Ridicule Audiophiles - Find the cat shit's resonant frequency

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Inspect Your Gadgets > Ridicule Audiophiles - Find the cat shit's resonant frequency

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Theris: Oct 9, 2007

GreenBuckanneer posted:

I usually just listen to my DT990 that I inherited from the 90's? off of my motherboard.

It seems fine but I'm looking for a cheap upgrade. What would be a good and cheap DAC with a decent upgrade here?

Fiio E10k used to be the easy answer to this but I don't know if anything has changed in the few years since I bought mine. (For my DT990s, in fact.)

Also, there's a headphones thread.

# ? May 27, 2020 18:49

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# ? Apr 20, 2024 04:23

qirex: Feb 15, 2001

Dirt Road Junglist posted:

You would think digital fidelity and "perfect reproduction" would mean something, but no, audiophiles love them some lossy, distorting, electrically unstable poo poo instead.

Digital was more expensive, for a while. Then once it got cheap and what used to take a whole stack of gear [switching, preamp, EQ, crossover, conversion] could be done perfectly by a single $2 chip the industry pivoted back to the �good old days.� MQA is a brilliant effort to reintroduce the complexity and bullshit mystique of analog to digital.

The same thing happened with wristwatches, when quartz first came out they were full on status symbols but they got super cheap the industry saved itself by romanticizing the �soul� and �heritage� of mechanical movements and jacking prices to the moon even though the best mechanical watch is less accurate and durable than a $10 Casio.

# ? May 27, 2020 19:35

A Lone Girl Flier: Sep 29, 2009; This post is dedicated to all those who fell by the forums, for nothing is wasted, and every apparent failure is but a challenge to others.

Has anyone made the argument where recording engineers working in tube's heyday understood the colouration tubes brought to the sound of a record, so the only accurate way to play a record back is on a tube amp?

# ? May 27, 2020 22:58

ssb: Feb 16, 2006; WOULD YOU ACCOMPANY ME ON A BRISK WALK? I WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK WITH YOU!!

qirex posted:

The same thing happened with wristwatches, when quartz first came out they were full on status symbols but they got super cheap the industry saved itself by romanticizing the �soul� and �heritage� of mechanical movements and jacking prices to the moon even though the best mechanical watch is less accurate and durable than a $10 Casio.

I think mechanical watches are cool as gently caress and I love to look at them, especially any that you can see some of the internal workings on. The better ones are incredibly amazing and precise engineering, and they're more beautiful pieces of art. If I had $infinite I'd buy one of those long before I bought any audiophile woo-woo. I don't think they're really in the same category, nobody is arguing that a mechanical watch keeps better time.

Edit: I'd say it's a better comparison to "why do we need paintings if we have photographs?" although that's not really a great comparison either. I'm just saying a good mechanical watch is more a work of art.

ssb fucked around with this message at 14:55 on May 29, 2020

# ? May 29, 2020 14:30

qirex: Feb 15, 2001

shortspecialbus posted:

I think mechanical watches are cool as gently caress and I love to look at them, especially any that you can see some of the internal workings on. The better ones are incredibly amazing and precise engineering, and they're more beautiful pieces of art. If I had $infinite I'd buy one of those long before I bought any audiophile woo-woo. I don't think they're really in the same category, nobody is arguing that a mechanical watch keeps better time.

Edit: I'd say it's a better comparison to "why do we need paintings if we have photographs?" although that's not really a great comparison either. I'm just saying a good mechanical watch is more a work of art.

Pretty much every watch under 5 figures [and a bunch over that, have you seen Rolex prices lately?] is not a work of art unless the dial was hand painted or something. Almost the entirely of the fancy watch industry is just the same handful of movements designed prior to the 1960s made almost entirely in an automated fashion lightly decorated to order so they can call them "in house" and assembled quickly by a Real Swiss Person with a prestigious brand name purchased by a private equity firm in the 80s. I like watches but I can't help being cynical about the vast majority of the industry being the same watches only differentiated by the case, dial and hands and what kind of black and white photographs are in their ads. Careful assembly is not "engineering," nor is it artistic IMO. The basic design of analog movements has barely changed for most of a century, that's not the sign of an industry trying to do any significant amount of engineering.

