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Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

Drunkboxer posted:

It's probably best not to look to juvenile cult movies from the 80's for political guidance or inspiration. Though I guess I do like how on the nose the military industrial complex conjoined twin guys were in Troma's War.

Oh, no, don't take that as 'they're great because of this.'

Well they are but that's neither here nor there. Troma goes for shock value and against the morality of what is conservative. They do this to extremes, which includes having a sexy heroic suicide bomber be the hero of a movie. You can't possibly consider it right or an example to follow, because it purely follows its own twisted beat. If ever they align with good taste, it is purely by chance and fleeting at best.

If you can get into trash cinema, it's some of the least gross behind the scenes. But the content on the surface is intentionally going against the grain regardless of context or meaning.

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Pope Corky the IX
Dec 18, 2006


🎵 I'm blue
Yeah I'm a blue Shrek, guy
Step a foot in my swamp
And you're gonna die 🎵

WeaponX posted:

I have yet to see anybody on here really defend Troma.

You were saying?

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

Witchfinder General

Troma is punk.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

Pope Corky the IX posted:

You were saying?

Understanding is not defending

Pope Corky the IX
Dec 18, 2006


🎵 I'm blue
Yeah I'm a blue Shrek, guy
Step a foot in my swamp
And you're gonna die 🎵
Okay, so I should try and understand how horrifically transphobic the ending of Terror Firmer is? Is this an example of punching up?

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

Pope Corky the IX posted:

Okay, so I should try and understand how horrifically transphobic the ending of Terror Firmer is? Is this an example of punching up?

Do you want me to actually answer this or are you going to continue being hyperbolic and miss the point

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer

Pope Corky the IX posted:

Okay, so I should try and understand how horrifically transphobic the ending of Terror Firmer is? Is this an example of punching up?

The movie is literally an exercise in bad taste, offensiveness, low-brow art and countercultural satire. It's the antithesis of being thoughtful and PC, but it's also not sincere or hateful in any of its representations of transgender community, rape, the blind, mental illness, abortions, or the million other things it makes jokes about. If you don't want to be offended, or watch offensive humor, then you should probably never watch a Troma movie ever.

edit: To clarify, that's not a defense of Kaufman putting workers in dangerous conditions, or how little they pay their workers, or arguing that Troma films are quality entertainment. They are schlocky, trashy films with a few things to appreciate (the indie DIY punk attitude, a few films here and there, some of the actors and writers and directors that came from their films). They are definitely of a time and place in film history like Corman's stuff.

Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Jun 4, 2020

Kvlt!
May 19, 2012



That's like saying you don't like early John Waters movies bc theyre offensive. Its the entire loving point

edit: this is directed at Pope Corky not fran lol

Pope Corky the IX
Dec 18, 2006


🎵 I'm blue
Yeah I'm a blue Shrek, guy
Step a foot in my swamp
And you're gonna die 🎵

Franchescanado posted:

The movie is literally an exercise in bad taste, offensiveness, low-brow art and countercultural satire. It's the antithesis of being thoughtful and PC, but it's also not sincere or hateful in any of its representations of transgender community, rape, the blind, mental illness, abortions, or the million other things it makes jokes about. If you don't want to be offended, or watch offensive humor, then you should probably never watch a Troma movie ever.

edit: To clarify, that's not a defense of Kaufman putting workers in dangerous conditions, or how little they pay their workers, or arguing that Troma films are quality entertainment. They are schlocky, trashy films with a few things to appreciate (the indie DIY punk attitude, a few films here and there, some of the actors and writers and directors that came from their films). They are definitely of a time and place in film history like Corman's stuff.

I appreciate this reply and agree with most of it. I just have an issue with their “jokes” about rape and trans people for the most part.

And I actually did want a discussion, which is what I said to begin with.

Again, I was a big fan of Troma in my mid to late teens, and now I’m thoroughly embarrassed.

TheOmegaWalrus
Feb 3, 2007

by Hand Knit
I remember the days when works of fiction used to make me angry.

It's probably a lot to do with how art is taught to children in this country. Put in a little effort, make it look nice, showers of compliments and positivity all around. Everyone likes a pretty picture right?

