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Hopefully this doesn't break any rules but I'm going to cross post some questions I had about suspension and body work in here from the Miata thread. I've been aware for some time that my suspension has been bottoming out during track days. I'm curious if this is due to the car being too low (4.25in F / 4.5in R pinch weld), being under sprung, or having crappy dampers (or a combination of all 3) and whatever else you can tell me by looking at these photos. Should I have the fenders rolled to prevent this damage in the future? The car is on Tien Street Basic Dampers with Fr 392 lbs/in, Rear 336 lbs/in spring rates (as far as I know). I'm soon to be in the process of replacing the Tien suspension with a set of Gen 2 Xida Races with 800/500 spring rates, i'm excited to see the difference it makes.       These bushings are toast right?   
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Feb 10, 2020 07:26
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Diametunim posted:Hopefully this doesn't break any rules but I'm going to cross post some questions I had about suspension and body work in here from the Miata thread. I've been aware for some time that my suspension has been bottoming out during track days. I'm curious if this is due to the car being too low (4.25in F / 4.5in R pinch weld), being under sprung, or having crappy dampers (or a combination of all 3) and whatever else you can tell me by looking at these photos. Diametunim posted:These bushings are toast right? Yes. The upper and lowers are, the rest looks decent, but it's so cheap and easy to do why not swap them out? The Prong Song fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Feb 10, 2020 |
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Feb 10, 2020 15:39
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I'm assuming you're on 15x9 & 225/45 tires. You're under sprung in the front for sure. Don't worry about rubbing on the fender liners, they're self modifying. You can simply remove them if you're not worried about autox classing (STR - the fender liners have to stay). I've got a 99 with 800/500 xidas, 4/4.25 f/r pinch weld heights. I had to roll and pull the front and rear to run 245's, and I get very minor rubbing on the shock towers with 5mm spacers. Not enough to feel, but enough to wear the paint off in one spot. If your fenders are contacting the tires, you need to roll / pull to prevent it. If they're just hitting the fender liners, either remove them or don't worry about it. With respect to your bushings, the diff ones are probably toast. Mine were, and I replaced them with poly. The other pictures appear to be ball joints / tie rod ends. The upper ball joints are pressed into the UCA's, it's easier just to replace the UCA's. The lower ball joints are easy to replace, and you should get extended ones - easy way to add camber. With respect to the rest of the bushings, don't assume they're trashed. Get a pry bar in there and see if you can get any play out of them. If you can, replace them, if not they're probably fine. I couldn't get any play in mine, chances are the rubber has hardened up and they're fine.
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Feb 10, 2020 18:15
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RE: Fender liners - are Miata fenders strong enough to not get pin dents from the inside out from rocks thrown by tires? 
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Feb 10, 2020 18:39
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It’s flimsy plastic held on with only a few bolts and trim push clips. The fronts wear in the front and straight up. If you’re running wide tires and are lowered, you need to roll the lip of the fenders in on an NA on all four corners. I think NBs have way more room in the rear.
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Feb 10, 2020 18:45
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Phone posted:If you’re running wide tires and are lowered, you need to roll the lip of the fenders in on an NA on all four corners. I think NBs have way more room in the rear. If you're low on 225's or larger you'll probably need to roll & pull the rears, at least that was my experience.
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Feb 10, 2020 19:21
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The Prong Song posted:I think your dampers are probably toast. I'm sure other Miata guys (I'm looking at you, Phone), will tell you you're under-sprung as well. I have a friend with the Xidas, and he's quite happy with them; getting those will probably fix all those issues at once. You're not too low and definitely don't need a fender roll. I've wondered what condition the dampers are in but I don't think they're blown. They aren't leaking and appear to be in relatively good condition compared to a damper that has seen some mileage. Either way, don't care. they're garbage and I can't wait to be rid of them. I pretty much knew the bushings in the control arms were shot but thanks for confirming. I was more concerned about the tie-rod ends as I may be needing to send the rack of to be rebuilt and may as well refresh everything else while I'm there. TrueChaos posted:I'm assuming you're on 15x9 & 225/45 tires. You're under sprung in the front for sure. Don't worry about rubbing on the fender liners, they're self modifying. You can simply remove them if you're not worried about autox classing (STR - the fender liners have to stay). Just curious If you drive your setup on the street how tolerable do you find it? I have have to be careful on the street with my current suspension setup as it's pretty prone to scraping. I'll take a look at the bushings and see what I find. It's kind of disheartening to hear that changing the upper ball joints is a pain in the rear end. I was hoping to not have to pull the UCAs but I suppose it's only one more thing. Thanks for the advice all
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Feb 12, 2020 06:06
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You are underspring for those ride heights. Raise the car or bump the rates. I'm on #1000 fronts and 205 Hoosiers, the tops of my fenders are polished shiny.
