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Arglebargle III posted:Tell me how the Romans would have analyzed this if it happened to a Consul: Tarpeian rock, or strangled and thrown down the Gemonian stairs.
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Jun 1, 2020 20:41
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Arglebargle III posted:Tell me how the Romans would have analyzed this if it happened to a Consul: He can forget about a proconsular command that’s for sure
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Jun 1, 2020 20:42
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surely they'd just keep putting more and more eagles in front of him until they produced favorable omens or was that just the greek response
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Jun 1, 2020 20:44
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    Roman mosaic, Uzes France
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Jun 1, 2020 20:47
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Angry Lobster posted:Question for historians: A friend of mine has spent a couple years in a North African country doing independent research as part of his doctorate studies. The government aproached him and asked for permission to publish a small part of his work, for tourism guides, websites, small magazines and such, nothing too serious. The thing is that when they did the translation certain parts were changed without his knowledge to give the text a nationalistic slant and he just found out and he's pissed. Probably gonna let it slide, but what can be done in this kind of situations? If he ever wants to return to said country and not get jerked around in immigration / worked over by the govt. there, probably nothing.
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Jun 1, 2020 21:51
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How many auguries do you think were made up after the fact? The chicken story could easily be a later addition to make it clear Pulcher was at fault for the defeat.
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Jun 1, 2020 22:02
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 Angry Lobster posted:Question for historians: A friend of mine has spent a couple years in a North African country doing independent research as part of his doctorate studies. The government aproached him and asked for permission to publish a small part of his work, for tourism guides, websites, small magazines and such, nothing too serious. The thing is that when they did the translation certain parts were changed without his knowledge to give the text a nationalistic slant and he just found out and he's pissed. Probably gonna let it slide, but what can be done in this kind of situations? Nothing, really. It's normal for different translations to do this. There is some absolutely wild poo poo that shows up in East Asian museums in the local languages that isn't in the other captions. Someone's going to ask for examples and I don't remember anything in detail. I took some students to a Pompeii exhibition in China and they were telling me what the Chinese said and I remember some of it being absolutely insane nonsense, but I didn't take notes to remember the details.
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Jun 1, 2020 22:18
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Speaking of ancient ducks, I just dug through the last sixty pages of this thread looking for an image of an illumination(?) bearing the image of a duck with an axe head for a tail. Anybody remember who posted that? I need that duck.
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Jun 1, 2020 22:57
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CleverHans posted:If he ever wants to return to said country and not get jerked around in immigration / worked over by the govt. there, probably nothing. Grand Fromage posted:Nothing, really. It's normal for different translations to do this. There is some absolutely wild poo poo that shows up in East Asian museums in the local languages that isn't in the other captions. I thought so, still sucks but that's the way it is, thanks.
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Jun 1, 2020 23:14
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tokenbrownguy posted:Speaking of ancient ducks, I just dug through the last sixty pages of this thread looking for an image of an illumination(?) bearing the image of a duck with an axe head for a tail. Anybody remember who posted that? i think that was in the milhist thread? you aren't crazy though, i remember it too
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Jun 1, 2020 23:18
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Ahhhh yes, thank you.
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Jun 1, 2020 23:58
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Thucydides just got to Demosthenes and it seems like he's the only Athenian general who realized that naval superiority means that they can land anywhere on the coast of Lakonia at any time. At least according to Thucydides his fellow generals thought this was a really bad idea and the Spartans would kick their asses. But like three weeks after they give Demosthenes a command they have Sparta at the negotiating table because thousands of Spartans have responded to a coastal raid and been cut off from retreat by the Athenian fleet. edit: it was only 400 hoplites what a bunch of idiot babies Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Jun 2, 2020 |
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Jun 2, 2020 00:57
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Arglebargle III posted:How many auguries do you think were made up after the fact? The chicken story could easily be a later addition to make it clear Pulcher was at fault for the defeat. One of the things that interested me most about Xenophon's Anabasis is how many failed auguries there are at different points. Like, at first, that whole invasion of Persia seemed like a great idea!
