, call someone local to you for an inspection/estimate.

PainterofCrap fucked around with this message at 16:49 on May 19, 2020

socketwrencher
Apr 10, 2012

Be still and know.

Pigasus posted:

Thanks for the advice. Caulking it might be a good solution, especially with a backer rod to hold the caulk in place.


You're right in that it's only "attached" to the wall through the plumbing. The other edge has the gap caulked, but it seems to have been shaken loose. Is there any other solution I can use? I was considering using some kind of trim to put between the tile and the vanity, but I wasn't sure where to start finding the trim or whether or not it would solve that issue.

There are various types of trim available:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/MSI-Whi...5-8X6/205864788

As Tangy mentioned, if you screw the vanity securely to the studs it should be stable enough where caulk and trim would solve the issue. Might not look that great, or who knows, maybe a pop of colored trim would look cool.

There are other options, but they'd involved more time and effort and tools, e.g. you could disconnect the vanity and trim the base at an angle so it sits flush (or flush enough) against the wall. It might seem daunting, but it's an experience that might come in handy down the road. If the vanity happens to have feet, it would be even easier to trim.

Too much work? What are you, 80?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-vZ_rBUCcw

FPS_Sage
Oct 25, 2007

This was a triumph
Gun Saliva

PainterofCrap posted:

These are hail chasers, and they're working your neighborhood. This is their pitch. Their method is to sign up one house, plaster their signage on the front lawn, then go to every house in the neighborhood & say, "Hey! Your neighbor's house was grenaded by hail! let's see if you were, too!"

In many cases, this is your first notice that there was even any hail in the area.

I have dealt with hundreds of these assholes over the years. I'm dealing with them right now.

These guys are not local. Check the plate on their truck. If they have a local number, it's a burner phone. They're from New York or Georgia or the Midwest.

They'll furnish an estimate, usually not detailed (a paragraph about replacing your roof & siding, followed by an astonishingly high number). Their aim is to get me to overpay and they pocket the difference. They might even chip in for your deductible.

I do not work with them. I work strictly with my policyholder, even if they protest that they're 'not involved.' Dude, it's your loving house, you're involved, and if there's fraud being committed, you're in it just as deep as the contractor.

When I get these, the first thing I do is assign a licensed general contractor to inspect the home for damage. I inspect it as well. They may find nothing, or heavy deterioration/wear / ongoing weathering (none of which is covered);

or

wind/hail damage - which is, but, as you noted, may be repairable.

The big push by these guys is the warranty. They call themselves "roof warranty" companies - this angle is the thrust behind their insistence on replacing the entire roof, because they can't warranty a repair. Too bad, guys: the roof wasn't under warranty at the time of the loss. If it is repairable, we're writing to repair it.

This is all, however, is based on getting you to sign their contract. If you get to that point (and I hope you do not) then read the loving thing. All of it. Because one of the clauses in it usually has some kind of direction to pay and/or (if truly awful) a power-of-attorney directive in it, which allows them to cash your insurance check - even if you don't sign it.

By the way, good luck getting ahold of these folks after they get your money. You will probably get the work done, but you'll never get them to come back out if it's unfinished or if a problem crops up.

Yes, you may have damage. Hail can 'bruise" shingles and put small dents in soft metals (gutters, soffit, aluminum window wrap, etc). The shingles are designed with this as part of their life-span. A certain amount of weather damage is normal. Do a walk-around of your house. If you see storm or hail damage to your home, and you want to claim it, call your agent or carrier and report it. If you don't notice it, no one else will. If you're unsure, call someone local to you for an inspection/estimate.

Thanks for the detailed reply - kind of what I was thinking. I'll tell these guys a firm "No"

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004


FPS_Sage posted:

Thanks for the detailed reply - kind of what I was thinking. I'll tell these guys a firm "No"

Also maybe give your other neighbours a heads-up.

stevewm
May 10, 2005

PainterofCrap posted:

....hail chasers....

I had one of these outfits show up at my door right after I moved in 7 years ago.

Tried to tell me they could see from the street my roof was in pretty bad shape, and my neighbor was getting theirs repaired from the "recent hailstorm" so I should probably look into it as well. They did mention insurance, but nothing about warranty that I could remember.

The house was barely a month old and the roof was in immaculate shape. Hell most of my yard was still dirt at this point.

I didn't bother to look where they where from, I was too busy telling them to get the gently caress off my property.

There hadn't been any recent hailstorm, and my neighbor had never heard of them.

mutata
Mar 1, 2003

Crosspostin' from the Home Spergin thread, so hopefully that's kosher. But in case there's other thoughts here:

My wife and I are looking at vinyl plank flooring to do roughly half our square footage in our house. Includes kitchen, 3 bathrooms, a laundry room, etc. Basically most high-traffic areas of the house and all of the wettest areas. We looked at stuff like wood-look tile and such, but all the materials (underlayment, cement, grout, etc) probably puts most quality options out of our price range for the amount of square footage we're looking at.

Anyway, I wanted to ask; does anyone have a recommendation either for or against certain brands or types of vinyl plank flooring? Any general "wish I knew this before I bought" advice?

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H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006

FPS_Sage posted:

Yes, I'm pretty sure - they did just get a new roof put on this week, although come to think of it, I never actually saw who was doing the work :tinfoil:

Are permits in your town public record? Pull your neighbors and see. Surely they didn't do an unpermitted roof replacement! Some cities even have trivial auto-approve "tear off and replace roof" online permit applications that makes it super easy to do and guarantees at least the start of work permit is visible in the portal. (This isn't some like open and shut thing, it just gives you the ability to start work quickly. There are various inspections that must take place to keep using that system, and if you're caught cheating it they blacklist your license from the portal. I haven't used it, but I was trying to figure out a permit in this town and was impressed by the system. My city you have to show up in person.)

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