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Hal Incandenza
Feb 12, 2004

b-minus1 posted:

I’m probably going to be the lunch today and that’s fine. I’m by btw.
I just reread wins and although there isn’t a lot of content, I did find myself agreeing with him more often than not.


It seems like most of us at some point or another have expressed suspicion of hal and pander yet they have received few votes overall. I really think we need to flip one of them.

It still seems like the main case on Pander and I is that we swung the vote to protect chili from being lunched end of day yesterday so I guess I'm confused on why you'd vote either of us before chili if that's your thinking?

In a world where chili is town how would your case against me work? That's a serious question, not a snarky remark

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b-minus1
Jul 24, 2008

She's a maniac, maniac
on the floor
And she's dancing like she's never danced before
My case against you mainly boils down to what looked like opportunistic voting yesterday near the end of the day. If you are town and chili is also town, then I don’t know what to think. Actually, if chili is town then that means that scum had absolutely no pressure on them at any point yesterday. Which is not good and also appears to be happening today (because I’m town and the vote leader)

Cidrick
Jun 10, 2001

Praise the siamese
I have not been nearly as motivated as I'd like to be for this game and I apologize for that. A lot of my scum opinions have been waning and I'm at a point where I don't feel all that strongly about any candidates at the moment, so I'm gonna revisit a few folks.

Cidrick posted:

Argh you're not allowed to think the same people are scum as I do, you Mafioso filth

When I re-read this post this morning I laughed at myself, because I'm to the point where I feel like I'm clinging to a day 1 read on Chili without much evidence. His inflammatory posts have abated greatly on day 2. Aside from a feeble case on Pander, he's not striking me as scum nearly as much anymore. I think I've been carrying a day 1 joke-vote torch for too long.

---

I'm starting to change my mind on dy. This is partly for meta reasons - it's been many years, obviously, but I recall him being a lot more energetic and investigative on other plays when he's town because - by his own words in this thread - he enjoys puzzling out who the scum are. If he's scum, he's going to be less motivated to hunt. The other part of this read is that he's been "me too"-ing other actual cases. His own homegrown posts have been delving into mechanics more than actually scum hunting, like talking about role picking theory in day 1 (which, admittedly, I enjoyed, and felt town to me) and dissecting the choices that Voodoo made around his gavel of Spoonsy. The rest of his post history has been a lot of low-effort posts that haven't added much to the game in general, which on its own isn't a hugely scummy tell. However, I think it just adds additional evidence of his apathy towards figuring out who the scum are.

Dhaes and Voodoo are both firmly town in my mind right now. Pander is coming across as a frustrated townie to me, which I explained in my post against Chili's case on him, and further cemented by last night's back-and-forth with Keane.

Keane is hard for me to read, mostly because of his odd mix of flippant-mixed-with-serious posting, but the fact that he picked out a reasonably scummy post from wins instead of going after any of the popular candidates at the time seems pretty town to me, and the case on wins is pretty concise on its own. The fact that wins has abandoned this thread rather than try to refute it is more damning as time goes on.

I don't know how I feel about Hal and that on its own bothers me enough to make me suspicious. That said, I don't see the case around how he voted close to deadline as particularly damning, but if there's something else I should be paying attention to, I'm all ears.

And lastly, b-minus1. While I was in the process of re-reading and typing up all of this crap, he pulled the vanilla town claim out of his rear end. Basic Mafia Theory would suggest that vanilla town is the easiest thing for a scum to claim so it's almost certainly meaningless to base an opinion around, but it does more or less line up with how I might expect a vanilla player to act. Having never played with b-1 before, I can't make a meta read on his behavior, but based on what others have said, he's a better player than he's acting. Like I said (very) early on, his posts feel like he's baiting players, like he's trying to draw out scum who are looking for low-hanging fruit to attack.

From where I stand, wins is the best case right now.

##vote wins32767

If you've read this far, congrats. And sorry.