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Jun 2, 2020 01:08
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Also from Thucydides it was very funny that Athens made the Spartans hand over their warships as hostage for their heavy infantry and when the Spartans asked for the ships back at the conclusion of negotiations the Athenian response was "neener neener." edit: I didn't realize that the Battle of Pylos was in Assassin's Creed: Odyssey where the player ahistorically breaks the blockade of Sphakteria and rescues the Spartan army. In real life the Spartan army was captured and taken to Athens as prisoners. I do not know how the Athenians managed to lose this war. This was already five years after the Great Plague. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Jun 2, 2020 |
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Jun 2, 2020 01:25
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As the Chinese and Romans also discovered, the Persians worked out that it's so much cheaper and easier to pay the fractitious barbarians at the edge of your empire to fight one another.
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Jun 2, 2020 02:00
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Arglebargle III posted:edit: I didn't realize that the Battle of Pylos was in Assassin's Creed: Odyssey where the player ahistorically breaks the blockade of Sphakteria and rescues the Spartan army. Wait what they do? My outcome was uh on the more historical side of things. I didn't realize I could have won that, huh.
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Jun 2, 2020 02:02
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Oh I guess maybe they still lose in Assassin's Creed idk.
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Jun 2, 2020 02:14
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https://twitter.com/mikeduncan/status/1267548197347606530 Patrick Wyman article: How Do You Know if You're Living Through the Death of an Empire? Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Jun 2, 2020 |
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Jun 2, 2020 07:31
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tokenbrownguy posted:Ahhhh yes, thank you. Did anyone ever actually craft an axe-blade-at-the-end-of-a-chain weapon? I'm not a weapon-whacker but that seems like a plausible way to hurt people. Kusarigama isn't what I'm thinking of.
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Jun 2, 2020 08:20
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Arglebargle III posted:Also from Thucydides it was very funny that Athens made the Spartans hand over their warships as hostage for their heavy infantry and when the Spartans asked for the ships back at the conclusion of negotiations the Athenian response was "neener neener." My memory is vague but didn't they send not one but two massive fleets to a far away colony or city because they were so high on their own farts they wanted to make everyone pay tribute to Athens? And I think they also then executed a bunch of extremely competent generals who just had bad luck like a sea storm or who retreated against impossible odds to preserve the army/navy strength?
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Jun 2, 2020 08:28
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dude, spoilers!
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Jun 2, 2020 08:33
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tokenbrownguy posted:Ahhhh yes, thank you. Where is this from? It's perfect avatar material.
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Jun 2, 2020 10:07
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Fuschia tude posted:Did anyone ever actually craft an axe-blade-at-the-end-of-a-chain weapon? I'm not a weapon-whacker but that seems like a plausible way to hurt people. It really doesn't work. With an edged weapon you need strike edge-first, and at the end of a chain there's no way to control which way the edge is facing. The only viable thing to put at the end of a chain is a weight, either simple or with spikes all around it. Apparently there's a lack of evidence for spiked flails even existing historically, they may just be a fabrication from later periods (Victorians  )
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Jun 2, 2020 11:20
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Kylaer posted:It really doesn't work. With an edged weapon you need strike edge-first, and at the end of a chain there's no way to control which way the edge is facing. The only viable thing to put at the end of a chain is a weight, either simple or with spikes all around it. Apparently there's a lack of evidence for spiked flails even existing historically, they may just be a fabrication from later periods (Victorians
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Jun 2, 2020 11:31
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HEY GUNS posted:The word "morning star" / "morgenstern" shows up in 17th century texts, like Monro's autobiography. But what it refers to is probably a pike with explosives on the end. An example of one is preserved in the Stralsund mass grave. I haven't seen a ball of spikes on a chain. Thinking about it, were there weapons like the kusarigama outside of Japan?
