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Knight Boat posted:What do you mean by any incarnation? Are you talking about the comics? Athena has been a major player there as an occasional ally albeit a manipulative one. I haven't read much of the comics, I mean more the movies and cartoons. Ares usually shows up, sometimes Hades and Hephaestus, even Hermes that one time, Hera and Zeus and even Hestia are mentioned, but no Athena.
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Jun 2, 2020 14:28
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Sanguinia posted:The Last Jedi is brilliant, and while it is not a virtually perfect movie like New Hope or Empire, it's clearly superior to every other movie in the "skywalker saga," in terms of themes, character development, clever use of established tropes and lore for the franchise, acting, and moments that are memorable for being good rather than hilarious trash. Yes that includes Jedi (though only barely, Jedi is also good). Its flaws are superficial in comparison to its successes and I find the need many of its defenders have to concede that its got its share of warts silly. Its ground that doesn't need to be conceded because those warts don't do anything to substantively mar the film. I don't feel this strongly about it, but it's for sure the only one of the Disney movies which I felt compelled to rewatch and had some memorable scenes and visuals
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Jun 2, 2020 19:22
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2house2fly posted:I don't feel this strongly about it, but it's for sure the only one of the Disney movies which I felt compelled to rewatch and had some memorable scenes and visuals I admit my positive feelings are probably on a bit of an extreme edge, though I don't cross the line of stanning and saying the movie is flawless, its clearly not. The power gap between TLJ and ESB/ANH in terms of technical and holistic quality as a story AND a film is indeed vast. Like I said, I just don't feel any of its flaws detract from it in a substantial way, not even the Casino Planet sequences.
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Jun 4, 2020 07:41
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My partner and I saw ROS a few weeks ago, and he really liked it, to my surprise, and vastly preferred it to TLJ. He thinks RJ really hosed up the narrative direction of the series and if the ideas and plot threads in ROS had been given more time to grow the end result would have been a lot more harmonious. He's the kind of guy that views films as a part of a greater extended universe, and is fine with important details relevant to the plot or story being lodged in a comic book or video game somewhere There's certainly a bit to unpack there. IMO, as individual movies in a vacuum, despite being a terrible film TLJ is the best of the ST by dint of trying to not be derivative of Star Wars, and aspiring to create something original, even if hamfistedly and ineptly. But I think having two directors with opposite takes on SW really hurt the overall...call it narrative cohesion, of the trilogy. JJ was clearly not interested in recreating the wheel. He wanted, for lack of a better phrase, a theme park experience. Come watch the new generation of rebels fight the empire, full of lightsabers and nostalgia, look, the millenial falcon, isn't that cool?! RJ wanted to make an actual movie, and welp, turns out those two approaches didn't mesh. It certainly didn't help that RJ relegated Finn to a glorified extra and got rid of JJs mystery boxes (that presumably were meant to have a payoff of some sort that now never happened). Either commit to the theme park experience, or try and do something original with the setting, don't half rear end that poo poo. There's a lot that can be said for the various ways the three ST films suck, but if they'd written out some sort of direction or plan it would have gone a long way to smoothing out the uneven experience of the ST. Not to absolve JJ in any way, his movie was a whole different kind of mess, especially the Luke plot. I do wonder though, how much executive meddling there was. Finns role becoming smaller and less important each film almost surely feels like such a decision. McCloud fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Jun 12, 2020 |
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Jun 12, 2020 02:52
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If Cyborg in Justice League is any indication, black people's plots are usually the first to go when the execs want cuts and changes.
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Jun 12, 2020 05:50
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Ghost Leviathan posted:If Cyborg in Justice League is any indication, black people's plots are usually the first to go when the execs want cuts and changes. They also cut out black Iris West. Weird coincidence
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Jun 12, 2020 06:40
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The Holdo stuff is hard to deal with because a) the Hot Topic haircut pulls you completely out of the verisimilitude of the movie, and b) she's a terrible commander who treats Poe like dirt and withholds crucial information from her subordinates(?) but then decides she likes(??) him after pushing him to a near mutiny(???), all of which is particularly off-putting since these are supposed to be "the good guys". The hyperspace charge is one of the greatest shots in all of Star Wars; too bad the road we took to get there was so bumpy.