This Calatrava movement, for example, is super nice [and was legitimately hand made unlike almost every Rolex/Omega/Tag/Breitling/JLC/Tudor/Zenith/etc.] but it's the watch equivalent of a vacuum tube, something that looks really neat but is objectively worse and more fiddly because that's the mystique and romance of the whole thing. It's better because it's worse, that's what gives it "soul" or "character."

There's nothing wrong with enjoying looking at neat things but shiny gewgaws for wealthy people aren't generally art. Faberge eggs aren't held in the kind of esteem impressionist paintings are.

# ? May 29, 2020 16:43

Fantastic Foreskin: Jan 6, 2013; A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.

(Men's) watches are just jewelry for men. Much like audiophile poo poo they exist to be expensive, however afaik they don't attract tedious dipshits who want to feel technological superiority while flaunting their wealth.

# ? May 29, 2020 17:03

Zorak of Michigan: Jun 10, 2006

Obviously some of you don't hang out on forums frequented by watch snobs. They generally ignore the fact that mechanical movements are inferior to quartz and focus on rationalizing what is clearly conspicuous consumption and elitism. There are tedious dipshits aplenty.

# ? May 29, 2020 18:32

GonadTheBallbarian: Jul 23, 2007

Zorak of Michigan posted:

tedious dipshits aplenty.

That is an excellent band name

# ? May 29, 2020 18:44

grack: Jan 10, 2012; COACH TOTORO SAY REFEREE CAN BANISH WHISTLE TO LAND OF WIND AND GHOSTS!

Zorak of Michigan posted:

Obviously some of you don't hang out on forums frequented by watch snobs. They generally ignore the fact that mechanical movements are inferior to quartz and focus on rationalizing what is clearly conspicuous consumption and elitism. There are tedious dipshits aplenty.

I've seen posts, and frankly, entire threads, on watchuseek that make even the worst audiophiles look intelligent and well-reasoned. The crown jewel for me was some guy posted, totally without irony, that seeing a stepped second hand "made him sick to his stomach." I've also seen multi-page threads of people claiming that one brand ripped off another for something so spectacularly inane as how hour markers are oriented on the face of a watch.

# ? May 29, 2020 18:54

Olympic Mathlete: Feb 25, 2011

I've never delved into the watch thing, I'm glad to know it's just another sad little world where dudes gather and chat endlessly about things that are objectively worse performing at a particular job though.

# ? May 29, 2020 19:35

Fantastic Foreskin: Jan 6, 2013; A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.

Zorak of Michigan posted:

Obviously some of you don't hang out on forums frequented by watch snobs. They generally ignore the fact that mechanical movements are inferior to quartz and focus on rationalizing what is clearly conspicuous consumption and elitism. There are tedious dipshits aplenty.

Can't say that I do, I had just hoped that watchmen were too rich to care about timekeeping.

# ? May 29, 2020 19:41

GnarlyCharlie4u: Sep 23, 2007; I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof

GonadTheBallbarian posted:

That is an excellent band name

Actually Inferior to Quartz is the band. Tedious Dipshits Aplenty is their third album.

# ? May 29, 2020 20:09

qirex: Feb 15, 2001

Did somebody say tedious dipshits?

quote:

Nah, just common sense. When you take a photo with higher resolution, the more detail you will see. Similarly, the better the quality of your components, the more details that get through. These are subtle, you do have to be the type of person who closes their eyes and LISTENS to music.

What you are doing is pretending to be special and have all the knowledge. You want to save people who do not need saved. No one should be spending lots of money for cables and wires for a modest system. Most people realize that.
Your nonsensical references to lack of science to defend your beliefs is ridiculous to those who have better equipment as well as those who make a living reviewing audio equipment.

e: found a better one

quote:

Let's take 100 tiny un-insulated strands of wire, lay them out each 1" apart, then connect them together only at each end (*) -- we'll call that "wire A".

