|
I'm watching the threads titular episode rn
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2020 19:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 16, 2024 16:03 |
|
|
mind the walrus posted:Just pretend its skin flakes make Bajorans bust out into hives or something Pretending that makes me double-angry the spider isn't on DS9.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2020 20:57
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:Sisko was promoted to a strategic command position after DS9 fell yeah. He was second to Admiral Ross, who was portrayed as one of the top command guys for Starfleet during the war. i dunno, he fumbles it pretty badly a few times at the start. he even drops the role as quickly as possible. earlier captain sisko is pretty short-sighted. i dunno if s1 sisko would have figured out so easily that the dominion was going to attack when they started mining the wormhole one of the reasons i really like ds9 more than tng is how consistently and believably the characters develop. every character except maybe dax has considerable growth thats revisited a lot through the series, and in her case its fair because shes 300+ years old, her growth is like over a week once merged edit: that worf's growth is limited to him realizing what a failure he is and how much he sucks at everything is still growth Scope posted:Pretending that makes me double-angry the spider isn't on DS9. 
Verviticus fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Jun 8, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2020 22:17
|
|
|
There is that episode that's basically space trench warfare and Sisko insists on holding the line personally for the troops who haven't been relieved in months. The one with the guy with the necklace of Ketracel-white nozzles, where Nog gets his leg shot off.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 05:39
|
|
|
mind the walrus posted:You're not wrong, it's just that most of those things are done away with by the end of the first episode of DS9. Sisko's burnout is functionally gone. Jadzia and Bashir never really get to spend any time being too good/green for their surroundings. Kira never gets to voice her frustration at being punted into the corner by her bosses. It's just funny. I think that's a small part of why Garak and Quark work-- they're both actual cast offs who hosed up at their jobs elsewhere and truly have nowhere else to go. I like the early seasons best for this reason, because it really does feel more like the band of misfits. A lot of the fan content I enjoy (yes it exists!! buzz off!!) tends to highlight it and that's the most fun.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 05:50
|
|
|
From this, we can tragically infer that Kira ate Christina.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 05:51
|
|
|
Pick posted:I like the early seasons best for this reason, because it really does feel more like the band of misfits. A lot of the fan content I enjoy (yes it exists!! buzz off!!) tends to highlight it and that's the most fun.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 06:13
|
|
|
Laterite posted:There's a lot of DS9 episodes that get harder and grimmer to watch with each passing year. Nebakenezzer posted:Honestly curious for a list of that No list, but there's a two-parter from right in the middle of season 4 (Homefront/Paradise Lost) that aged terrifyingly well. As a result of the threat of changelings (shapeshifter enemies) possibly infiltrating Earth following multiple violent encounters with the Dominion, the government invokes draconian security measures (blood tests, scans etc.), with Sisko finding himself agreeing with - and demanding - these changes. After all, it's his station on the front line, and he's fought these people more than once. An attack on infrastructure (that turns out to be a false flag operation) results in temporary emergency powers for the military, dangerously escalating the situation and giving the changelings an opportunity to frame Sisko to their benefit. It sounds like I'm really laying all this on thick, but the show does too, really beating you over the head with with the foolishness of a people's and government's turn to paranoia and authoritarianism that happened after 9/11, with other characters, like Sisko's dad (who makes a great point about how easily the changelings could get around some of these measures), representing the damage this kind of reaction can do to an innocent populace, which is weird considering it aired in early 1996.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 08:29
|
|
|
do the changelings actually frame sisko? i thought it was just layton doing some magic that the show-writers didnt want to elaborate on because even sisko asks "how'd you do it" and layton replies "does it matter"
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 23:13
|
|
|
Coucho Marx posted:No list, but there's a two-parter from right in the middle of season 4 (Homefront/Paradise Lost) that aged terrifyingly well. As a result of the threat of changelings (shapeshifter enemies) possibly infiltrating Earth following multiple violent encounters with the Dominion, the government invokes draconian security measures (blood tests, scans etc.), with Sisko finding himself agreeing with - and demanding - these changes. After all, it's his station on the front line, and he's fought these people more than once. An attack on infrastructure (that turns out to be a false flag operation) results in temporary emergency powers for the military, dangerously escalating the situation and giving the changelings an opportunity to frame Sisko to their benefit. Homefront/Paradise Lost is a strong contender for my favorite DS9, up there with Pale Moonlight, Improbably Cause/The Die is Cast, and Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges. That last one in particular does a spectacular job of tying together the entire on-going "Can the Federation's ideals survive the challenge of the Dominion?" storyline, running the ball that Homefront set up and Inquisition carried by introducing Section 31. The way it uses everything from Bashir's on-going character arc, from his revelation as an augment to his informal mentoring by Garak, to its use of recurring morally grey but clearly not evil regulars like Senator Kreetak and Admiral Ross... ung, so god drat good.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 01:29
|
|
|
mind the walrus posted:It's especially funny that like Dax and Bashir and Kira are all these hot shots in their fields and Worf, Garak, and Odo are these unicorns... and Sisko is literally designated "The Special," but all the marketing likes to make it seem like DS9 is this place for cast-offs. It's a theme on the show on how most of the cast members are alienated from their native cultures. Odo, Garak, Quark, Rom, Nog, (Actually all of Quark's family) and Worf are all outcasts, sometimes by choice. As mentioned, Sisko has rather understandable emotional issues and is being given a command post as he seems all burnt out in his previous career tracks. Kira is a small, impossibly angry person at the start of the show, and you get the impression that the Bajorians sent her to the station because 1) She's unquestionably a steadfast guardian of Bajor's interests, 2) Is an experienced terrorist/rebel, and thus excellent if the poo poo goes down, and 3) holy poo poo she's annoying, get her out of here. I mean, I'm pretty sure most of these characters have been formally thrown out of their societies for one reason or another. Admittedly O'Brien is a champ, as is Dr. Bashier, but their motivation for coming for DS9 is that they like a challenge and want new experiences. (Huh, no wonder they fell into bromance.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 21:07
|
|
|
Verviticus posted:i dunno, he fumbles it pretty badly a few times at the start. he even drops the role as quickly as possible. earlier captain sisko is pretty short-sighted. i dunno if s1 sisko would have figured out so easily that the dominion was going to attack when they started mining the wormhole In this line I especially like Kira, one of the only cable-era trek females that got to be a multi-dimensional character. She starts full of rage and kinda racist, and by the end of the series is helping the Cardassian George Washington incite a revolt
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 21:13
|
|
|
when i was a kid i hated kira because she was just like, an emotional religious violent person to me, but revisiting the series like 20 years later as an adult she was one of my favourite characters because of everything you said. i actually find it kind of hard to categorize the cast of ds9 over one another except worf and dax who is just kinda boring i like viewing worf as an examination of how if you combine cultural aspects of human and klingon you get someone who is extremely bad at both and yet because hes so unique both empires cant help but keep promoting him even as he racks up catastrophic failure after failure
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 23:08
|
|
|
as per the thread title id like to nominate treachery faith and the great river as the best o'brien must suffer episode
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 23:11
|
|
|
Nebakenezzer posted:It's a theme on the show on how most of the cast members are alienated from their native cultures. Odo, Garak, Quark, Rom, Nog, (Actually all of Quark's family) and Worf are all outcasts, sometimes by choice. As mentioned, Sisko has rather understandable emotional issues and is being given a command post as he seems all burnt out in his previous career tracks. Kira is a small, impossibly angry person at the start of the show, and you get the impression that the Bajorians sent her to the station because 1) She's unquestionably a steadfast guardian of Bajor's interests, 2) Is an experienced terrorist/rebel, and thus excellent if the poo poo goes down, and 3) holy poo poo she's annoying, get her out of here. I mean, I'm pretty sure most of these characters have been formally thrown out of their societies for one reason or another. My point is less that they were/weren't alienated, and most that the marketing plays up DS9 as this roster of incompetents no one really wanted, when really most-if-not-all of them could find excellent gigs in Starfleet or elsewhere without that much trouble, even Quark, Odo, Nog, Garak, and Worf.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 23:31
|
|
|
mind the walrus posted:My point is less that they were/weren't alienated, and most that the marketing plays up DS9 as this roster of incompetents no one really wanted, when really most-if-not-all of them could find excellent gigs in Starfleet or elsewhere without that much trouble, even Quark, Odo, Nog, Garak, and Worf. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 23:46
|
|
|
"Or elsewhere."
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2020 00:06
|
|
|
mind the walrus posted:"Or elsewhere." I still think you're underestimating the difficulty of being a disavowed intelligence agent with few friends and tons of enemies, or being a unique alien that is part of a race in an existential war with the Federation
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2020 00:53
|
|
|
The Romulans or Ferengi would have taken him in a heartbeat if he really felt the Federation didn't have his back, and while it would have been a downgrade even further from being a tailor who is sometimes allowed to do Senior Staff Missions, he could have swung it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2020 01:28
|
|
|
mind the walrus posted:My point is less that they were/weren't alienated, and most that the marketing plays up DS9 as this roster of incompetents no one really wanted, when really most-if-not-all of them could find excellent gigs in Starfleet or elsewhere without that much trouble, even Quark, Odo, Nog, Garak, and Worf. garak cant leave ds9 dr bashir is there
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2020 01:50
|
|
|
Verviticus posted:as per the thread title id like to nominate treachery faith and the great river as the best o'brien must suffer episode Also one of the best episode titles in a series with some really excellent ones.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2020 02:15
|
|
|
Nebakenezzer posted:I dunno, I think an engineer would have great fun playing the destructor That for real looked fake as poo poo in theaters and just as bad on VHS.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2020 02:30
|
|
|
Angepain posted:keiko is clearly trying to set them up so they can form a deep and wholesome three-way relationship but they don't catch her signals and everyone misses out. that bajoran guy kira had the hots for was a dipshit anyway forget him. in this 90,000-word fanfic i will We know Keiko is a freak because of the TNG episode where she becomes a young girl and still wants O'Brien to gently caress her. mind the walrus posted:If Picard had to deal with Sisko's docket, he'd burn out and corrupt in some really awful way under the pressure that would end-- at best-- with a hasty resignation. Meanwhile Sisko couldn't handle mobile missions, he'd get caught in some conflict bad enough that he wouldn't want to pull out even when all the smart money says that's the better long play. Before you say "he did that all the time with Gamma Quadrant stuff" bear in mind he had DS9 to anchor him. He always had some rats nest to navigate. A flagship like Enterprise is always on the move. Not about the two captains, but this gets brought up in a good way when Odo is busting Worf's chops about blowing his operations because of his style not being suited for a space station. And how security on a starship is like a pass/fail either poo poo has hit the fan or it has not and we can fly off compared to DS9 being a station(  )ary place that has to keep people and stuff circulating smoothly to be functional. It's a good scene but also points out the strengths needed to run each well.
Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Jun 11, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2020 02:32
|
|
|
I did really love that scene and it's a great example of the writers understanding how to use the characters to bring the best out of each other. Pick posted:garak cant leave ds9 dr bashir is there
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2020 03:03
|
|
|
Hodgepodge posted:isnt it the "doctor turns to stims due to overworking himself" plotline? because they literally do that with the nice old white doctor in bsg Nah it was the former, he gets addicted to stims but IIRC it was handled well IMO and kinda implied that he was less addicted to stims and more addicted to the notion that he personally had to save everyone at all times and didn't need anyone to look out for him because he knows best, and him being saved from that does have an actual shift on how he rolls later on and it wasn't like a one and done single episode thing. There's sort of shades of this in a much much earlier episode where his plot was him wanting to operate on a an alien kid whose parents were forbidding it on sorta Mormon-esque religious grounds. And like yeah of course the kid should be operated on but his attitude about it came off as very elitist and off-putting. I don't know, he wasn't the most major character in the show but I remember liking how the character was handled in general. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Jun 11, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2020 03:08
|
|
|
mind the walrus posted:My point is less that they were/weren't alienated, and most that the marketing plays up DS9 as this roster of incompetents no one really wanted, when really most-if-not-all of them could find excellent gigs in Starfleet or elsewhere without that much trouble, even Quark, Odo, Nog, Garak, and Worf. Kind of the whole point with the Ferengi arcs is that Rom's skills are explicitly devalued by the Ferengi, and he's failed miserably at the role society pushed him into- and Nog has seen this, and he knows his father has talents and that the Ferengi see them as nothing more than a resource to be exploited. Quark on the other hand would be doing well by business standards but traditional Ferengi hate him, more than he seems to realise, because he makes compromises to function in galactic society. It's even mentioned later that the rest of the quadrant is sick of the Ferengi's poo poo so they're looking for new customers in the Gamma Quadrant who haven't heard of them. It's spelled out pretty clearly in the ep where Quark becomes an arms dealer- he's making money hand over fist, but DS9 command makes it clear they are looking for the first opportunity to kick him out til he makes a clean break with the business. And then when the FCA takes his license and assets the station crew find pretence to replace them and get his business started back up because they like having him around. Quark makes a big show of being a traditional Ferengi but his actions and behaviour indicate he really isn't, and actual traditional Ferengi hate him- of course, the irony is by the end the Ferengi have made radical social change for the same reasons as Quark, to start doing business more honestly because everyone already doesn't trust them, and Quark is left as a holdout that's traditionalist in comparison.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2020 03:46
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:Kind of the whole point with the Ferengi arcs is that Rom's skills are explicitly devalued by the Ferengi, and he's failed miserably at the role society pushed him into- and Nog has seen this, and he knows his father has talents and that the Ferengi see them as nothing more than a resource to be exploited. Quark on the other hand would be doing well by business standards but traditional Ferengi hate him, more than he seems to realise, because he makes compromises to function in galactic society. It's even mentioned later that the rest of the quadrant is sick of the Ferengi's poo poo so they're looking for new customers in the Gamma Quadrant who haven't heard of them. I feel like there's an interesting analysis to be done on the Ferengi society as DS9 portrays it in that it seems like a lot of the worst parts of their culture are rooted less in their capitalism OR their religion than in the toxic way those two have intertwined. Quark often applies his Alien-To-Federation-Types Capitalist mindset to problems in a constructive way, like when he talked about "The Price of Peace," to the Vulcan Maquis, or when he attempted to empathize with O'brien and Bashir's fears over Earth being bombed by the Dominion by comparing it to a time Fereginar was struck by an economic crisis. Simultaneously Nog helps us see the Ferengi religion in a positive way, talking about how trade and commerce are effective tools for bringing people together and providing what they need for happiness and prosperity. Both sides of the Ferengi can be very positive. Its when those two MIX that Ferengi seem to show their worst sides. There are several Rules of Acquisition that directly encourage exploiting those you trade with, espouse complete amorality in the conduct of business (Peace and War are both good for business), and even imply racial supremacism (A Contract is a Contract ONLY between Ferengi). Quark was ready to literally kill himself to settle his contractual obligations because of religious dogma regarding how capitalism should work, and it took a GENUINE religious experience to dissuade him. One of Quark's biggest moans about Zek's reforms is that the Rules don't get taught in schools anymore. Sanguinia fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Jun 11, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2020 04:06
|
|
|
Nebakenezzer posted:It's a theme on the show on how most of the cast members are alienated from their native cultures. Odo, Garak, Quark, Rom, Nog, (Actually all of Quark's family) and Worf are all outcasts, sometimes by choice. As mentioned, Sisko has rather understandable emotional issues and is being given a command post as he seems all burnt out in his previous career tracks. Kira is a small, impossibly angry person at the start of the show, and you get the impression that the Bajorians sent her to the station because 1) She's unquestionably a steadfast guardian of Bajor's interests, 2) Is an experienced terrorist/rebel, and thus excellent if the poo poo goes down, and 3) holy poo poo she's annoying, get her out of here. I mean, I'm pretty sure most of these characters have been formally thrown out of their societies for one reason or another. And it turns out eventually that Bashir is a genetic freak as well!
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2020 15:28
|
|
|
BiggestBatman posted:And it turns out eventually that Bashir is a genetic freak as well! Derp, that's right. He may have privileged genes but that's a big black mark in a society where similar people took over the world and then destroyed it Ghost Leviathan posted:Kind of the whole point with the Ferengi arcs is that Rom's skills are explicitly devalued by the Ferengi, and he's failed miserably at the role society pushed him into- and Nog has seen this, and he knows his father has talents and that the Ferengi see them as nothing more than a resource to be exploited. Quark on the other hand would be doing well by business standards but traditional Ferengi hate him, more than he seems to realise, because he makes compromises to function in galactic society. It's even mentioned later that the rest of the quadrant is sick of the Ferengi's poo poo so they're looking for new customers in the Gamma Quadrant who haven't heard of them.  The fact that Quark likes running his bar and meeting people is against the grain already. Meanwhile you have Rom go from viewed as worthless to becoming an accomplished engineer and marrying Leeta, and look at those two and tell me Rom didn't start making good when he stepped away from Ferengi culture
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2020 16:16
|
|
|
BiggestBatman posted:And it turns out eventually that Bashir is a genetic freak as well! Something something Steiner Math parody
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2020 20:17
|
|
|
Nebakenezzer posted:Derp, that's right. He may have privileged genes but that's a big black mark in a society where similar people took over the world and then destroyed it Dovetailed nicely with his intro on the show, wasn't he the only Starfleet person added that was like hell yeah gonna save these primitives with my whiz bang medical mastery. Frontier Medicine as he called it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2020 20:29
|
|
|
Yup, and he did it to Kira of all people. It was a nice way to show both that he's an arrogant jag and that for all of her anger she still isn't gonna straight-up murder fools.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2020 21:22
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2020 22:25
|
|
|
Verviticus posted:when i was a kid i hated kira because she was just like, an emotional religious violent person to me, but revisiting the series like 20 years later as an adult she was one of my favourite characters I hated the whole show when I was a kid, to be honest. Annoying Bajorans. Avery Brooks' very weird acting choices. They're on a station, they don't have a starship, how are they gonna have adventures? Dumb new uniforms. Bashir got on my nerves for some reason. Runabouts? Lame. I was a small part of the reason the DS9 intro was the highest rated episode and then viewership fell off a cliff. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2020 23:51
|
|
|
What's funny is that Brooks is pretty subdued at first. It's only toward the end of the series that he's a ham to rival Shatner. Also it makes a depressing amount of sense how high hopes would be for DS9 only for the first episode to tank early audience engagement. It's not even a bad episode but the Wormhole Aliens, Bashir and Dax being deliberately hard to like, and Quark being an acquired taste... yeah even if it didn't have all the other factors Animal-Mother mentioned it was still not doing itself any favors.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2020 00:02
|
|
|
Whenever people compare the cable-era treks, I always point out there's lots of secondary characters in DS9 that got *way* more development than primary characters on TNG
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2020 02:13
|
|
|
I don't like Avery Brooks's performance as it fits in with the rest of the cast. He's not a bad actor but I think he's from a completely different acting school and it's jarring. Some pushback against Sisko was pure racism but some of it was legitimately stage acting among TV actors.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2020 02:18
|
|
|
also the pilot is really really bad
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2020 02:18
|
|
|
As a kid I was super stoked on there being a new ST but soured on DS9 after only a few episodes. I was pissed that "how can you do a star TREK if you never trek anywhere?!?" Sisko rubbed me the wrong way in the first eps but I'm... pretty sure it wasn't childhood racism? I'd just come from Picard who was the best, because, duh. And a bit of Janeway, alright, fine. Very different captain style.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2020 04:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 16, 2024 16:03 |
|
|
Sisko comes off as kind of an rear end in a top hat tbh. Very righteously indignant often when it's not appropriate. I get he's pissed about his wife but Picard isn't Locutus and it's basically making GBS threads on a man with a horrific torture experience that occurred in service to the federation. It ~feels cool~ but it's actually cruel and a terrible first impression. Feels very 90s edgy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2020 17:33
|
|