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Feb 14, 2020 07:09
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Diametunim posted:Just curious If you drive your setup on the street how tolerable do you find it? I have have to be careful on the street with my current suspension setup as it's pretty prone to scraping. I'll take a look at the bushings and see what I find. It's kind of disheartening to hear that changing the upper ball joints is a pain in the rear end. I was hoping to not have to pull the UCAs but I suppose it's only one more thing. My only real long term comparison is to stock, and I didn't notice a huge difference in ride quality on the street. I did diff bushings and stiffer motor mounts at the same time, so it's hard to pinpoint changes as just suspension based. It's certainly not the most comfortable (I'm running a bucket seat and 6 point harness as well) but the dampers are good enough that I don't really feel like my teeth are being rattled out of my head or anything. Much of it will depend on the roads you drive. I don't mind it at all, but I only really drive the car to / from events. UCA's are inexpensive, and much easier to change as a unit than messing with the ball joint. At 205 tires, your wheels could be anything from 6-8" wide, they'd be really stretched on a 9" wheel.
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Feb 14, 2020 16:34
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So I've been considering giving racing a chance, maybe an autocross or something but pretty much all of my cars are godawful slow. Is there a good way to find an autocross for really slow cars? Also are any of these vehicles OK for this kind of thing? 2000 Camry 2.2 - It has 360k miles, an upgraded suspension and decent tires but I've never driven it super hard, handles great but the engine mileage concerns me. 130HP is very optimistic. 1997 Volvo 960 2.9 i6 - This one has a much lower 250k miles and is RWD with fresh front struts but has a tired transverse composite leaf in the rear. It is also a wagon. 1989 Golf 2.0 - Freshly rebuilt engine and low mileage (60k) resealed transmission, the block was upgraded to 2.0l and the head ported so it has about 125HP, but it runs a 3 speed diesel automatic transmission that doesn't hit second until 25mph, has an 8v counterflow head, and 13" tires/wheels. I'm suspecting none of these are appropriate but my other cars are even less so. (a Suburban, convertible with no roll-bar, and a hybrid)
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Feb 19, 2020 00:25
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Show up in whatever you'll have the most fun in and don't worry about being fast when you're new - you won't be, no matter what you're driving.
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Feb 19, 2020 00:32
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Ok cool, thanks. I was concerned since they are all so slow and people posting elsewhere talk about showing up in a "slow" low mileage miata with a 5 speed, which is a bit better than what I have. It'll probably be between the Camry and Golf I think. Just need to find an appropriate event somewhere nearby.
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Feb 19, 2020 00:40
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Nobody else is driving out there with you so you don't need to worry about being in anyone's way, and the tracks tend to be very tight and short since they're normally done in a parking lot. You could bring a Prius and have fun.
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Feb 19, 2020 00:50
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Autocross the Golf. It'll be fun. 
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Feb 19, 2020 00:54
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Wrar posted:Autocross the Golf. It'll be fun. Yeah this! It’s perfect.
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Feb 19, 2020 01:28
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I’ve seen plenty of Accords show up to autocross.
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Feb 19, 2020 01:45
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The unexpected cars are always the crowd favorites at an autocross. One of my fond autocross memories is seeing a Prius going nuts on the course.
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Feb 19, 2020 02:49
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Autoexec.bat posted:Ok cool, thanks. I was concerned since they are all so slow and people posting elsewhere talk about showing up in a "slow" low mileage miata with a 5 speed, which is a bit better than what I have. It'll probably be between the Camry and Golf I think. Just need to find an appropriate event somewhere nearby. Yeah autocross is the way to start because like mentioned you aren't really racing against anybody, just your own times. And usually the courses are pretty turny so you won't be getting up to 120+ mph straights or anything, so slower cars are fine. Everybody focuses on horsepower but driver mods are where its really at. Miatas are slow compared to like Corvettes but so many people love to autocross or track their Miatas because when it comes to real racing, its about driver skills! You *might* get embarrassed trying to track HPDE the Golf, but maybe not and even then, if you find the right newbie run group then its fine, and people will enjoy having a car they can pass and you can practice your point-bys  but you can autocross plenty first anywaysAnd if you wanna be really cool, rallycross the volvo \m/
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Feb 19, 2020 03:25
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Drive whatever, you'll love it. Worrying about the ideal car comes much later. Don't be shy at all about being new. Ask for help, ask experienced people to ride along, ask to ride in their car, ask them to drive yours. Your goals should be: 1. Have fun 2. Get better Once your car starts holding you back you can look at either mods or a different car. Also post about it, a lot.
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Feb 19, 2020 03:34
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Thanks for the advice guys, I'll see if I can find an event to drive at with the VW to start with. And yeah I wouldn't drive the VW on a full track, 80mph is about 3800 RPM so 100 is unlikely. Road Atlanta is the only track I know of in my area and from what I hear that isn't ideal. I may reconsider the Volvo once I get a new rear leaf for it but 960 leaves are *really* hard to get a hold of new for some reason. Also should I have any concerns about the brakes? My golf is a GL and therefore has solid non-vented brakes.
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Feb 19, 2020 04:21
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Autocrosses are not long enough or fast enough to get major heat into brakes. Doubly so when you as a driver are not that fast.