But art can be anything under the sun. The assumed criteria of "kindness" becomes less relevant as a person ages, art is simply something manmade that's survived through time.

Folks find that jarring, and limit themselves to smiling faces and green fields.

Maybe it takes a hosed-up childhood to actively seek escapism in gore and nudity, but it works for me!

Kvlt!
May 19, 2012



Not even joking I agree with pretty much everything you just said.

flashy_mcflash
Feb 7, 2011

TheOmegaWalrus posted:

I remember the days when works of fiction used to make me angry.

It's probably a lot to do with how art is taught to children in this country. Put in a little effort, make it look nice, showers of compliments and positivity all around. Everyone likes a pretty picture right?

But art can be anything under the sun. The assumed criteria of "kindness" becomes less relevant as a person ages, art is simply something manmade that's survived through time.

Folks find that jarring, and limit themselves to smiling faces and green fields.

Maybe it takes a hosed-up childhood to actively seek escapism in gore and nudity, but it works for me!
None of this is wrong, and it's well put but I'm pretty sure this would apply to almost anyone reading this, the horror movie thread.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer

Pope Corky the IX posted:

I appreciate this reply and agree with most of it. I just have an issue with their “jokes” about rape and trans people for the most part.

And I actually did want a discussion, which is what I said to begin with.

Again, I was a big fan of Troma in my mid to late teens, and now I’m thoroughly embarrassed.

With Terror Firmer, and similar films like Street Trash, it's all very subjective for the audience. Both are purposefully offensive to as many subjects as possible. Neither of them are intended to hurt or seriously damage those persons. There is no defense of it being high art. Sometimes the exercise is to see how offensive you can be while still being fun.

Terror Firmer's a weird film, because the entire film is based around a transgender person (who was, for clarity, forced into being transgender by their father, Ron Jeremy, so they could be raped as a daughter). It's incredibly hosed up, yes, but it's also not serious about it at all. It's not made for broad audiences, the offensive humor isn't intended with a message. In fact, it's making fun of slasher films like Dressed To Kill and Sleepaway Camp.

The only thing Terror Firmer is sincere about, and where it (for me) wraps back around to being one of Troma's good movies, is how so much of it is the epitome of Troma's entire existence and ethos. That offensive, crass, vulgar films are still a valid form of art and creative representation. Notice, the film's through-line it repeats is a tongue-in-cheek "Let's make some art!" That's not saying it's good or bad. It also has a major theme about the death of indie filmmaking and how it's been destroyed by the Hollywood system. So while it's pushing the boundaries of what is bad taste, it can't really predict or worry about what's going to be acceptable, or whose feeling's they're going to hurt. If they upset someone, that speaks to the film. If someone gets it and laughs, that speaks to the film. Morality, in a writing sense, goes out the window. It's also interested in exploring metatextuality, with all of the Troma in-jokes, plus it being a reference to the Troma book Make Your Own drat Movie! and All I Need to Know about Filmmaking I Learned from the Toxic Avenger.

It's a low-budget exploitation film from '99. Times have certainly changed. Good! Your looking back on it and being embarrassed shows you've grown as a person and the world around you has changed, and you've moved past the edgelord humor of a man getting killed by booze being funneled into his rear end while he yells "My Hershey highway is a one way street!". There's nothing wrong with having grown past old interests. I wouldn't recommend Terror Firmer to anyone, unless I know they're already into it, but I do appreciate it for what it is, the ugly lil bastard of a film. I certainly don't take any of it seriously, and I don't think anyone should take it seriously. Compared to recent exploitation film Red Christmas, which seems to sincere in it's vitriolic hate that I detest it. Or even Feast, which I never care to revisit, cuz it's edge-lord pleasures have aged like milk to me. Still, I can't help but appreciate Troma's contribution to films, warts and all.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer
I could do a write-up on why I think John Waters has an edge on Troma films, in that he is even more thoughtful and sincere with his exploration of bad taste and offensive art, and how he uses the magic of film to really gently caress with audiences, that there's power in offending someone over some images and corny jokes. Mostly it's because, in even his early films, he's using his voice to actually say things about culture, society, people, celebrity, and film, that Troma mostly does not care about. So even though Pink Flamingos shows actual chickens being killed (not cool) and literal dancing assholes, there's more working under the surface than the average Troma film, which will make them stand the test of time in ways Troma films won't. So, if anyone else wants to share thoughts on that, that'd be cool. But I'm still at work and have poo poo to do, so I can't sit around defending John Waters's rape jokes in Female Trouble compared to Lloyd Kaufman's in Terror Firmer.

Splint Chesthair
Dec 27, 2004


I think a big part of the problem as well is that Troma being obnoxious was meant to stick it to conservatism at the time. Whereas today, conservatism has itself become primarily obnoxious.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy
John Waters is untouchable in the annuals of trash cinema and an inspiration for Troma themselves. He also puts a lot more sincerity, as you said Fran, which makes his movies feel better as well.

And yeah, the moment the dominate conservative culture went full obnoxious bullshit was the moment Troma lost some ground. They work best paired against the stuffy, neutered 90s bullshit, not this current hellscape.

Sarchasm
Apr 14, 2002

So that explains why he did not answer. He had no mouth to answer with. There is nothing left of him but his ears.

I know a few folks in the thread have been waiting for this.

https://twitter.com/Shudder/status/1268555404541386754?s=19

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer

Sarchasm posted:

I know a few folks in the thread have been waiting for this.

https://twitter.com/Shudder/status/1268555404541386754?s=19

It’s great. I highly recommend it. My review with some spoilers.

Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Jun 4, 2020

WeaponX
Jul 28, 2008



Pope Corky the IX posted:

You were saying?

People explaining how they feel about Troma both good and bad =/= defending Troma.

the_enduser
May 1, 2006

They say the user lives outside the net.



I want more Videodrome horror(horny).

Count Thrashula
Jun 1, 2003

Peak Performance.

Buglord
Horny body horror is my favorite subgenre

TheOmegaWalrus
Feb 3, 2007

by Hand Knit
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!

King Vidiot
Feb 17, 2007

You think you can take me at Satan's Hollow? Go 'head on!
Troma's brand of absurd, transgressive and gross humor can work nowadays, I mean look at comedians like Eric Andre, Tim Heidecker and Eric Wareheim, Boots Riley, etc. The problem with Troma is that they never really cared to make a coherent statement, so it's just absurdity and crassness.

I still respect Lloyd Kaufman and, while I haven't seen it in decades, I'd probably still enjoy Tromeo and Juliet if I watched it today. But that's probably 90% the James Gunn script. The other 10% is the lead actor's performances.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer

COOL CORN posted:

Horny body horror is my favorite subgenre

Everyone should watch more Ken Russell

married but discreet
May 7, 2005


Taco Defender
Recommend more Ken Russell, I've seen Gothic and Lair of the White Worm.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer

married but discreet posted:

Recommend more Ken Russell, I've seen Gothic and Lair of the White Worm.

The Devils is still my favorite, but Listzomania is nuts. Altered States as well.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

King Vidiot posted:

Troma's brand of absurd, transgressive and gross humor can work nowadays, I mean look at comedians like Eric Andre, Tim Heidecker and Eric Wareheim, Boots Riley, etc. The problem with Troma is that they never really cared to make a coherent statement, so it's just absurdity and crassness.

I still respect Lloyd Kaufman and, while I haven't seen it in decades, I'd probably still enjoy Tromeo and Juliet if I watched it today. But that's probably 90% the James Gunn script. The other 10% is the lead actor's performances.

Class of Nukem High manages to be insanely good somehow for what it is and it being a Troma flick imo.

M_Sinistrari
Sep 5, 2008

Do you like scary movies?




As my job situation is back in the 'no one has a clue on reopening' stage, I'll be there.

Franchescanado posted:

The Devils is still my favorite, but Listzomania is nuts.


If anyone's going to know, it's you. Did they ever manage an as close as it's going to get to the original version with The Devils? I've seen so many different cuts, I'm just not sure anymore.

Null of Undefined
Aug 4, 2010

I have used 41 of 300 characters allowed.

married but discreet posted:

Former CineD poster HBomberguy made a pretty good video essay about that movie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8u8wZ0WvxI

This is a very pro click

Scissorfighter
Oct 7, 2007

With all rocks and papers vanquished, they turn on eachother...

I'm a semi-poser reading through this thread from the beginning to watch things discussed that sound interesting. I'm only halfway through mid-2019 but I wanted to give a progress report before I forget:

Leeches: Was craving a monster movie and this didn't really scratch that itch. About 60% of it is dry scenes of dialog between someone speaking English and someone speaking Spanish dubbed to English. Occasionally there's gold, like the business meeting scene. I'm docking a lot of points for the ending setting up a bunch of jerk kids around a campfire and having them not get attacked. Instead, 2 different men attempt to rape the same girl in succession and the girl is the one to get killed, in a horrifying way. That's way too mean for a movie this dumb.

Demons: This movie has a great opening act. Goofy themesong, creepy ticketman in the subway, cool subversion of the "ancient demonic relic" trope by making it a modern horror film that kicks things off. Once the carnage starts, it gets really choppy and hard to follow, with characters teleporting all over the place, and there's a lady who seems to work at the haunted theater and might know something, but the most she does is chastise people for smoking and appear in the background of random scenes. Tony the Pimp was a throughline, but he died way too soon. All is forgiven though once George gets a samurai sword and a motorcycle and seemingly becomes the coolest motherfucker on earth. The climax really, really follows through and gave me exactly what I wanted out of such a silly movie.

Night of the Demons: I think I watched this because someone called it an Evil Dead clone. That's accurate. This thing has way more buildup than it needs and no one dies until the 3rd act. After that it runs on fast forward and has some good moments if you can forgive it being excessively sleazy. Props to Reg for not only figuring out he's in a horror movie really early on, but really bucking the odds and surviving. The bookends with the razor/apple guy were probably the best part.

Phantasm: This is probably the most famous horror movie I hadn't seen. It owns. All the shots are lit in dynamic and interesting ways, there's enough creative ideas for 3 films jammed in, the visuals hold up and the soundtrack gave it a unique mood. The ending really sucked though. Edit: Also is there a fan theory about why the tall man turns into a woman, finds a victim then lets them fully finish inside him, and then he kills them?

Scissorfighter fucked around with this message at 11:04 on Jun 5, 2020

Iron Crowned
May 6, 2003

by Hand Knit
Come to Daddy owns. It's one of those great movies where nothing turns out like you would expect.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment

Grimey Drawer

M_Sinistrari posted:

If anyone's going to know, it's you. Did they ever manage an as close as it's going to get to the original version with The Devils? I've seen so many different cuts, I'm just not sure anymore.

The best cut available with the best image transfer was available on Shudder a year ago (does it actually stream?) or so and then Criterion Channel more recently. If it's going to appear somewhere again, it's going to be on those two or possibly HBO Max.

I check on it every so often, and a physical release of is basically out of the question. As Egbert Souse explained to me, there is regularly an attempt at getting it released on 4k or blu ray by a boutique label like Criterion or something, and Warner Bros just absolutely won't do it.


Iron Crowned posted:

Come to Daddy owns. It's one of those great movies where nothing turns out like you would expect.

Hell yes it is!

OpenSourceBurger
Sep 25, 2019
Mad Rons Prevues From Hell is on Netflix and I'm so glad I stumbled on it. It's just a bunch of grindhouse trailers strung together with this balding dude and the most hilariously poo poo zombie ventriloquist dummy. It's super obvious it was made by some crappy little movie theater owner and his buds back in the 80s and it's so loving great.

Just constantly foul mouth awful puns and the cheesiest synth score, so awesome.

feedmyleg
Dec 25, 2004
I first watched that on an unmarked VHS tape I bought off of eBay that I put on with absolutely no context. Would highly recommend that as your first encounter with it.

Count Thrashula
Jun 1, 2003

Peak Performance.