Now, let's "knit" all those strands tightly together -- we'll call that "wire B".

How should we expect the two "wires" to measure, electrically?

Now, again keeping in mind that each little strand is un-insulated, so it's not like we're creating a "twisted pair" wire here, if we get more exotic in the "knitting scheme" used by "wire B", can we effect electrical change in the wire?

Finally, let's take "wire A" and bunch it into 4 25-strand braids, thinly insulate each, braid those, then twist the ends of each of the 4 strands together -- now what? Now we're beginning to create (for lack of a better term) a "transformer-like-thing", right? I would certainly expect a change in the wire measurements now, no?

Now, of course, even if every theoretical wire I've proposed does measure 100% differently, if the amplifier you're using attempts to be a "pure-voltage-source" (and it has the current reserves to drive your "wire+xover+driver" load), then it really "shouldn't matter" to your ears. I mean, minus the potential HF losses, for which can be compensated, and easily, if they become audible. Of course, a lot of old ears probably won't hear them anyway...so, there's that.

That said, all bets are off when you have an amplifier that isn't trying to be a voltage-source. More, "pure voltage-source" is theoretical, yes? So, certainly there are practical limitations. However, there are also perceptual limits and, fortunately, much bigger distortions in the loudspeakers and rooms themselves that swamp anything "exposed" by the amplifier limitations (unless, of course, it is just a terribly bad amplifier!).

Which is to say, there is indeed much more than the "simplicity" put forth by some posters. One tiny set of equations does not the full system of equations make! Once one has the "full system" to consider (amp->speaker->room->ears->brain) many of the differences that "can be computed" dilute to "inaudible" due to factors in the full system. Which is to say, they become "lost in the noise". Primary among that "noise" is your bloody ears have known and tested limitations due to both their anatomy and the signal processor (brain) behind them! Indeed, some of these limitations (sighted bias by the brain) account for much of what one "hears" when they "listen to wires" in "sighted conditions"! One does not have to agree, but all current science does. More, there doesn't seem to be updated peer-reviewed research to suggest otherwise w.r.t. the audibility of wires -- at least, that is, wires that aren't designed to be equalizers; some (that should be avoided, IMO) are!

One may ask why no one funds additional research; especially if there's so much money to be had by proving (simple) wires make an audible difference. Alas, there's no reason, there's enough money to be had from the gullible and no more money than marketing (often simply by attending shows to which their target audience flocks) need be spent. All the real consensus in the scientific community has been reached and that was...what...half-a-century ago (and more, lol).... Yet, here we are, what feels like eons later still debating this rubbish when the real science has long surpassed it. Better, in the process, we have built amplifiers and speakers whose performance is better than ever (if transparency is the goal) because real scientists have progressed the SotA by measuring and focusing on what does matter!

Oh, and one more thing, just because I know it'll rub some better than others -- the real enemies of transparency, IMO? The room, movement, and heat (i.e., power). The room contributes most of the sound. Movement, e.g., of a cone, creates distortion (how much does a drum skin move when struck? (**)). Heat, while it just sucks in general for electrical devices, in speakers causes power compression. So, I suggest the "compression drivers suck" and "large bass drivers are slow" people re-read this paragraph until it sinks in! While you do that, I'll admit that there are many ways to skin a cat (e.g., compression drivers "may suck on some horns" and even then can compromise in other areas (e.g., head-in-vice), so...certainly one can skin it differently (and possibly, that skinning is just a different horn or throat size...or speaker topology that doesn't use them)).

(*) I suppose it imposes a practical issue getting all this disjoint wire bunched to a singular point connection just at "the end", but...let's "pretend".

(**) yes, I know a drum skin and speaker cone are different -- tension but one biggy. Accept it as the best analogy my feeble mind could muster -- can my point remain?

