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josh04
Oct 19, 2008


"THE FLASH IS THE REASON
TO RACE TO THE THEATRES"

This title contains sponsored content.

Roth posted:

Trade secret: I joined SA primarily because BSS was one of the only places not tolerating comicsgate, and I wanted to talk about how cool and good Superman is without having to justify why black people should be in comics.

Feels like this should be a very basic standard for online or offline discussion, and yet.

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McCloud
Oct 27, 2005

I think it really says something that wearing a mask to protect yourself from a pandemic, on doctors advice, is now something controversial in the US.Culture wars has hosed that country up beyond fixing

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

McCloud posted:

I think it really says something that wearing a mask to protect yourself from a pandemic, on doctors advice, is now something controversial in the US.Culture wars has hosed that country up beyond fixing

My least favorite part of TROS is where Rey looks at the camera and says, "Masks are for stupid baby nerds."

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005

Cease to Hope posted:

My least favorite part of TROS is where Rey looks at the camera and says, "Masks are for stupid baby nerds."

I forget, is that before or after she passionately kisses Proud Boy Ren

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

McCloud posted:

I forget, is that before or after she passionately kisses Proud Boy Ren

Clearly you don't understand the deeper thematic meaning behind that, so there's no possible way I could explain it to you.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

Cease to Hope posted:

My least favorite part of TROS is where Rey looks at the camera and says, "Masks are for stupid baby nerds."

Wasn't that part in TLJ as well?

Sanguinia
Jan 1, 2012

~Everybody wants to be a cat~
~Because a cat's the only cat~
~Who knows where its at~

Milkfred E. Moore posted:

Wasn't that part in TLJ as well?

I think you'll find that in Last Jedi it is Kylo Ren who determines masks are for stupid babies.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005

Cease to Hope posted:

Clearly you don't understand the deeper thematic meaning behind that, so there's no possible way I could explain it to you.
I thought you were joking, and then I remembered she actually does that.

Boy that didn't age well

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005

Star Wars? Heh, more like Culture wars :smug:

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

McCloud posted:

I thought you were joking, and then I remembered she actually does that.

Boy that didn't age well

i was just loving around, but poo poo, you're right, she does actually say that in TFA

lmao

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

yeah thats pretty good


Masks are cool, IMHO.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016

Tulip posted:

Masks are cool, IMHO.

We should make it so that we wear Mortal Kombat masks

TheDeadlyShoe
Feb 14, 2014

pretense is my co-pilot

Milkfred E. Moore posted:


2. Luke's Jedi Academy is perhaps the most important part of the sequel trilogy and it's relegated to confusing exposition. Did Luke begin it out of obligation, or because he thought he was Luke Skywalker, Sith Slayer? What was the darkness inside Kylo? Prophecies - which is what Luke basically got from him - are frequently cheap tricks to justify a plot, and TLJ's was. How did Snoke reach out to Kylo and corrupt him? What really happened on that fateful night?

The reliance on prophecy is, in my mind, literally the worst part of the sequel trilogy. It is used in ways that are both extremely stupid and extremely lazy. Leia decides not to become a Jedi to...save Ben. Apparently. That was all they came up with for motivation? And it was a throwaway to boot! That *didn't work*! And the way that she 'saves Ben' involves her using force powers. Extending his life, what, an hour? This comes AFTER Ben murders his dad, murders her friends and war comrades and tries to murder her. How do you square this divine-grade turning of the cheek with Leia's other personality as a revolutionary firebrand and fighter against injustice? You cannot. It doesn't work. Maybe next time the Force could issue a useful prophecy, like 'don't enroll your kid in Uncle Luke's Discount Jedi School'.

Then there is Luke almost killing Kylo because of... a force prophecy! One that is so tangled up with cause-effect timey-wimey bullshit (Luke would never have attacked Kylo if it weren't for the force prophecy, Kylo would never have turned evil if Luke hadn't attacked him) as to become nonsensical. And this is Luke, who is a champion class turner of the cheek, it is the apotheosis of his character journey in ROTJ. If there's even a single person in the galaxy who wouldn't murder Space Hitler in the crib, it's Luke Skywalker. So in my mind despite the good job Hamill does with Luke-as-written in TLJ, the character has little connection to the Luke of the original trilogy other than occupying a convenient mentor-shaped hole in the plot. And they have to use a prophecy to bludgeon that into place.

quote:

Honestly, I'm not sure I have a single bad thing to say about Kylo. Adam Driver carried the films. The character is great but the films never knew how to handle him. TFA paints him as a powerful child, TLJ paints him as a furious warlord, TRoS makes him Emperor but also stupid.