Cidrick
Jun 10, 2001

Praise the siamese

Chili posted:

Don't want to put b- at -1 just yet, but consider this a phantom vote

Time to put your money where your mouth is there, bud. wins and b-1 are both at 3.

Hal Incandenza
Feb 12, 2004

B- was... Next to last to pick, so he is very likely vanilla, so that's a pretty safe claim.

This is a tough setup to fakeclaim in obviously.

Hal Incandenza
Feb 12, 2004

b-minus1 posted:

My case against you mainly boils down to what looked like opportunistic voting yesterday near the end of the day. If you are town and chili is also town, then I don’t know what to think. Actually, if chili is town then that means that scum had absolutely no pressure on them at any point yesterday. Which is not good and also appears to be happening today (because I’m town and the vote leader)

This didn't really answer my question. So you think chili and I are both scum? Or do you think chili could be town and I just chose to shift to jammy because... He was higher on the role picking list?

b-minus1
Jul 24, 2008

She's a maniac, maniac
on the floor
And she's dancing like she's never danced before

Hal Incandenza posted:

This didn't really answer my question. So you think chili and I are both scum? Or do you think chili could be town and I just chose to shift to jammy because... He was higher on the role picking list?

I guess I don't have a definitive answer. I've been operating under the following assumptions: 1) voodoofly is town. 2) scum were definitely not going to let a no lunch happen on d1 and were content with letting the spoonsy lunch play out. After the spoonsy dayvig, scum could have chosen to let the day end without another lunch but I really think they were somehow involved with late pivot to jam. the questions that remain to be answered are: did scum pander lead the way, or did scum jump on the jam wagon once it had some momentum to ensure the lunch; and was all of this an attempt to save scum chili?

Pander
Oct 9, 2007

Fear is the glue that holds society together. It's what makes people suppress their worst impulses. Fear is power.

And at the end of fear, oblivion.



Dhaes posted:

did pander ever expand / explain that whole "scum before me in the draft" thing?

pander, if you haven't, could you do so?
I think anyone with half a brain could piece together from my statement earlier than I'm vanilla. I went for dramatic bodyguard and didn't get it. I was just looking through the OP again after the day started to piece things together and it jumped out at me how brazen it was to kill highwire. I figured with highwire dead, it meant whoever took my role was scum since the scum felt safe to not get got by it.

I shouldn't have made that statement because there is a small chance a towny did something dumb/wifomy with it, like assume a doc or watcher would prevent the scum from going after highwire, and use it on someone else they felt might be a NK target.

Pander
Oct 9, 2007

Fear is the glue that holds society together. It's what makes people suppress their worst impulses. Fear is power.

And at the end of fear, oblivion.



b-minus1 posted:

I guess I don't have a definitive answer. I've been operating under the following assumptions: 1) voodoofly is town. 2) scum were definitely not going to let a no lunch happen on d1 and were content with letting the spoonsy lunch play out. After the spoonsy dayvig, scum could have chosen to let the day end without another lunch but I really think they were somehow involved with late pivot to jam. the questions that remain to be answered are: did scum pander lead the way, or did scum jump on the jam wagon once it had some momentum to ensure the lunch; and was all of this an attempt to save scum chili?

Eight people voted jam, which means at least five town participated in his lynch. So, it's hard to say it was a scum driven lynch unless you know either chili is scum, you know scum were on it, or you're making poo poo up.

And if you're saying "well even if chili is town, it's scummy to lynch jam", then you're saying between two town lynches it's scummy to lynch one towny but not the other.

That's nonsense.

mega dy
Dec 6, 2003

Chili posted:

Don't want to put b- at -1 just yet, but consider this a phantom vote

Why?

Chili
Jan 23, 2004

college kids ain't shit


Fun Shoe

Didn't want a cheeky hammer that ended the discussion and didn't give b- a chance to finally provide some content. But they haven't done that yet and basically seemed to have resigned soooooo

##vote b-

b-minus1
Jul 24, 2008

She's a maniac, maniac
on the floor
And she's dancing like she's never danced before
well, pander and a few others have essentially ripped every post ive made to shreds, so it's been a little difficult to get more engaged.