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Feb 19, 2020 04:34
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Ah alright, thanks again everyone, I'll try to take some pics when I get a chance to go once I catch up on some repairs. You guys have made me feel a lot better about it.
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Feb 19, 2020 04:47
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We’ve raced a Mk2 Golf at Road America plenty of times. It gets up to about 122mph before you have to brake for turn 5.
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Feb 19, 2020 08:41
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Test n tune footage from the ice track https://youtu.be/AvMZEgiV_hQ https://youtu.be/fTYVURbFHow 266 1.5" ice screws per tire. When the ice is clean I'm getting grip comparable to warm blacktop. Other than the Honda cr500 2 stroke in a 250cc aluminum frame that I was getting walked on in the straights this thing is lol fast.
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Feb 19, 2020 10:28
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drgitlin posted:We’ve raced a Mk2 Golf at Road America plenty of times. It gets up to about 122mph before you have to brake for turn 5. Yeah the whole 3 speed automatic thing kind of dampens my max speed a bit :P.
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Feb 19, 2020 13:47
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You only really need 2nd gear in most cars for autocross anyway.
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Feb 19, 2020 14:29
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jonathan posted:Test n tune footage from the ice track That looks like a goddamn blast!
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Feb 19, 2020 16:06
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Some friends are saying I am giving up speed and not defensive enough on corner entry... But with ice you have to stay in the groove to keep traction. The far inside apex and the outside get dusted up and snowy and then the spikes can't do their job.
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Feb 19, 2020 22:06
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You all catch this one? What a poo poo show https://www.thedrive.com/news/33607/toronto-motorsports-parks-first-post-lockdown-track-day-ends-in-crashes-punches-fire
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May 21, 2020 19:53
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The double pass into the braking zone off the main straight is SOP for one of the groups that runs here. That is all a lot for one day :popcorn:
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May 21, 2020 20:15
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TMP is the closest track to me and I went there precisely once. The only time you would see me on that track is if I had the whole place to myself. And even then, I don't trust their emergency response.
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May 21, 2020 21:01
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Yeah, I've been watching that shitshow unfold across various car groups on facebook. I haven't driven TMP, and from what I've seen of it I doubt I ever will. I find some events at shannonville are also a bit sketchy, its worth it to look up videos from the group running the event before attending. Most are fine though. I'm lucky in that my home track is Calabogie, and Tremblant is great as well. KillHour & BlackMK4 - you guys ever make it up to bogie?
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May 21, 2020 22:26
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TrueChaos posted:Yeah, I've been watching that shitshow unfold across various car groups on facebook. I haven't driven TMP, and from what I've seen of it I doubt I ever will. I find some events at shannonville are also a bit sketchy, its worth it to look up videos from the group running the event before attending. Most are fine though. No, I haven't. It's about a 6 hour drive from Buffalo, so there are a lot of closer tracks than that. I tend to do Pittsburgh and Watkins Glen the most.
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May 21, 2020 22:43
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Ganondork posted:You all catch this one? What a poo poo show Private test day at Carolina Motorsport Park in early June I'm thinking of signing up for. Would be very limited people which makes me feel a little safer with Coronavirus. VDCA, SCCA and all the track day orgs have been bombarding me with events and pushing for early registration. I'm itching to get on track really bad.
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May 22, 2020 12:24
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It might be “Touge” or one of its successors. I attended one of their events approximately one time and it contained the worst driving standards I’ve ever seen. It was wet so every driver was spinning off.
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May 22, 2020 13:42
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KillHour posted:TMP is the closest track to me and I went there precisely once. The only time you would see me on that track is if I had the whole place to myself. And even then, I don't trust their emergency response. CSCS and OTA run good events there if you don’t mind paying more.
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May 22, 2020 13:44
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NitroSpazzz posted:I just want to know what organization so I can never ever run with them. People ask me why I'm always nervous running with new groups...that's why. That event was run directly by the track. They have one guy who's the only marshal, group assigner, waiver checker, tech inspector, tow truck driver, fire fighter, drivers meeting conductor (hint - this never happens!) and apparently boxing referee. He also doesn't have the authority to kick someone out.
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May 22, 2020 20:29
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TrueChaos posted:That event was run directly by the track. "wow, a perfect track day"
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May 22, 2020 21:27
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Ah, TMP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vreUlIu3-x4 I've heard so many stories about the lapping days some orgs run in ontario. No marshals, no rescue, no helmets, no licensing, etc. I'm pretty happy about how we run things in NS, at least for our local orgs track days. Licensing and time with an instructor required. And we will not hesitate to black flag and sometimes end someone's day.
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May 23, 2020 01:55
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The track I want to run at requires a membership. $60k I think is the membership, plus event fee. Plus school fee. Luckily my friend already has the membership and he can bring guests on. But atleast with that membership fee they can actually afford a dedicated EMS unit. https://www.area27.ca/ Edit: LOL at people just jumping the wall and random drivers just getting out of their cars. jonathan fucked around with this message at 02:09 on May 23, 2020 |
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May 23, 2020 02:00
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