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Jun 13, 2020 09:51
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Laterite posted:The Holdo stuff is hard to deal with because a) the Hot Topic haircut pulls you completely out of the verisimilitude of the movie, 
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Jun 13, 2020 09:56
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The whole 'Stop complaining, the Boss Lady knows what she's going' thing really did not age well
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Jun 13, 2020 10:10
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I dunno. I jsur think the hair complaint is silly
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Jun 13, 2020 10:11
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It's true that Star Wars always had silly hairdos for the few ladies on screen, people still make fun of Leia's Danish-rear end buns to this day... on the other hand, the Danish-rear end buns were at least colored normally, imagine if Leia in RotJ had weird Brigitte Nielsen hair. edit to make my point clear, I think it's ok to complain about Holdo's lovely hair and am tired of that complaint being framed as a chud thing every single time it comes up.
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Jun 13, 2020 10:18
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The whole 'Stop complaining, the Boss Lady knows what she's going' thing really did not age well It was bad in theater, but yeah.
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Jun 13, 2020 10:24
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Grendels Dad posted:It's true that Star Wars always had silly hairdos for the few ladies on screen, people still make fun of Leia's Danish-rear end buns to this day... on the other hand, the Danish-rear end buns were at least colored normally, imagine if Leia in RotJ had weird Brigitte Nielsen hair. Do me a favor and google Queen Amidala, and then tell me how complaints about Holdo's hair having the audacity to be purple is not loving dumb. Or how about any of the 5 tentacle hair alien races in Star Wars, are those not "weird," enough to somehow merit being mentioned as a substantive critique of those characters? Shall we discuss how Kit Fisto's lightsaber would chop all his tenta-dreds off and therefore he sucks Mr. Plinkett? How about Sabine in Rebels, who also has weird color-dyed hair, several in fact? Is that a noteworthy detraction from that show's quality? The complaint about purple hair IS a chud thing, because Colorful Hair On Woman is something Chuds have contributed to being coded as Liberal Feminist, and therefore it's almost as important for creating a direct bridge between legitimate criticisms of her writing to their "Man-Hating Faux-Empowered Feminazi," caricature as when they call her Admiral Clinton. If that makes you uncomfortable don't bring it up because "her hair color is distracting/weird for the setting," is already a lame criticism
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Jun 13, 2020 12:39
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Sanguinia posted:Do me a favor and google Queen Amidala, and then tell me how complaints about Holdo's hair having the audacity to be purple is not loving dumb. I have no idea what point you think you are making here, people tore into Amidala's outfits a lot. Admittedly they tended to complain more about wooden acting and whatnot, but Geisha Padme and BDSM Padme were absolutely a target of complaints. Those complaints are different from complaints about Holdo though because Amidala's wardrobe helps characterizing her. I would love to hear what Holdo's hair is saying about her as a character, apart from "Disney is aware of Liberal Feminism". I also have no idea why you bring up alien characters and a character from an animated series. Those tend to held to different visual standards, which is such a painfully obvious thing that I feel dumber for having to explain it to you. quote:The complaint about purple hair IS a chud thing, because Colorful Hair On Woman is something Chuds have contributed to being coded as Liberal Feminist, and therefore it's almost as important for creating a direct bridge between legitimate criticisms of her writing to their "Man-Hating Faux-Empowered Feminazi," caricature as when they call her Admiral Clinton. If that makes you uncomfortable don't bring it up because "her hair color is distracting/weird for the setting," is already a lame criticism Okay, so nobody can ever say a bad thing about women with colorful hair again I guess. I'll let it be then, because this has turned into exactly the lovely kind of finger pointing I am tired of.
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Jun 13, 2020 13:39
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In a universe where light-speed travel is commonplace, hair dye breaks my verisimilitude
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Jun 13, 2020 13:47
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Was the choice of hair color a coincidence? If not, what did they want to convey with that choice?
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Jun 13, 2020 13:58
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McCloud posted:Was the choice of hair color a coincidence? If not, what did they want to convey with that choice? that they were too cowardly to make FinnxPoe canon, but were totally woke
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Jun 13, 2020 14:04
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Amidala's thing is that she's literally a queen, in a culture that clearly values ceremony given her chrome spaceship and Naboo's general fancy European aesthetic, and has a variety of ceremonial and official outfits. IIRC, her signature royal look is based on a traditional Mongolian wedding dress. Holdo is more jarring because she otherwise looks relatively normal. Leia has the cinnamon buns, but they're a realistic if complex hairstyle, and with her dress and similar royal title they imply a formal appearance, and it's not her only look. Holdo as above doesn't look otherwise interesting enough to have pink hair say anything about her character.
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Jun 13, 2020 14:21
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Holdo's styling makes her look more like a politician (albeit one with funky hair) rather than a military commander. I would guess that was the intention: the audience are meant to look at her as not being capable and maybe someone who has politicked her way into her position. That's then supposed to be subverted when it turns out she did have a plan and Poe & co have hosed it up, except the subversion doesn't work because her plan is terrible anyway and her actions up to that point are still really questionable.
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Jun 13, 2020 15:06
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McCloud posted:Was the choice of hair color a coincidence? If not, what did they want to convey with that choice? It did not pay off and the filmmakers were putting way more faith in the audience than was warranted I mean the Holdo story works on a technical level. I understand both Poe and Holdo's perspective and really like that through Poe's eyes she seems to be untrustworthy, but man was it a bad instinct to run that particular story in the broader context of the movie.
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Jun 13, 2020 15:18
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Isaac's a great actor but the Poe character is such massive narrative dead weight that at best, never contributes anything important or interesting to the story, and at worst, actively impedes the development of the other characters. He clearly got turned into a major character because some executive decided that the sequel trilogy needed a blatant Han Solo analogue
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Jun 13, 2020 16:54
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Never forget that Amylin Holdo's homeworld is this:quote:Gatalenta I get what the writers were trying, but geez. It's like GOOP the Planet.
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Jun 13, 2020 17:27
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Joph Seastriker.
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Jun 13, 2020 18:43
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Tag yourself, I'm the soypro.
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Jun 13, 2020 18:47
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I want the Wookiepediesque explanation for the hair. Is there a thermal machine that schporches your hair a certain color of the spectrum? Is the dye made of bantha venom? Or did she go to the store, get a box of purple dye, and do it in her sink on board the republic starship?
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Jun 13, 2020 19:01
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Don't forget that in the lead-up to TLJ Disney marketed Holdo as the first LGBT character in a Star Wars film despite nothing in the actual film referencing or suggesting it
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Jun 13, 2020 19:14
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I'm the lengthy, erudite poetry
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Jun 13, 2020 19:28
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OctoberCountry posted:Don't forget that in the lead-up to TLJ Disney marketed Holdo as the first LGBT character in a Star Wars film despite nothing in the actual film referencing or suggesting it That wasn't something Disney marketed, just something people were speculating about based on the same licensed novel that filled in all this backstory people are citing from Wookieepedia. It's worth contrasting with TROS, which Disney and Abrams did actually promote.
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Jun 13, 2020 19:51
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Cease to Hope posted:That wasn't something Disney marketed, just something people were speculating about based on the same licensed novel that filled in all this backstory people are citing from Wookieepedia. It's worth contrasting with TROS, which Disney and Abrams did actually promote. Ah, I guess I was mixing clickbait article headlines with official marketing. Is it true that those characters kissing got removed from some of the international edits or was that just speculation?
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Jun 13, 2020 20:00
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OctoberCountry posted:Ah, I guess I was mixing clickbait article headlines with official marketing. Is it true that those characters kissing got removed from some of the international edits or was that just speculation? Some, but apparently not China, despite predictions.
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Jun 13, 2020 20:03
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Bogus Adventure posted:Never forget that Amylin Holdo's homeworld is this: This is really just the worst. Yikes.
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Jun 13, 2020 20:14
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Bogus Adventure posted:Never forget that Amylin Holdo's homeworld is this: Of course she's from the Core Worlds.
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Jun 13, 2020 21:09
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It's like white privilege.txt. A world full of yoga soccer moms drinking tea, reciting dumb poetry and eating only vegan soy products.
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Jun 13, 2020 22:17
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McCloud posted:It's like white privilege.txt. A world full of yoga soccer moms drinking tea, reciting dumb poetry and eating only vegan soy products. It's like they are openly baiting chuds into attacking the character, which on the one hand is super funny and makes me wish Holdo was the main character of the ST, and on the other hand is unfortunate because you can't ever say something negative about the character without being put into the chud camp by people who liked the movie and feel they need to defend it against the meanies.
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Jun 13, 2020 22:25
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Grendels Dad posted:It's like they are openly baiting chuds into attacking the character, which on the one hand is super funny and makes me wish Holdo was the main character of the ST, and on the other hand is unfortunate because you can't ever say something negative about the character without being put into the chud camp by people who liked the movie and feel they need to defend it against the meanies. I don't really buy into these reverse psychology narratives so much that it's just the same sort of lazy pandering story as all of the EU licensed writing.
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Jun 13, 2020 22:28
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Cease to Hope posted:I don't really buy into these reverse psychology narratives so much that it's just the same sort of lazy pandering story as all of the EU licensed writing. You are probably right, it's just that the toxicity surrounding the discussion of TLJ is so depressing that I would love to be able to pin it on malice rather than stupidity.
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Jun 13, 2020 22:33
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Love and compassion are practiced fondly on Gatalenta. Following orders without question, even when your friends and colleagues appear to be needlessly dying, is also considered a virtue.
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Jun 13, 2020 22:36
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Grendels Dad posted:It's like they are openly baiting chuds into attacking the character, which on the one hand is super funny and makes me wish Holdo was the main character of the ST, and on the other hand is unfortunate because you can't ever say something negative about the character without being put into the chud camp by people who liked the movie and feel they need to defend it against the meanies. OctoberCountry posted:Isaac's a great actor but the Poe character is such massive narrative dead weight that at best, never contributes anything important or interesting to the story, and at worst, actively impedes the development of the other characters. He clearly got turned into a major character because some executive decided that the sequel trilogy needed a blatant Han Solo analogue And Oscar Isaac is absolutely the right guy to embody that kind-of character and I really liked how he was this spiritual son of Han and Leia far more than Kylo/Ben was. But yeah... by the end of ROTS Poe is literally just a Han Solo xerox and it suuuuuuuuucks
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Jun 13, 2020 22:39
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It doesn't help that the screen crawl in TFA literally tells you "HEY, THIS GUY POE DAMERON IS SUPER COOL!!! YOU SHOULD LIKE HIM!!!"
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Jun 13, 2020 22:43
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Grendels Dad posted:It's like they are openly baiting chuds into attacking the character, which on the one hand is super funny and makes me wish Holdo was the main character of the ST, and on the other hand is unfortunate because you can't ever say something negative about the character without being put into the chud camp by people who liked the movie and feel they need to defend it against the meanies. I find I am ill equipped to properly formulate why this pisses me off so much. Like yeah, they're obviously using the pink hair to piss off the chud contingent, and that's good and great, but it's equally clear it's only hollow pandering to score brownie points with the fans. Performative wokeness is the phrase, I think? The same reason they marketed Finn as having a big role and then savagely slashed his character arc and screen time, and how Rey is just a hollow empty character. It's all just a kabuki theatre so they seem progressive without actually doing anything progressive, and reading about that bullshit Soccer mom planet really just drove the point home how cynical it all is. It also doesn't help that the movie tries to tell the audience how to feel about Holdo (she was clearly right and Poe was clearly being a dumbass for not following orders) instead of actually showing and convincing the audience that she was right. But then again, she needed to be secretive because that's the basis for sending Finn out to the Casino planet (you know, instead of doing something interesting with him rather than have him freeing horses instead of children). mind the walrus posted:You're really not wrong. Well sure, and it would have been fine if he'd been a supporting character to Finn and Rey's main characters, but instead he replaced Finn as the main character in TLJ and ROS, because no one could be arsed to give the black guy anything interesting to do (aside from vaguely hinting at him hooking up with two minority characters so that Rey can skype gently caress kylo)
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Jun 13, 2020 22:53
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