I don't have a scum read on wins, but two of my town reads are voting him. I know I am town so i will ##vote wins partially to save myself but also to see how everyone else votes

votefinder
Jul 6, 2010

scoop scoop
Votecount for Day 2

b-minus1 (4): Dhaes, dy., Cidrick, Hal Incandenza, Cidrick, Chili
wins32767 (3): CCKeane, Chili, Cidrick, Chili, b-minus1
Hal Incandenza (0): Voodoofly, b-minus1, Voodoofly, b-minus1
Pander (0): Chili, Chili
Chili (0): Dhaes, Dhaes, Cidrick, Voodoofly, Voodoofly, Cidrick

Not Voting (3): Pander, Voodoofly, wins32767

With 10 alive, it's 6 votes to execute. The current deadline is May 27th, 2020 at 6 p.m. EDT -- that's in about 6 hours, 44 minutes.

CCKeane
Jan 28, 2008

my shit posts don't die, they multiply

Man I feel like the push on b- is wrong even though he's scummy?

And I feel like Chili's posts around b- are hitting me wrong.

Voodoofly
Jul 3, 2002

Some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help

So Pander has outed that one of these four people is a dramatic bodyguard who did not protect Highwire last night.

3,16 Highwire
5,3 Cidrick
6,9 Jamuraan
7,1 Dhaes
8,3 Chili
2,1 dy.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. One the one hand, I absolutely agree that it is very likely that the dramatic bodyguard is scum because scum had no issue going after Highwire. On the other hand, I've done this exact same thing and been wrong in a WIFOA game. But I want to make sure this isn't lost in the discussion.

Reading over things now, but honestly my gut check is to go back onto Chili. He answers a lot of questions around other people, he is on that list, and he was posting scummy as hell on Day 1.

mega dy
Dec 6, 2003

Cidrick posted:

I'm starting to change my mind on dy. This is partly for meta reasons - it's been many years, obviously, but I recall him being a lot more energetic and investigative on other plays when he's town because - by his own words in this thread - he enjoys puzzling out who the scum are. If he's scum, he's going to be less motivated to hunt. The other part of this read is that he's been "me too"-ing other actual cases. His own homegrown posts have been delving into mechanics more than actually scum hunting, like talking about role picking theory in day 1 (which, admittedly, I enjoyed, and felt town to me) and dissecting the choices that Voodoo made around his gavel of Spoonsy. The rest of his post history has been a lot of low-effort posts that haven't added much to the game in general, which on its own isn't a hugely scummy tell. However, I think it just adds additional evidence of his apathy towards figuring out who the scum are.
Alas, I am imperfect. While I disagree that I was "me tooing" cases, I definitely was focusing more on people who were attacking me, which I realized and prompted my reread. That's how I wound up on b-minus. Which I didn't think was a "me too" case?

What posts do you mean where I focus on mechanics, besides the early-game ones around role selection? I'm not sure what you're talking about there.

Voodoofly
Jul 3, 2002

Some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help

Voodoofly posted:

So Pander has outed that one of these four people is a dramatic bodyguard who did not protect Highwire last night.

3,16 Highwire
5,3 Cidrick
6,9 Jamuraan
7,1 Dhaes
8,3 Chili
2,1 dy.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. One the one hand, I absolutely agree that it is very likely that the dramatic bodyguard is scum because scum had no issue going after Highwire. On the other hand, I've done this exact same thing and been wrong in a WIFOA game. But I want to make sure this isn't lost in the discussion.

Reading over things now, but honestly my gut check is to go back onto Chili. He answers a lot of questions around other people, he is on that list, and he was posting scummy as hell on Day 1.