Isn't this a little contradictory? A big reason his character is so fragmented across the films is that his character is difficult to handle and difficult to fit in with the rest of the cast. If Adam Driver is carrying the sequel trilogy, it's coming at the cost of mulching the plot and the rest of the cast under the weight of Kylo.

Though you can draw a direct parallel between Kylo Ren being a great character that doesn't fit into the films and all those 'Trailer Moment' action scenes that were bludgeoned in equally poorly.

TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Jun 18, 2020

SolarFire2
Oct 16, 2001

"You're awefully cute, but unfortunately for you, you're made of meat." - Meat And Sarcasm Guy!

TheDeadlyShoe posted:

The reliance on prophecy is, in my mind, literally the worst part of the sequel trilogy. It is used in ways that are both extremely stupid and extremely lazy. Leia decides not to become a Jedi to...save Ben. Apparently. That was all they came up with for motivation? And it was a throwaway to boot! That *didn't work*! And the way that she 'saves Ben' involves her using force powers. Extending his life, what, an hour? This comes AFTER Ben murders his dad, murders her friends and war comrades and tries to murder her. How do you square this divine-grade turning of the cheek with Leia's other personality as a revolutionary firebrand and fighter against injustice? You cannot. It doesn't work. Maybe next time the Force could issue a useful prophecy, like 'don't enroll your kid in Uncle Luke's Discount Jedi School'.

Plus Luke of all people knows that prophecies and visions of the future are extremely fallible and open to interpretation.

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

McCloud posted:

Poe's conflict with Holdo is dumb. They're being massacred and the Captains response is to do nothing? Oh but it turns out she actually had a plan, and if Poe had only followed orders things would have worked out just fine, he should have trusted the leadership, because they know what they're doing! But the captain couldn't just say that they had a plan or were working on a solution or anything though, because of...reasons? The "your leaders know best and you should shut up and follow orders" theme is reinforced by Leia and Holdo being angry at Poe for...saving all their lives by destroying that super-ship?

The Holdo/Poe dynamic is just basic compartmentalization, i.e., information security. I don't see anything wrong with what Holdo did. The reason she withheld information from Poe is because she knows his type: brash, arrogant, foolhardy, etc., why risk handing sensitive information over to someone like that when that person might just go do something stupid with that information? The irony is Poe does stupid things regardless and inadvertently ends up leaking the plan anyways, lmao. And who suffers for it? Holdo, who has to sacrifice her own life because Poe couldn't handle being out of the loop. Holdo was following protocol to ensure the safety of everyone onboard, but Poe was just being a basic bitch about the whole situation. The better question to ask, imo, is what reason is there for Poe to know the details of such a crucial operation? The guy is a glorified grunt imo, so what use is there in him knowing the escape plan?

quote:

Disney isn't going to follow that up with a movie where Finn organises a revolution that kills the rich and uses their assets for the betterment of the galaxy or whatever. It's half baked, poorly thought out and a clear indicator they had no idea what to do with FN, and I really dislike it. Oh, they also have enslaved sentient horses and slave children. Our heroes take a stand against slavery by freeing the horses. gently caress them kids though. You can tell Finn is a force sensitive because screwing kids over is a proud jedi tradition.

I think I responded to you in the CineD thread wrt why I like the Canto Bight scene, so I won't repeat those musings. But two things here: 1) Disney not following up what RJ had in mind for Rose and Finn is something I can't fault TLJ for. Sure, I can agree it does feel like a lack of foresight when you speak of it how you did, but it does seem like Trevorrow's take on Episode IX would have propped up the revolutionary Finn we saw sparked in TLJ. I guess Disney didn't like that narrative through-line for reasons lol (gently caress Disney), and 2) Rose and Finn weren't on Canto Bight to free anyone; they used the horses as a distraction so they could escape. That they were able to free the space horses was just a bonus. Whether or not you believe the horses stayed free and weren't immediately re-captured is up to your own purview though :)

teagone fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Jun 18, 2020

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

McCloud posted:

I think it really says something that wearing a mask to protect yourself from a pandemic, on doctors advice, is now something controversial in the US.Culture wars has hosed that country up beyond fixing

Honestly, I think the pandemic is trying to fix that. People ignoring public health recommendations are getting the CNV, they got the 'roni big time!

PeterWeller
Apr 21, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.

They free the horses instead of the children because they can't ride on the children to escape the cops.

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

PeterWeller posted:

They free the horses instead of the children because they can't ride on the children to escape the cops.

Also this.

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!
Poe isn’t just some grunt; he's very clearly Leia's protege, and by all appearances the ranking officer on the ship after the deaths of the entire command staff bar Leia. It seems to me like a basic failure of leadership for Holdo to take over an unfamiliar command, make a snap judgment that the man who holds the personal loyalty of almost everyone aboard cannot be trusted, and then refuse to even reassure him that she has some kind of strategy in mind other than “fly straight and wait to get killed.”

TheDeadlyShoe
Feb 14, 2014

pretense is my co-pilot

teagone posted:

The Holdo/Poe dynamic is just basic compartmentalization, i.e., information security. I don't see anything wrong with what Holdo did. The reason she withheld information from Poe is because she knows his type: brash, arrogant, foolhardy, etc., why risk handing sensitive information over to someone like that when that person might just go do something stupid with that information? The irony is Poe does stupid things regardless and inadvertently ends up leaking the plan anyways, lmao. And who suffers for it? Holdo, who has to sacrifice her own life because Poe couldn't handle being out of the loop. Holdo was following protocol to ensure the safety of everyone onboard, but Poe was just being a basic bitch about the whole situation. The better question to ask, imo, is what reason is there for Poe to know the details of such a crucial operation? The guy is a glorified grunt imo, so what use is there in him knowing the escape plan?

Poe is not a glorified grunt. He's the lead pilot, who in TLJ appears to be more in charge of the Resistance than either Leia or Holdo - even if you ignore that Poe is personally 75% of the Resistance's combat power thanks to his marvel superhero piloting skills. Saying that he doesn't deserve to know is also in direct contradiction to him being groomed for leadership. And the movie does little to establish that there might be a spy or other such problems in the Resistance that warrants secrecy, even when it would be easy.

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

I said he's a "glorified" grunt. He might have the respect and rank, but he still falls under chain of command, and remember, he also had recently been demoted by Leia herself due to his blatant insubordination. And I'm not saying Holdo's plan was the greatest or worst tactical endeavor, because that's just being pedantic. The point is Holdo had no reason to let Poe know what the plan was, and that made Poe furious lol.

Up Circle
Apr 3, 2008

teagone posted:

I said he's a "glorified" grunt. He might have the respect and rank, but he still falls under chain of command, and remember, he also had recently been demoted by Leia herself due to his blatant insubordination. And I'm not saying Holdo's plan was the greatest or worst tactical endeavor, because that's just being pedantic. The point is Holdo had no reason to let Poe know what the plan was, and that made Poe furious lol.

But that doesn't hold up at all. What stupid thing could he possibly do with the information that there was in fact a plan?

Nevermind that this whole idea exists beause of the plot contrivance written to set up the basic plot and tension of the movie, a very slow chase. That in turn creates this new contrivance that Holdo doesn't appear to know what she's doing and Poe just has to leap into action before disaster catches up to them, but in reality he should have had faith in his superior officer. Even though if he had faith they might also have been killed, as basically happens when her plan fails?

If you want to start using the logic of things like information security, then you have to question why the First Order isn't just destroying the rebels using fighters, or why the rebels sent all of their ships in the same location instead of splitting up, or a hundred other nonsensical things that don't stand up to the slightest scrutiny.

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!
I think my favorite part of Holdo's plan is how it hinges on the First Order forgetting to press their “detect cloaked ships” button when pursuing a fleeing enemy. I guess Snoke put all his budget into big ships and Starkiller and had to cut costs when it came to operating sensors during battle

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

Up Circle posted:

But that doesn't hold up at all. What stupid thing could he possibly do with the information that there was in fact a plan?

:shrug: I'm just judging the film based on what happens.

Up Circle
Apr 3, 2008

teagone posted:

:shrug: I'm just judging the film based on what happens.

And what I'm saying is that the film does not effectively convey the idea that what happens is something plausible or even the result of a coherent train of thought from any of the dozen or more characters with names and agency. Even in the limited confines of just this film's world, without considering that its set in the star wars universe, or even as a sequel to another film. This is what TLJ has most in common with any JJ Abrams film, which is that every event and every decision from the characters is completely divorced from the situation they are actually in. In order to create the mutiny plot from start to finish, every single person involved needs to function like a total fool in order for the story to happen and tell you the message the filmmakers wanted to show.

Zoran posted:

I think my favorite part of Holdo's plan is how it hinges on the First Order forgetting to press their “detect cloaked ships” button when pursuing a fleeing enemy. I guess Snoke put all his budget into big ships and Starkiller and had to cut costs when it came to operating sensors during battle

I really hate that entire sequence.

Up Circle fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Jun 18, 2020

SolarFire2
Oct 16, 2001

"You're awefully cute, but unfortunately for you, you're made of meat." - Meat And Sarcasm Guy!

teagone posted:

I said he's a "glorified" grunt. He might have the respect and rank, but he still falls under chain of command, and remember, he also had recently been demoted by Leia herself due to his blatant insubordination. And I'm not saying Holdo's plan was the greatest or worst tactical endeavor, because that's just being pedantic. The point is Holdo had no reason to let Poe know what the plan was, and that made Poe furious lol.

He's not a glorified grunt, he's a commanding officer.

PeterWeller
Apr 21, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.

He's been recently demoted for not following his superior's orders. And Holdo tells him there is a plan, just not what that plan is. They just got caught by the FO fleet when they thought they were safely away, and while Poe assumes Leia is right about hyperspace tracking and that assumption is borne out, Holdo doesn't know how they were caught, so she has a pretty good motive for keeping the plan a secret. Imagine if Poe just blurted out her plan in front of the wrong person and jeopardized its success. Or don't imagine that because you can watch him do it in the movie.

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

I'd agree that maybe they could've played up a narrative angle that maybe there's a mole on the ship feeding the First Order intel/coordinates of the Resistance fleet's location or something. But I felt the drama between Poe and Holdo was effective enough "as is" to demonstrate the whole need-to-know concept wrt top secret information and whatnot. But I get how that could be unsatisfying for some.

Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.

As somebody said probably in this thread, if you get mutinied against you've failed in your role as commanding officer. She may have been in the right to do so vis-a-vis chain of command, but it was a poor tactical decision. Seeing as he was recently an officer and something something starkiller base (TFA is pretty hazy at this point), the odds that Poe was the mole was pretty small.

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!
Poe still was an officer, he just got busted down a grade, an entirely formal thing because he was still actually in command of all the fighter pilots in the resistance (who remain loyal to him)

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!
I think an under discussed part of the sequels is how bad the starfighter combat is in each and every one of them. I think TLJ is actually the worst on that front, with Poe skating around doing whatever he wants on one end, then Kylo returning the favor in his three-man attack on the resistance fleet

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"
I'll try spinning! That's a good trick!

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
Do a barrel roll!

Up Circle
Apr 3, 2008

teagone posted:

I'd agree that maybe they could've played up a narrative angle that maybe there's a mole on the ship feeding the First Order intel/coordinates of the Resistance fleet's location or something. But I felt the drama between Poe and Holdo was effective enough "as is" to demonstrate the whole need-to-know concept wrt top secret information and whatnot. But I get how that could be unsatisfying for some.

This is why I can't even understand how you can praise the movie like you do. To me, almost every aspect of the film is like this. I understand what they are going for, but it isn't earned in the slightest. It's like at every point in the making of the movie they said "aw, gently caress it, thats close enough."

Up Circle
Apr 3, 2008

Zoran posted:

I think an under discussed part of the sequels is how bad the starfighter combat is in each and every one of them. I think TLJ is actually the worst on that front, with Poe skating around doing whatever he wants on one end, then Kylo returning the favor in his three-man attack on the resistance fleet

The end of TFA really felt like Abrams knew there was a scene in the original where the death star gets destroyed by fighters, but he didn't actually watch it.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Sanguinia
Jan 1, 2012

~Everybody wants to be a cat~
~Because a cat's the only cat~
~Who knows where its at~


THIS IS MY BANKAI, ICHIGO KUROSAKI!

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Sanguinia posted:

THIS IS MY BANKAI, ICHIGO KUROSAKI!



IT'S OVER 9000!!!!

Also, lol at this

TheDeadlyShoe
Feb 14, 2014

pretense is my co-pilot

Zoran posted:

I think an under discussed part of the sequels is how bad the starfighter combat is in each and every one of them. I think TLJ is actually the worst on that front, with Poe skating around doing whatever he wants on one end, then Kylo returning the favor in his three-man attack on the resistance fleet

One of the weaknesses of the ST is they've lost the connection to old war movies that animated Lucas's films. Part of that was that every fighter was a threat that had to be taken seriously, cuz that was the pattern of those movies. In contrast, Poe (and Kylo) are more treated as marvel superheros beating up mooks than they are treated as expert pilots conducting coordinated maneuvers.

TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Jun 18, 2020

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Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"
I hadn't seen Ep IX Palps, but :holymoley: :laffo:



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