Buglord
Knife+Heart is really good everybody should watch it during this holy month of Pride

gey muckle mowser
Aug 5, 2003

Do you know anything about...
witches?



Buglord

COOL CORN posted:

Knife+Heart is really good everybody should watch it during this holy month of Pride

:yeah: it was one of my favorite movies of last year, Pride month seems like a good excuse to give it another watch

Debbie Does Dagon
Jul 8, 2005



If you want more pride month related films, The Wild Boys is still on Shudder. It lacks a little in the spookies department, but it's so rich, and vibrant, and beautiful. It's about a group of young men, all played by women, who rape and murder their teacher. They're then taken aboard a ship as punishment, where a bear of a captain attempts to whip them into law abiding citizens. The real star is the cinematography, which is just a grandiose celebration of fantasy adventure cinema from 1900 to 1960. It's just wonderful.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

OpenSourceBurger posted:

Mad Rons Prevues From Hell is on Netflix and I'm so glad I stumbled on it. It's just a bunch of grindhouse trailers strung together with this balding dude and the most hilariously poo poo zombie ventriloquist dummy. It's super obvious it was made by some crappy little movie theater owner and his buds back in the 80s and it's so loving great.

Just constantly foul mouth awful puns and the cheesiest synth score, so awesome.

I can't remember whenever we first watched that but about halfway through we started fastforwarding past the Ron/zombie ventriloquist parts just to see the trailers lol

Iron Crowned
May 6, 2003

by Hand Knit
Ron... Zombie? :thunk:

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Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

Scissorfighter posted:

Demons: This movie has a great opening act. Goofy themesong, creepy ticketman in the subway, cool subversion of the "ancient demonic relic" trope by making it a modern horror film that kicks things off. Once the carnage starts, it gets really choppy and hard to follow, with characters teleporting all over the place, and there's a lady who seems to work at the haunted theater and might know something, but the most she does is chastise people for smoking and appear in the background of random scenes. Tony the Pimp was a throughline, but he died way too soon. All is forgiven though once George gets a samurai sword and a motorcycle and seemingly becomes the coolest motherfucker on earth. The climax really, really follows through and gave me exactly what I wanted out of such a silly movie.

Night of the Demons: I think I watched this because someone called it an Evil Dead clone. That's accurate. This thing has way more buildup than it needs and no one dies until the 3rd act. After that it runs on fast forward and has some good moments if you can forgive it being excessively sleazy. Props to Reg for not only figuring out he's in a horror movie really early on, but really bucking the odds and surviving. The bookends with the razor/apple guy were probably the best part.

Phantasm: This is probably the most famous horror movie I hadn't seen. It owns. All the shots are lit in dynamic and interesting ways, there's enough creative ideas for 3 films jammed in, the visuals hold up and the soundtrack gave it a unique mood. The ending really sucked though. Edit: Also is there a fan theory about why the tall man turns into a woman, finds a victim then lets them fully finish inside him, and then he kills them?

Interestingly, from your thoughts on these three movies I would strongly recommend Demons 2 and Night of the Demons 2, and Phantasm 2! Demons 2 is definitely more polished continuity and more creative with some of its effects, great soundtrack. I don't think anything in it matches the motorcycle/Fast As a Shark scene in Demons 1 but in general I prefer it to the first one. Towards the end of it there's a massive brawl/bludgeoning fight between everyone left alive in the parking garage and the demons that absolutely fuckin' rules. And also it's even more meta than the first one.

Night of the Demons 2 is like, well, it's basically Night of the Demons 1 but better and stuff starts happening sooner, fun stuff! I remember this one was a regular rental among my circle of friends in high school.

Phantasm 2 is less interesting than the first one and has more action/comedy but it just owns at weaving those things into a weird sort of psychic road trip.


Scissorfighter posted:

Edit: Also is there a fan theory about why the tall man turns into a woman, finds a victim then lets them fully finish inside him, and then he kills them?

The Tall Man fucks.



EDIT:

OH! And if you like Demons 2 have I got some absolutely great news for you about Demons 3. :getin:

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