Or Pander is lying scum. Let's not forget that part idiot me with no coffee thinking aha!

CCKeane
Jan 28, 2008

my shit posts don't die, they multiply

Voodoofly posted:

So Pander has outed that one of these four people is a dramatic bodyguard who did not protect Highwire last night.

3,16 Highwire
5,3 Cidrick
6,9 Jamuraan
7,1 Dhaes
8,3 Chili
2,1 dy.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. One the one hand, I absolutely agree that it is very likely that the dramatic bodyguard is scum because scum had no issue going after Highwire. On the other hand, I've done this exact same thing and been wrong in a WIFOA game. But I want to make sure this isn't lost in the discussion.

Reading over things now, but honestly my gut check is to go back onto Chili. He answers a lot of questions around other people, he is on that list, and he was posting scummy as hell on Day 1.

I think I would move my vote to Chili pretty comfortably yeah.

Not sure I agree with Panders read on the dramatic bodyguard being scum, although I was also thinking the doc/dramatic bodyguard could have been scum at the start of the day.

I can see it being somebody making a mistake, I guess.


Do any of the other four want to weigh in there?

mega dy
Dec 6, 2003

Voodoofly posted:

I'm not sure how I feel about this. One the one hand, I absolutely agree that it is very likely that the dramatic bodyguard is scum because scum had no issue going after Highwire. On the other hand, I've done this exact same thing and been wrong in a WIFOA game. But I want to make sure this isn't lost in the discussion.
Townies makes boneheaded plays all the time, probably more commonly than they make the right ones. I think this speculation is both useless and wrong.

This line of thinking is also particularly interesting when compared to your earlier post that seems to directly contradict it:

Voodoofly posted:

In one of the games I played I swore that I had scum dead to rights because I was like third in draft role and missed on watcher. Scum killed first position night 1 and I assumed that position two must be a scum watcher because no way they risk going after 1st position if a town watcher exists right? Nope totally wrong and scum just gambled and we got destroyed that game.

mega dy
Dec 6, 2003

CCKeane posted:

I think I would move my vote to Chili pretty comfortably yeah.

Not sure I agree with Panders read on the dramatic bodyguard being scum, although I was also thinking the doc/dramatic bodyguard could have been scum at the start of the day.

I can see it being somebody making a mistake, I guess.


Do any of the other four want to weigh in there?
I really, really can't figure you out.

You seem very confident that wins is scum and have a vote down on him:

CCKeane posted:

Wins is scum.

##vote: wins

He is one of two viable execution candidates today. Why are you trying to pivot off of him now to someone with no votes?

b-minus1
Jul 24, 2008

She's a maniac, maniac
on the floor
And she's dancing like she's never danced before

Voodoofly posted:

I'm not sure how I feel about this. One the one hand, I absolutely agree that it is very likely that the dramatic bodyguard is scum because scum had no issue going after Highwire. On the other hand, I've done this exact same thing and been wrong in a WIFOA game. But I want to make sure this isn't lost in the discussion.

I agree with this. I brought this up at the start of d2 when this Dhaes post made me :raise:

Dhaes posted:

well i am just shocked

i dont suppose a watcher saw him get killed?

b-minus1 posted:

Mainly because of this post (above)
Something about this post pings me. It’s like he already is aware that a watcher has no result that would implicate scum in the night kill

High wire clearly knew he had a target on his back so it is a little odd that he didn’t get any protection.

but didn't explain my entire thought process. I think the scum have the bodyguard role, possibly the tracker/watcher role too. It's also interesting that dhaes specifically asked about a watcher result instead of also asking if anyone was tracked to highwire.

CCKeane
Jan 28, 2008

my shit posts don't die, they multiply

dy. posted:

I really, really can't figure you out.

You seem very confident that wins is scum and have a vote down on him:


He is one of two viable execution candidates today. Why are you trying to pivot off of him now to someone with no votes?