# ? May 29, 2020 20:29

TheMadMilkman: Dec 10, 2007

qirex posted:

Did somebody say tedious dipshits?

e: found a better one

I like the first one more, personally. Nobody hates blind testing more than professional reviewers, because blind testing shows that they're completely full of it. Being a professional reviewer is much more about being a skilled writer (and, these days, video producer) than about being able to hear well.

I mean, I like this stuff. I like cool-looking tube amps. I like listening to massive speakers that cost more than my house. But I get really tired of this idea that money = quality. I especially get tired of this idea that old technology (tubes, vinyl, etc.) is inherently superior. Just admit that you think it's fun, you like it, and that's how you want to spend your money. There's literally no shame in that. Heck, it's honestly more empowering than claiming superiority, because it tells people that you really, truly don't care what they think.

I mean, if people honestly cared about fidelity to the source above all other things, we'd spend a lot more time talking about active speakers and room correction, and way less time talking how a NOS Mullard tube really opened up the soundstage. We'd also spend a lot of time talking about the Circle of Confusion, and why mastering really needs to have a standard target curve so that we know what we're getting.

One of these days I'll sit down and write out some of the BS that's been fed to me at audio shows, as well as the few times that the manufacturers were actually honest about things.

# ? May 29, 2020 20:59

qirex: Feb 15, 2001

It would be so simple to just say "I like the sound of my system the best" and be done with it but the hardcore audiophile craves that smug self satisfaction of their dollars resulting in objective superiority being confirmed by a professional reviewer or some guys on a forum who all spent 5 grand on the same DAC [or heard it at a show] circlejerking about it.

# ? May 29, 2020 21:02

Combat Pretzel: Jun 23, 2004; No, seriously... what kurds?!

Zorak of Michigan posted:

Obviously some of you don't hang out on forums frequented by watch snobs. They generally ignore the fact that mechanical movements are inferior to quartz and focus on rationalizing what is clearly conspicuous consumption and elitism. There are tedious dipshits aplenty.

Considering there's chess players on Twitch now and causing huge amounts of drama, related to elitism, too, I'm surprised by nothing.

# ? May 29, 2020 21:09

ssb: Feb 16, 2006; WOULD YOU ACCOMPANY ME ON A BRISK WALK? I WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK WITH YOU!!

Zorak of Michigan posted:

Obviously some of you don't hang out on forums frequented by watch snobs. They generally ignore the fact that mechanical movements are inferior to quartz and focus on rationalizing what is clearly conspicuous consumption and elitism. There are tedious dipshits aplenty.

No, I don't. I just like mechanical watches and think a lot of them are pretty :shrug:

Whether they meet the definition of "art" or not I dunno, I think they can.

I'm not pretending they're worth the money, which is why I said I'd get one if I had $infinite, and I'm certainly not claiming they're better in any way.

I also don't really feel that strongly about this. I've always just liked watches somewhat. I've never had a watch that cost more than about $275, and these days I wear a ZeTime that my wife got me.

# ? May 30, 2020 00:56

namlosh: Feb 11, 2014; I name this haircut "The Sad Rhino".

I have no idea if it's audio woo or not... but the wikipedia article isn't doing it any favors:

https://houston.craigslist.org/ele/d/sugar-land-jbl-paragon-c44-speaker/7126529305.html
$17,500 40 year old speaker

I noticed it and figured I'd share here.

screenshotted in case it's gone:

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? May 31, 2020 04:57

A Lone Girl Flier: Sep 29, 2009; This post is dedicated to all those who fell by the forums, for nothing is wasted, and every apparent failure is but a challenge to others.

Reminds me of these: http://duntech.com/products/sovereign.html

# ? May 31, 2020 05:54

EL BROMANCE: Jun 10, 2006; COWABUNGA DUDES!
🥷🐢😬

Would look lovely next to my Cray.

# ? May 31, 2020 05:54

Combat Pretzel: Jun 23, 2004; No, seriously... what kurds?!

My current phone has almost 50x the processing power than that Cray supercomputer displayed in Sneakers.