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Jun 2, 2020 11:36
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There were tons of variations on the concept of the mace, with round heads, or flanged, or spiked, but yeah, the "mace on a chain" is probably fantasy. Threshing flails were a real peasant tool and undoubtedly got used to bash heads in once in a while, much like you can chop someone with an axe meant for cutting trees, but that's different than a dedicated weapon design. Was the kusarigama something that actually saw use, or is it another likely fantasy creation? The way I've heard it described is that the weight and chain were light and the chain was much longer than what is ascribed to a flail, and the intention was to entangle an opponent's arm or weapon so you could stab them, rather than to be a killing tool in it's own right. But I have no idea if they were real.
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Jun 2, 2020 12:30
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Arglebargle III posted:edit: it was only 400 hoplites what a bunch of idiot babies 'Only'. This isnt the Roman Empire, that's actually a fairly large percentage of all Spartan citizens.
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Jun 2, 2020 12:43
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pentyne posted:My memory is vague but didn't they send not one but two massive fleets to a far away colony or city because they were so high on their own farts they wanted to make everyone pay tribute to Athens? Im guessing you are remembering the Sicilian expedition? Yeah that was not the time to do it when heavily enrolled in the current war with Sparta and friends. The second one might be the Battle of Arginusae, where the Athenian Fleet scored a victory against Sparta but failed an attempted rescue operation due to a storm. So the generals were tried and six out of eight were executed.
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Jun 2, 2020 13:06
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Hey history thread, I'm in the early stages of planning a high school class on Roman history. Anyone got any good recommendations for books that sorta go through a good overview of.... The whole thing? Not looking for a textbook, looking for something to read through myself and probably use as a basis for the syllabus. Otherwise the class is going to be 10 classes in a row of stuff I find cool then 5 minute lessons on the stuff I don't care about.
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Jun 2, 2020 14:06
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The guy who did that neat breakdown of why Sparta was a lovely, lovely polis is doing a neat breakdown of the Battle for Helm's Deep from an ancient-war-and-society perspective: https://acoup.blog/2020/05/01/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-i-bargaining-for-goods-at-helms-gate/
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Jun 2, 2020 14:09
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The guy who did that neat breakdown of why Sparta was a lovely, lovely polis is doing a neat breakdown of the Battle for Helm's Deep from an ancient-war-and-society perspective: https://acoup.blog/2020/05/01/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-i-bargaining-for-goods-at-helms-gate/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/66pjm1/were_the_cultures_of_5th_century_bc_athens_and/dgkbrbl/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4kqvwk/were_the_spartans_really_all_that_great_as/d3hjic9/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/wiki/profiles/iphikrates#wiki_sparta Both acoup.blog and iphikrates are recent PhDs, but acoup.blog is a Roman/Carthiginian specialist.
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Jun 2, 2020 14:28
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BrainDance posted:Hey history thread, I'm in the early stages of planning a high school class on Roman history. Anyone got any good recommendations for books that sorta go through a good overview of.... The whole thing? Check out Mary Beard's "SPQR: A History of Ancient Rome". It's intended to be fairly "People's History"-ish. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28789711-spqr
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Jun 2, 2020 14:31
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Kaal posted:Check out Mary Beard's "SPQR: A History of Ancient Rome". It's intended to be fairly "People's History"-ish. this is quite good but it's both a book about roman history and about history itself - i.e. how we know what we know and what we know vs. what we don't (which i found very interesting, but someone just interested in rome itself may not) worth reading, but you will be surprised if you just expect a chronological narrative of roman history
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Jun 2, 2020 14:33
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Kaal posted:Check out Mary Beard's "SPQR: A History of Ancient Rome". It's intended to be fairly "People's History"-ish. Thanks! This looks like it will do the job and this evilweasel posted:this is quite good but it's both a book about roman history and about history itself - i.e. how we know what we know and what we know vs. what we don't (which i found very interesting, but someone just interested in rome itself may not) might actually be a plus. The class needs to be structured in a way that gets them talking about history, and "how do we know what we know" has been my approach so far.
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Jun 2, 2020 15:05
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pentyne posted:And I think they also then executed a bunch of extremely competent generals who just had bad luck like a sea storm or who retreated against impossible odds to preserve the army/navy strength? Athens exiling/executing anyone competent that shows up is sort of their gimmick. BrainDance posted:Hey history thread, I'm in the early stages of planning a high school class on Roman history. Anyone got any good recommendations for books that sorta go through a good overview of.... The whole thing? SPQR is good. The Storm Before the Storm by Mike Duncan and Rubicon by Tom Holland for the late Republic. Pax Romana by Adrian Goldsworthy for the principate. The Fate of Rome by Kyle Harper for late antiquity. There aren't good overview books for the ERE in English, Lost to the West by Lars Brownworth is okay. Norwich's trilogy is the only other one I know of but is old scholarship that is widely questioned today. Streams of Gold, Rivers of Blood by Anthony Kaldellis is good for the Macedonian dynasty era. Having also taught Roman history in a Chinese high school, keep in mind your students have no background at all and know absolutely nothing unless they're nerds. You'll have to plan for all sorts of stuff that you wouldn't think you'd need to, like explaining from first principles of what Christianity is or who the Greeks were. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Jun 2, 2020 |
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Jun 2, 2020 16:34
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HEY GUNS posted:But that guy may have been wrong. Both the modern people who idolize Sparta and the modern people who denigrate it seem to be talking more about Sparta as a symbol for modern politics. Acoup.blog goes into more detail on this point when they discuss "the Fremen mirage". https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-part-i-war-at-the-dawn-of-civilization/ quote:A few of you have noted in the comments how the Fremen Mirage actually shares quite a few elements with the twin Myths of Sparta. Both have their roots in ancient literary tropes which never, in the event, described ancient history very well. Both speak to a concern about the decline in a certain form of masculinity and consequent decline in fighting capabilities (which honestly gets a bit funny when you think of how unmasculine your average Spartiate – effectively unemployed, concerned about his appearance, especially his long hair, and mostly preferring the company of other men to women – would seem by some modern standards; what counts as ‘masculine’ it turns out, changes a lot with the times). Both associate a certain kind of poverty or asceticism with both military prowess and moral virtue (despite the Spartan’s apparent lack of both). They both equate a sort of unsophistication, or even willful ignorance, with a kind of ‘hard’ virtue that produces good soldiers. And, finally, both value those things to the absolute exclusion of any other kind of achievement, praising ruthlessness and detachment from traditional morality in pursuit of this kind of supposed virtue (it is no accident, as a side note, that the Spartan Mirage and the Fremen Mirage both have their renaissance in Europe during the period of Romanticism).
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Jun 2, 2020 17:07
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Grand Fromage posted:There aren't good overview books for the ERE in English, Lost to the West by Lars Brownworth is okay. Norwich's trilogy is the only other one I know of but is old scholarship that is widely questioned today. Streams of Gold, Rivers of Blood by Anthony Kaldellis is good for the Macedonian dynasty era. How is The Oxford History of Byzantium?
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Jun 2, 2020 17:27
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Grand Fromage posted:Athens exiling/executing anyone competent that shows up is sort of their gimmick. I wouldn’t recommend Fate of Rome as an overview of late antiquity for students tbh. It’s interesting and covers a lot of material that other books don’t, but it devotes a lot of space to fairly technical interdisciplinary stuff that isn’t likely to engage people who don’t already know the basic history. It’s hard to recommend just one book to cover late antiquity though. Most of my favorites are just as specialized in their authors’ areas of interest.
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Jun 2, 2020 18:28
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military cervix posted:Where is this from? It's perfect avatar material. PYF poster Dabir posted it first for the memes. Apparently from a 15th century military manual? I'd be interested to know the name of the text and if there's a translation. Thinking about getting a halbird tattoo...
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Jun 2, 2020 19:16
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