Multiple people can be scum and getting people to lay down opinions on other players is useful. I feel like Chili's pivot to b- felt really off and I don't like it.

Voodoofly
Jul 3, 2002

Some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help

dy. posted:

Townies makes boneheaded plays all the time, probably more commonly than they make the right ones. I think this speculation is both useless and wrong.

This line of thinking is also particularly interesting when compared to your earlier post that seems to directly contradict it:

You don't need to remind me that townies are not perfect in their execution of grandiose plans in this game.

I also directly referred to the fact that I know its a bad idea to solely rest on breaking the game open via role speculation and night actions, as I said in that earlier post. Not sure what is interesting when I said the same thing?That doesn't mean I'm not willing to put some weight into it, especially if I'm trying to decide between a few different people that I otherwise consider about equal.

mega dy
Dec 6, 2003

Voodoofly posted:

You don't need to remind me that townies are not perfect in their execution of grandiose plans in this game.

I also directly referred to the fact that I know its a bad idea to solely rest on breaking the game open via role speculation and night actions, as I said in that earlier post. Not sure what is interesting when I said the same thing?That doesn't mean I'm not willing to put some weight into it, especially if I'm trying to decide between a few different people that I otherwise consider about equal.
Upon rereading your comment, I mentally glossed-over the part where you qualified it and were looking at it two ways, so I retract that bit.

Voodoofly
Jul 3, 2002

Some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help

b-minus1 posted:

well, pander and a few others have essentially ripped every post ive made to shreds, so it's been a little difficult to get more engaged.

I don't have a scum read on wins, but two of my town reads are voting him. I know I am town so i will ##vote wins partially to save myself but also to see how everyone else votes

Who do you think is scum? You got nothing to hide at this point. Just gut it out and lay it bear don't worry about quotes or anything. I'm seriously debating voting wins just to keep you alive but it's really drat hard for me to want to keep you alive when you aren't actively calling people scum.

mega dy
Dec 6, 2003

CCKeane posted:

I think I would move my vote to Chili pretty comfortably yeah.

CCKeane posted:

Multiple people can be scum and getting people to lay down opinions on other players is useful. I feel like Chili's pivot to b- felt really off and I don't like it.
For sure, but like, timing is a thing. We're 5 hours to deadline, you have your favored target squarely in your sights. You weren't just trying to solicit opinion on Chili, you specifically offered to move your vote.

mega dy
Dec 6, 2003

Also who are the four and what do you want them to weigh in on? Speculation on who the dramatic bodyguard is and whether they are town or scum?

Chili
Jan 23, 2004

college kids ain't shit


Fun Shoe
I will say that I am not the dramatic bodyguard, nor did I try to be. For whatever that's worth.

mega dy
Dec 6, 2003

Can we not do that?

Given how this game has gone down, dramatic bodyguard is one of the few remaining roles with a decent chance to flush out scum. We should probably not have a discussion that could flush it out at this point in the game.

CCKeane
Jan 28, 2008

my shit posts don't die, they multiply

dy. posted:

Also who are the four and what do you want them to weigh in on? Speculation on who the dramatic bodyguard is and whether they are town or scum?

I guess a response to Panders statement.

Voodoofly
Jul 3, 2002

Some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help

Chili posted:

I will say that I am not the dramatic bodyguard, nor did I try to be. For whatever that's worth.

Like, why would you do this? How on earth is this a townie thing to do?

Voodoofly
Jul 3, 2002

Some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help

dy. posted:

Can we not do that?

Given how this game has gone down, dramatic bodyguard is one of the few remaining roles with a decent chance to flush out scum. We should probably not have a discussion that could flush it out at this point in the game.

THIS!

Nobody should be claiming or not claiming or whatever the hell Chili did.

mega dy
Dec 6, 2003

Voodoofly posted:

Like, why would you do this? How on earth is this a townie thing to do?
Yeah, agreed. This is making me super suspicious of both Chili and Keane.