# ? May 31, 2020 07:09

TheMadMilkman: Dec 10, 2007

The JBL Paragon commands ridiculous prices because it�s rare and it�s gorgeous. Those pictures don�t do it justice at all. I�ve always wanted to hear one, and if I was ridiculously wealthy I�d probably own one. It would be an awesome conversation piece.

https://youtu.be/IglVJbfDEGM shows a nice refinished one.

# ? May 31, 2020 08:32

Olympic Mathlete: Feb 25, 2011

I initially thought the tweeters were adjustable until I clicked the ad to take a closer look. It's using the front curved panel as a reflector a la Bang & Olufsen's acoustic lens but like 50 years sooner. It also has a couple of things (ring radiator overtone reproducers...?!) just inside the mouth which look on drawings to be too small to be mids but they certainly seem to be wired in and doing something! Fascinating speaker and at 2.7m long, it's a big fucker too.

Olympic Mathlete fucked around with this message at 13:15 on May 31, 2020

# ? May 31, 2020 13:12

TTerrible: Jul 15, 2005

Yeah that thing owns and I�d buy it if I had that cash.

# ? Jun 1, 2020 02:48

qirex: Feb 15, 2001

One of my favorite audiophile product categories are things that only exist to solve problems created by other audiophile products. I present: C-LOCK

quote:

Many of today�s High-End audio components claim to reach for perfection. However, with power cable connection, �perfectionism� usually ends�But in fact, everything begins right here � as your components and/or Power Conditioner are supplied with essential energy through this connection! Therefore, this connection must be maintained absolutely secure.

And more than this: Reliably free of vibrations, resonances and movements causing short transients�

In the real world of High-End Audio, most AfterMarket power cables are usually very heavy and inflexible. Your standard wall power outlet isn�t intended for such heavy loads. Consequently, the contacts in the standard wall sockets are very overloaded, bent and can even be broken.

But how much for this amazing technology? Block Audio has a whole range of C-LOCK products from the affordable $49 C-LOCK Lite all the way up to the $349 milled aluminum C-LOCK SE². But how can you decide which C-LOCK is right for your system? Here's some helpful diagrams:

Now you may think this looks like a Tonka truck Tire glued to a 99 cent Home Depot outlet cover but discerning customers don't want short transients caused by poorly connected oversized power plugs interfering with true audio enjoyment of your favorite jazz records recorded on a 75 dollar mixing console in a basement in 1962.

qirex fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Jun 1, 2020

# ? Jun 1, 2020 17:40

Combat Pretzel: Jun 23, 2004; No, seriously... what kurds?!

Uh... what? :psypop:

Do they expect the plug flying out of the socket when you turn the amp up to 11?

# ? Jun 1, 2020 19:02

GnarlyCharlie4u: Sep 23, 2007; I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof

Combat Pretzel posted:

Uh... what?

Do they expect the plug flying out of the socket when you turn the amp up to 11?

Even better. They bought an $8000 power cable that is filled with sisal rope and lead and can't stay plugged in because it's so loving heavy.

# ? Jun 1, 2020 19:10

Fantastic Foreskin: Jan 6, 2013; A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.

GnarlyCharlie4u posted:

Even better. They bought an $8000 power cable that is filled with sisal rope and lead and can't stay plugged in because it's so loving heavy.

Its actually not the stupidest thing I've heard of, because I can imagine this is a real issue with some of those audiophile power cords. Still a rip-off at any of the prices they're charging, but when your cord is 5 figures its cheap enough to look like a no-brainer.

# ? Jun 1, 2020 19:50

GnarlyCharlie4u: Sep 23, 2007; I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof

Some Goon posted:

Its actually not the stupidest thing I've heard of, because I can imagine this is a real issue with some of those audiophile power cords. Still a rip-off at any of the prices they're charging, but when your cord is 5 figures its cheap enough to look like a no-brainer.

I mean I have twist lock outlets in places to prevent cables from being erroneously unplugged but that's for power delivery systems and servers and poo poo.
At just twice the price and not requiring a special cable, this seems like a pretty good bet to prevent my 2 year old from unplugging my desktop...

