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Regarding Sucker Punch, I agree that its action exists in a very awkward space where it's way too abstract and detached. This discussion actually made me think about Inception, which is a pretty obviously related concept and I think I got some of the same feelings from the way it used its big setpieces. To me it felt like the disjointedness of the dreams in Inception is doing a very similar thing where they're kinda winking and saying "welp, time to do a snowy ski chase scene. why? because it works!" and I ended up feeling completely detached from a lot of its action. I do find myself much more interested in giving Sucker Punch a rewatch than Inception though, I've never seen the extended version.
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May 22, 2020 22:14
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Is there anyone especially mad that the Richard Donner cut of Superman 2 exists?
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May 22, 2020 22:28
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teagone posted:https://twitter.com/HarryJLennix/status/1263920905849147392 I hope Martian Manhunter cycles through a few different faces so they can bring in David Harewood for a quick shot.
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May 22, 2020 22:31
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Roth posted:Is there anyone especially mad that the Richard Donner cut of Superman 2 exists? Richard Lester?
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May 22, 2020 22:33
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Roth posted:Is there anyone especially mad that the Richard Donner cut of Superman 2 exists? As it exists I don't think it's as good as it could have been but that's not really the point. It just makes me thankful this is getting a proper release
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May 22, 2020 22:35
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I don't think it's glib, but I do think it's reductive. I'll try to elaborate. The misery is necessary for the fantasy. The catharsis of that misery is what gives it power. It's a nihilistic power fantasy because of course he's caught and going to the big house afterwards, but that's part of the fantasy. Having the guts to flame out and let that heat burn your enemies alive. Suffering is absolutely part of power fantasies, otherwise Jesus wouldn't be such a big deal in our world today. But there are degrees of suffering and Joker seemed to delve too deeply into the undignified end to hold up as a power fantasy. Like, Joker is loving pathetic, and he knows it. His whole struggle is really lovely, because it shouldn't have happened in a world that even approaches being just. Pushing back against that isn't the realization of a power fantasy, it's still too deep down in the poo poo. He gets to kill a lovely talk show host we get to know for a minute and a half.
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May 22, 2020 22:38
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I guess my biggest problem with the movie is the fact that the action is completely decontextualized and presented as a fantasy metaphor that reveals nothing about the characters and only thinly aligns with the plot. I will try to elaborate. It certainly could have been conveyed better, but one of the big jokes of the film is that the fantasy antagonists (ghouls, orks, robots...) are almost completely arbitrary. The dances are, after all, primarily ‘for’ the diegetic male audiences. So, for example, the scene with the robot drones on the train is characterization for the horrible chef character. He is, for whatever reason, mesmerized by the idea of humanity crushing these uppity subhumanoid machines. Part of this is of course the idea that the women are giving themselves up to protect him (hence the weird rage when they fail). The analogy isn’t really to The Matrix, because you never forget for a moment that the female characters are, diegetically, actresses - pretending to fight.
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May 22, 2020 22:51
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It certainly could have been conveyed better, but one of the big jokes of the film is that the fantasy antagonists (ghouls, orks, robots...) are almost completely arbitrary. The dances are, after all, primarily ‘for’ the diegetic male audiences. Right, and I think part of where the concept behind the whole movie fails is that you have to keep straight who fights whom for what reason. I'm not sure I even realized they fight the robots for the chef before I read this post, I think it's very easy to interpret the action scenes as this kind of very general generic struggle to achieve their goals.
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May 22, 2020 23:00
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Roth posted:Is there anyone especially mad that the Richard Donner cut of Superman 2 exists? Even ignoring the practical limitations (unfilmed footage), it's a bit of a disappointment that there wasn't more care put into it such as striking an original score, better editing, or effects that match the era - but I'm grateful to have it. I was one of the nerds hoping to see the Donner cut for ages, and it still felt special seeing unseen vintage footage of Reeve and Kidder interacting.
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May 22, 2020 23:04
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It certainly could have been conveyed better, but one of the big jokes of the film is that the fantasy antagonists (ghouls, orks, robots...) are almost completely arbitrary. The dances are, after all, primarily ‘for’ the diegetic male audiences. I agree but I think you got to the heart of my critique there. Like you said, dancing for the chef suddenly reveals that he's mesmerized by the idea of humanity crushing subhumanoid robots. But nowhere in the text is he EVER shown to have this trait for any reason at all! You just have to sort of accept that this was his secret desire and Babydoll is fulfilling it for him. And I think you can, it's not an incoherent film and it plays by its own rules, but that kind of disconnect is why I feel the movie doesn't work as well as it should and why I've described the fantasy sequences - as beautiful and well-executed as they are - as "free floating". The completely arbitrary fantasy antagonists are part of that - but the setting is also completely arbitrary, the technology used is completely arbitrary, etc. There doesn't seem to be an attempt at cohesiveness - which I understand is part of the critique, this is nerd catnip, hot gals with guns and mechs in classic nerd scenarios like sword-and-sorcery, steampunk war, or sci-fi planet, but the problem is the thematic disconnect that it brings. Again I stress that i think the critique of the movie is valid, but the stated goal of the film - right there in the title - is to be a "Sucker Punch", make the viewer drop their guard and then get hit by the ending. And I think that punch gets deflected, at least in my case, because even in my first watch through I never dropped my guard.
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May 22, 2020 23:13
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I guess my biggest problem with the movie is the fact that the action is completely decontextualized and presented as a fantasy metaphor that reveals nothing about the characters and only thinly aligns with the plot. I will try to elaborate. My own dumb obvservation, I recall when I first saw SP many years ago, I recall realizing that there was a special significance to the fight scenes, but unable to pinpoint exactly what it was , until I realized that the red thread connecting all of them was that they were set pieces popular in nerd culture. Samurai Anime, zombie nazis, fantasy orcs and dragons, sci fi robots, all variations of genres super popular with your nerdy male audience. And these action scenes inevitably occured while the women were being sexually exploited by men, hence I interpreted it as women fighting against the inherent sexism in these genres perpetuated by male nerds (doesn't matter if your woman is "strong" or "competent" in fights if she's being fetishised or sexualized,) using the only weapon available to them (their sexuality). But using sex to fight sexism is ultimately doomed to failure because you're still playing by the rules of sexist men. The only way sweety pea succeeded was by sacrificing herself, an act of love. There is no direct correlation between the action of the fight scenes and the "real" scenes because that was not the point of it. They are not really related in that sense, as I interpreted it. All in my own very basic opinion, of course.
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May 22, 2020 23:19
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Grendels Dad posted:Right, and I think part of where the concept behind the whole movie fails is that you have to keep straight who fights whom for what reason. I'm not sure I even realized they fight the robots for the chef before I read this post, I think it's very easy to interpret the action scenes as this kind of very general generic struggle to achieve their goals. Each fantasy set piece has elements that tie it back to the brothel's narrative layer. They're not super hard to pick up on, but they're also very abstractly represented, i.e., the fire crystals being the lighter.
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May 22, 2020 23:23
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Grendels Dad posted:Right, and I think part of where the concept behind the whole movie fails is that you have to keep straight who fights whom for what reason. I'm not sure I even realized they fight the robots for the chef before I read this post, I think it's very easy to interpret the action scenes as this kind of very general generic struggle to achieve their goals. To pinpoint the appeal, I say Snyder accomplished the “impossible” task of making an anti-war film. Like, the stuff about the treatment of actresses gets most of the attention, but the bigger criticism to me is its satire of nerd-faschismus. It presents the basic scenarios of, like, Lord Of The Rings in such a way that you’re almost completely disinvested. So what’s left is just to appreciate the skill of the performers and artists while asking why exactly nerds are so obsessed with superheroes slaughtering orks, hyper-nazis, and robot drones.
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May 22, 2020 23:26
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teagone posted:https://twitter.com/HarryJLennix/status/1263920905849147392  I remember when Snyder first posted about Martian Manhunter and so many people were saying “oh he’s just making stuff up since we’ll never see the SC”. He posted the MM scene back in early October so it was before WB called him about the SC. It’s interesting to look through his Vero feed and see how after early November he really ramped up the JL posting. Obviously that was after he got the call.
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May 22, 2020 23:39
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Wait I must've forgot about this... General Swanwick is Martian Manhunter?! E: I remember now, there was a storyboard he posted to that effect. If that makes it into ZSJL I'll lose my drat mind.
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May 23, 2020 00:15
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McSpanky posted:Wait I must've forgot about this... General Swanwick is Martian Manhunter?!
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May 23, 2020 00:16
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Whedon is not a talented artist. So I'm curious about your take on Whedon who is actually a hack but, perhaps because he's a hack, exemplifies a major style of blockbuster filmmaking.
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May 23, 2020 00:20
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Snyder said “Here’s something you probably didn’t know. I was able to shoot all of it except for the Harry Lennox side. It was my intention to do that in LA”
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May 23, 2020 00:23
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Wow, there really is something about Snyder's movies that just makes some people refuse to actually watch them as opposed to ranting about imagined flaws and bad politics isn't there? It's almost impressive, in a terrible way. Glad they're actually releasing the SnyderCut of JL, it'll give me an excuse to finally see MoS. I could make it a double feature with the BvS ultimate cut, I only saw the theatrical before.
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May 23, 2020 00:35
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Watching Man of Steel and BvS Ultimate Edition back-to-back is such a great movie experience. Highly recommended.
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May 23, 2020 00:42
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Man of Steel is great. Best cape movie and is an actual good movie movie. (I don't consider Blade a cape movie even though it's "technically" a superhero film.)
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May 23, 2020 00:44
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Man of Steel is great. Best cape movie and is an actual good movie movie. His jacket is very capelike
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May 23, 2020 01:14
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Mr. Apollo posted:Snyder said “Here’s something you probably didn’t know. I was able to shoot all of it except for the Harry Lennox side. It was my intention to do that in LA” I still maintain that whatever we get from all this will be way lamer than just a bunch of storyboards with Zack Snyder making all the sound effects with his mouth
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May 23, 2020 01:14
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RBA Starblade posted:I still maintain that whatever we get from all this will be way lamer than just a bunch of storyboards with Zack Snyder making all the sound effects with his mouth
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May 23, 2020 01:24
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With the talk of JL possibly being cut into episodes, I would live if they combined all the films - from MoS to BvS to JL into one big series. ZS expressed some interest in a big "supercut" in the past. https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/zack-snyder-supercut-man-steel-batman-superman/
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May 23, 2020 02:15
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How many dream sequences will the Snyder cut have? loving loads I hope, hes nailed every single one of them in the first two movies. I just finished BvS again and that Kevin Costner scene hits me harder every time.
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May 23, 2020 02:18
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Gorn Myson posted:How many dream sequences will the Snyder cut have?
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May 23, 2020 02:21
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I didn't think the Costner scene was a dream. I thought that was him actually communing with his spirit
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May 23, 2020 02:21
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Something very Silver Age about 'oh yeah, Superman can hike up into the spirit realm'
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May 23, 2020 02:47
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Gorn Myson posted:How many dream sequences will the Snyder cut have? The film will end with Snyder waking up, rolling out of bed, thinking for a moment, then grabbing a piece of paper and starting to write. The last shot is a slow zoom in until you can see the top of the page - "MARVEL'S AVENGERS"
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May 23, 2020 02:47
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Martman posted:Brainwashed Superman will be stuck in a strange dream where he has a cool mustache Which becomes a nightmare where his lower face transforms into John Travolta's
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May 23, 2020 03:19
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Dream sequences are great because they can get really weird with it.
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May 23, 2020 03:25
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RBA Starblade posted:The film will end with Snyder waking up, rolling out of bed, thinking for a moment, then grabbing a piece of paper and starting to write. “HOWARD THE DUCK”.
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May 23, 2020 03:49
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Gorn Myson posted:I just finished BvS again and that Kevin Costner scene hits me harder every time. It was even good when Terrio reused it in Star Wars.
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May 23, 2020 04:04
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I just don’t loving get it. How can people be this ignorant. From a discord server I’m in.
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May 23, 2020 05:15
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RBA Starblade posted:The film will end with Snyder waking up, rolling out of bed, thinking for a moment, then grabbing a piece of paper and starting to write. How about pull out to show a young autistic boy in the middle of Kansas holding a snow globe
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May 23, 2020 05:17
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I love Sucker Punch chat. My reading (which i think I'm cribbing from someone else here) is that it's about the inherent limitations of girl power in genre fiction. sure, they're empowered warrior women, even as they're fighting soldiers who don't want to be there, an opressed religious/ethnic minority (the orcs) or slave machines rebelling, but even as they're empowered within those scenes, they're both still trapped in an exploitative system. And, if, you incorporate the backstories for those fantasy worlds, just doing more oppression laterally. It's both a critique of the faux empowerment and a critique of the 'more female guards' school of liberalism. It's also about how real stories involving women aren't allowed to be told in hollywood. they have to be sexed up and then be transformed into sexy action films.
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May 23, 2020 07:54
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Vintersorg posted:I just don’t loving get it. How can people be this ignorant. From a discord server I’m in. Lol you think that’s bad? This is from a gaming forum I frequently visit:    I don’t even know how to start to engage with this stuff.
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May 23, 2020 11:49
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GoldenGun posted:I don’t even know how to start to engage with this stuff. the correct answer, which is the least satisfying answer, is "don't"; you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place, plus you already won! the snyder cut is real, and it's going to be good, because his last two Superman movies were good nothing else should matter and then, someday, for seemingly no reason, one of the Film Discourse thought leaders, seeing how the wind is blowing, will say Snyder is good, and everyone will follow
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May 23, 2020 13:58
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Yea to be honest if it's a community where folks can't believe that someone genuinely likes a particular director/movie, that they must be a contrarian because they can't even perceive of someone liking it? It's not a community worth being a part of.
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May 23, 2020 15:03
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