Chili
Jan 23, 2004

college kids ain't shit


Fun Shoe
Ugh sorry. I'm at the park with my kid and I just checked in and didn't think. That was dumb. Putting my phone away for now, I'll be back later. Sorry.

b-minus1
Jul 24, 2008

She's a maniac, maniac
on the floor
And she's dancing like she's never danced before

Voodoofly posted:

Who do you think is scum? You got nothing to hide at this point. Just gut it out and lay it bear don't worry about quotes or anything. I'm seriously debating voting wins just to keep you alive but it's really drat hard for me to want to keep you alive when you aren't actively calling people scum.

Scum: Dhaes, Hal
Lean scum pander, chili
Neutral on dy wins (I’m leaning town on dy tbh)
Town: cidrick, keane, voodoofly

I know I’m voting wins right now but I would switch to one of my scum/lean scum reads. Wins needs to contribute something today though. I don’t feel comfortable letting lurkers live too much longer especially if we mislunch today

Cidrick
Jun 10, 2001

Praise the siamese

dy. posted:

Alas, I am imperfect. While I disagree that I was "me tooing" cases, I definitely was focusing more on people who were attacking me, which I realized and prompted my reread. That's how I wound up on b-minus. Which I didn't think was a "me too" case?

Your mentions of b-1 are fairly innocuous until dhaes makes the case on b-1 after the day 1 flip, and then Voodoo's mentioning of b-1's vote on you leading up to the day 1 lynch. Before you do your own re-read post you even quote Dhaes's entire lumpenlist with what is effectively a "me too".

dy. posted:

What posts do you mean where I focus on mechanics, besides the early-game ones around role selection? I'm not sure what you're talking about there.

It's not really a good use of time at the moment to start linking to posts, but I'll clarify that I'm speaking specifically about drilling into the details of Voodoo's dayvig and the motivations behind why he used it in the way he did. My issue is more to the point that you spent a good amount of time beating a horse that was already dead and rotting, instead of moving on or trying to build support for the vote on b-minus1 since you seem very much convinced of the case on him.

Voodoofly
Jul 3, 2002

Some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help

Someone give a one sentence case on Wins because I just read over him and other than having a severe lack of posts I'm not finding a lot scummy. To me it looks like people are taking one post and making a big deal out of it.

POST B- POST!

Voodoofly
Jul 3, 2002

Some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help

##vote Chili.

Will also vote Hal for same thing. I don't want to vote B- or Wins right now.

WINS please come post because I'm probably voting you over b-.

Cidrick
Jun 10, 2001

Praise the siamese

CCKeane posted:

Do any of the other four want to weigh in there?

Others have beaten me to the punch while I was replying to dy, but absolutely loving not.

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mega dy
Dec 6, 2003

Cidrick posted:

Your mentions of b-1 are fairly innocuous until dhaes makes the case on b-1 after the day 1 flip, and then Voodoo's mentioning of b-1's vote on you leading up to the day 1 lynch. Before you do your own re-read post you even quote Dhaes's entire lumpenlist with what is effectively a "me too".


It's not really a good use of time at the moment to start linking to posts, but I'll clarify that I'm speaking specifically about drilling into the details of Voodoo's dayvig and the motivations behind why he used it in the way he did. My issue is more to the point that you spent a good amount of time beating a horse that was already dead and rotting, instead of moving on or trying to build support for the vote on b-minus1 since you seem very much convinced of the case on him.
Re: b-minus - from my perspective, that was a fresh case that had nothing to do with Dhaes's post. I reread the thread with fresh eyes and that was my takeaway.

Re: Voodoofly - that wasn't discussion of mechanics, that was discussion of player behavior. It would be crazy to not discuss what Voodoo's actions might say about his alignment.

I don't know what more you want from me on b-minus. I don't really do big cases, I don't think they work and frankly I'm not really interested in playing that way. I voted him and re-iterated my support for the vote and he is now the vote leader. I really don't see your point here.

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