But I'm guessing that someone who spent $100000 on an amp likely doesn't have that problem.

# ? Jun 1, 2020 21:06

AlexDeGruven: Jun 29, 2007; Watch me pull my dongle out of this tiny box

This thread makes me wish I had tried to snag one of the 480v 3phase cables that powered our p795 when we decommissioned it. Rated for 110amps at 480. Probably about 10lb/foot.

# ? Jun 2, 2020 00:54

Olympic Mathlete: Feb 25, 2011

Audiophiles have clearly never heard of Neutrik PowerCon connectors. Install the chassis connector versions in your wall and save yourself hundreds of dollars.

# ? Jun 3, 2020 11:14

namlosh: Feb 11, 2014; I name this haircut "The Sad Rhino".

Lol, if you�re not soldering your power cord directly to your house mains

# ? Jun 3, 2020 15:02

Fantastic Foreskin: Jan 6, 2013; A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.

Closed circuit audiophile renewable energy. Solar power to make the brightness more natural. Wind for more airiness and enhanced woodwinds. A generator attached to a bike for better pace and timing (rider dependent). No worries about dirty power and you can shut down all the 'what about all the wire on the power lines / in your house' arguments.

# ? Jun 3, 2020 15:47

TheMadMilkman: Dec 10, 2007

Some Goon posted:

Closed circuit audiophile renewable energy. Solar power to make the brightness more natural. Wind for more airiness and enhanced woodwinds. A generator attached to a bike for better pace and timing (rider dependent). No worries about dirty power and you can shut down all the 'what about all the wire on the power lines / in your house' arguments.

I know one guy that operated his entire system off of a bank of car batteries.

I mean, he lived in Haiti, and their power grid was so flaky that he had to use batteries to guarantee power delivery. He was a very early adopter of switching amps, since it let him listen for longer.

# ? Jun 3, 2020 16:31

qirex: Feb 15, 2001

There's a whole universe of audiophile power garbage up to mains boxes in the low 6 figures for people who don't know what a switching power supply does. I've heard of people using batteries in the US too just because of weird ideas about AC power.

# ? Jun 3, 2020 17:32

Malcolm XML: Aug 8, 2009; I always knew it would end like ｔｈｉｓ．

namlosh posted:

Lol, if you�re not soldering your power cord directly to your house mains

Lmao if you're not like that Japanese guy who got his power company to install a fully separate drop from the grid

# ? Jun 3, 2020 17:34

Dirt Road Junglist: Oct 8, 2010; We will be cruel
And through our cruelty
They will know who we are

Malcolm XML posted:

Lmao if you're not like that Japanese guy who got his power company to install a fully separate drop from the grid

Ugh, wish I was rich enough for something like that. Trying to run a recording studio in my apartment loving sucks.

# ? Jun 3, 2020 18:05

ssb: Feb 16, 2006; WOULD YOU ACCOMPANY ME ON A BRISK WALK? I WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK WITH YOU!!

Dirt Road Junglist posted:

Ugh, wish I was rich enough for something like that. Trying to run a recording studio in my apartment loving sucks.

A couple power conditioners and a UPS solved any problems I had with recording, although I'll grant I do it as a hobby and not on any sort of large scale - what issues are you running into that need more than that?

# ? Jun 3, 2020 18:07

Dirt Road Junglist: Oct 8, 2010; We will be cruel
And through our cruelty
They will know who we are

shortspecialbus posted:

A couple power conditioners and a UPS solved any problems I had with recording, although I'll grant I do it as a hobby and not on any sort of large scale - what issues are you running into that need more than that?

I've got Furmans, but no UPS. My studio space's outlets share the same circuit as things like bathroom fans, which like to send spikes that jam up my soundcard. It's not horrible now that I've got beefier Furmans, as long as I don't crank the volume too much. I'm a little worried about something getting damaged, because I have some older rack gear, but it is what it is. I can't afford to move, and the studio is in the only part of the apartment where it fits. I can't afford an external space. On the upside, the label I'm on encourages the punk/DIY aesthetic.

:tif: