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PMush Perfect posted:You can't just spam Guard? I wish, but then I wont get feared - and often the first person to get feared gets slapped awake by someone. Edit: Just managed a great fight where I could delay and they summoned 4 Phantom Masters. Everything is going to be allright. sloppy portmanteau fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Jun 19, 2020 |
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Jun 19, 2020 04:17
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The confusion about Sae's palace would be resolved if you played a phoenix wright game, honestly
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Jun 19, 2020 07:33
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Varinn posted:The confusion about Sae's palace would be resolved if you played a phoenix wright game, honestly 
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Jun 19, 2020 08:02
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Varinn posted:The confusion about Sae's palace would be resolved if you played a phoenix wright game, honestly In other, less political news:  
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Jun 19, 2020 08:13
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Varinn posted:The confusion about Sae's palace would be resolved if you played a phoenix wright game, honestly Edgeworth: Was pretty much brainwashed into it from age 9 by a guy straight out of 1871 Prussia, while dealing with the trauma of his father being brutally murdered in front of him, and being manipulated by the killer to think he might have done it. Franziska: See Edgeworth minus the part about dad being murdered. Godot: Turned to prosecution to fulfill a vendetta, and admitted he was being petty and lashing out. Sae: Something something MY DADDY DIED AND NOT BEING A SHITHEAD IS HARD  Yeah I don't know why people speculate about female Akechi, she's right fuckin' there.
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Jun 19, 2020 08:47
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PMush Perfect posted:The only thing missing from the Phoenix Wright games is the torture-induced confessions. Japan's criminal justice system is hosed.  This has been an extremely productive grinding session. This same Power previously upgraded Diarama to Mediarama and Zionga to Mazionga.
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Jun 19, 2020 08:50
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honestly at this stage in the game isn't that a downgrade due to SP costs
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Jun 19, 2020 08:52
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Gen. Ripper posted:Edgeworth: Was pretty much brainwashed into it from age 9 by a guy straight out of 1871 Prussia, while dealing with the trauma of his father being brutally murdered in front of him, and being manipulated by the killer to think he might have done it. Alternatively, Sae: Japan has a real problem with sexism and a woman in a position of power and visibility has a disgusting amount of pressure placed upon her. Results are all that matter and if she wishes to not be crushed under the weight of an entrenched patriarchy that actively wants to see her fail, she has to do anything and everything to prove she belongs here. All while supporting a sister who is still in school. I have many criticisms of P5 but Sae is not one of them.
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Jun 19, 2020 08:55
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PMush Perfect posted:The only thing missing from the Phoenix Wright games is the torture-induced confessions. Japan's criminal justice system is hosed. I think Phoenix suffers all that abuse (physical and mental, maybe even spiritual in Sprit of Justice?) in place of his defendants.
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Jun 19, 2020 09:07
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Francis posted:honestly at this stage in the game isn't that a downgrade due to SP costs Between my last post and this one, Samael's Resist Wind was also upgraded to a Null. 
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Jun 19, 2020 09:09
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NikkolasKing posted:Alternatively, I'd listen to this guy, his avatar shows he knows what he's talking about. Sae's not a perfect one-to-one for any of the prosecutors we actually go up against in the Ace Attorney games, but you can see a lot of the same issues and pressures around Edgeworth in the first game, and to a lesser extent Franziska in the second. But if you're a pedant that DEMANDS a direct comparison to an Ace Attorney character to understand Sae, then it's probably Lana Skye, the prosecutor suspect in the bonus case of AA1. A fundamentally good woman forced into a position where all she can do is fight for what she knows is a rigged system, for her sister's as well as herself. The only difference is that Sae's in a more realistic setting. One that doesn't need deep personal motivations derived from a single event to become a cog in that horrible machine; society puts that axe over her head, a Manfred von Karma isn't necessary.
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Jun 19, 2020 09:16
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NikkolasKing posted:Alternatively, It's almost like the point of the game is that hardship and getting hosed over by Living In A Society isn't an excuse to turn into a power-hungry psychopath, and the good guys are good because they don't do that.  If Persona 5 wasn't bending over backwards to absolve Sae from the slightest bit of consequences, she'd have been right next to Akechi in that boiler room screaming WHY IS ATTIC TRASH LIKE YOU MORE SPECIAL THAN ME, WHY DO YOU HAVE THINGS I DON'T.
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Jun 19, 2020 09:17
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When it comes to element resist skills, is it better to absorb or reflect damage?
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Jun 19, 2020 09:20
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Gen. Ripper posted:It's almost like the point of the game is that hardship and getting hosed over by Living In A Society isn't an excuse to turn into a power-hungry psychopath, and the good guys are good because they don't do that. Sae's personal resolution at the end of the game is legitimately one of the only satisfying character resolutions, though? She explicitly does what she can to help you on the way out, but otherwise completely abandons the system that is rigged in her favor to take on the lovely, sisyphean task of being a defense attorney on the losing end of said rigged system. So much of where P5 shits the bed is about incrementalism and 'changing from within!', and Sae explicitly doesn't do that, so I gotta say seeing people's vitriolic reaction to her arc is wild. It's like the only resolution they ACTUALLY get right.
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Jun 19, 2020 09:35
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Gen. Ripper posted:It's almost like the point of the game is that hardship and getting hosed over by Living In A Society isn't an excuse to turn into a power-hungry psychopath, and the good guys are good because they don't do that. This is a pretty tremendous misreading of the character. Sae is not a psychopath and what power-hungry elements she has are the result of being fundamentally powerless in a society that abuses her and everything she wanted to be. She is manipulated and abused and the reason she comes very close to breaking completely is because that is not a healthy place for anyone to be. You go "the protagonists are good because they don't do that" but the entire point of the protagonists is they got the power to do something. They actively were given through magic the opportunity to do something they could not before that. Sae doesn't get the magic power that lets her escape the confines of reality. Sae does not have magic powers. She is forced to play within the rules until the moment the Phantom Thieves offer her the option to do something different. Edit: Like hell, it's worth remembering something here: The literal framing device of the story is Sae trying to find out the truth. She expresses active disgust at what happened to the protagonist and while she is demanding he admit his crimes she also wants to hear the actual truth. She is a character who actively exhibits growth and regret for her previous actions and does everything in her power to make up for them. She is not a psychopath in the slightest and the guilt and frustration she feels over being trapped in a bad situation is what informs a huge part of her character. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 09:48 on Jun 19, 2020 |
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Jun 19, 2020 09:35
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Yeah, I don't think you understand the game as well as you think you do, Ripper. I'd actually say that a huge point of the game is standing up to entrenched and abused power structures. And Sae's an important facet of that, because she's both the abuser and the abused. She's forced through a heavily misogynistic and high-pressure society and line of work to become one of the people exploiting that system herself, because she gets eaten up by it if she doesn't. She makes the tough choice to try standing against that system in the end without any real power of her own, and while you seem to be dismissing that as 'the game bending backwards to absolve her' the truth is she's probably the character in the cast making the single hardest choice. I'm sure your Cognitive Sae is an awful, terrible person worthy of everything you envision. But in the actual game she's really not.
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Jun 19, 2020 09:46
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Sae had a genuine redemption arc but because she worked with cops it's not enough. She ends the game as a defense attorney in Japan. If you don't think that's a punishment and an atonement then you haven't been paying attention to the Japanese legal system or what her palace has to say about it.
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Jun 19, 2020 09:51
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Mraagvpeine posted:When it comes to element resist skills, is it better to absorb or reflect damage? Iirc in terms of "rank" Reflect is higher than Absorb (sometimes matters for skill inheritance), but Absorb is definitely the safer choice for me, since if the opponent absorbs the element then they get big heals for no reason. In the games that use Press Turn, both get rid of all turns too so either is fine in that regard.
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Jun 19, 2020 09:53
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You should be able to cast spells on yourself to profit off Absorb. Or so Yukiko can literally roast Teddie.
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Jun 19, 2020 10:00
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Artelier posted:Iirc in terms of "rank" Reflect is higher than Absorb (sometimes matters for skill inheritance), but Absorb is definitely the safer choice for me, since if the opponent absorbs the element then they get big heals for no reason. In the games that use Press Turn, both get rid of all turns too so either is fine in that regard. Edit: Plus, Absorb lessens the item and SP tax of post battle healing, which can be nice.
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Jun 19, 2020 10:02
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I believe Strange Journey's damage calculation system lets people do crazy things with Reflect damage. So maybe in that game Reflect is better. Off the top of my head damage is calculated first, then only reflected. So if you bring in weak demons and get them to reflect an attack you could do tens of thousands in one turn
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Jun 19, 2020 10:32
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ImpAtom posted:You go "the protagonists are good because they don't do that" but the entire point of the protagonists is they got the power to do something. quote:The literal framing device of the story is Sae trying to find out the truth. Gen. Ripper fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Jun 19, 2020 |
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Jun 19, 2020 10:45
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Strange Journey also made reflected damage non-elemental, which I don't understand how it didn't become a default thing in all subsequent games.
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Jun 19, 2020 10:56
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SJ and IV(A) don't reflect attacks. They calculate and then reflect the damage itself. It's silly, especially when you consider that they're actually pretty okay with you naturally reflecting things. Mostly can't use -Karns/Mirrors, sure, but if its an innate Repel (even if it's from a skill) and that's not perfectly fine. Saying that, IV does let you use the Karn spells without it triggering negative repercussions all the way up to the final dungeon. Pretty sure Apocalypse adjusted that, at least, though.
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Jun 19, 2020 11:07
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There are a few cases where you're going to want Null over Absorb/Repel, since the latter can trigger specific AI (for instance, in one case in P5, using Repel/Absorb Physical makes a certain sub-boss spam Megido, while going with Null has them just use Rising Slash futilely). Honestly, just going with Null is the 'safest' option outside of the bonus fight in P3.
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Jun 19, 2020 11:11
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Gen. Ripper posted:But even before that, there were lines they didn't or weren't willing to cross. Ann wasn't actually sleeping with Kamoshida for preferential treatment. Ryuji didn't become a mini-Kaneshiro. Makoto didn't become a Sae clone. Futaba didn't become an Akechi-esque serial killer. There's a difference between being jaded and being outright evil. Not to mention all the Confidants. What do you think would have happened in a few years in most of these cases, given the lack of an opportunity to make change? You really don't think Ann would have eventually given in to the constant sexualization of herself by everyone in society after another ten years or so? You don't think Ryuji, constantly beaten down in his every effort to improve himself by everyone in authority, wouldn't have eventually found a different system that would at least treat him well? You don't think that Makoto would have gone right down the lane Sae was creating for her, despite the fact that we already see she's willing to become an informant for her high school principal? And without any of them hitting their self-actualization through magic powers, what would have happened to Futaba? She would have stayed locked in that room forever, her only point of contact with the world being Sojiro, who is himself insufficient to get her out of there. She wouldn't have become a serial killer, no. She would have just slowly rotted away in her own prison, tortured endlessly by self-hatred. You're mistaking a lack of constant exposure for pure willpower. Yes, the kids overcome their poo poo, but the point is that they're going to have to keep doing that, again and again and again, until eventually it's too much and they start making compromises. And after that, it's not long before they look at themselves and realize they're perpetuating the same system that they hate and that hated them. At that point they can choose any number of excuses, they can sink into self-pity, or actively embrace it as the way of the world, or, if they're very strong, try to do what little good they can in the hell they've created. This is heavy for a video game discussion, but I think there's a flaw in your way of seeing the world here. Kids and adults cannot and should not be judged by the same metric. And that goes both ways, too - Akechi should not be condemned. He was raised from a young age into becoming what he was by a ruthless sociopath. He, among all the other children, is the only one who was actually subjected to the full weight of the world from the beginning, and he is meant to be an example of how the system can crush even the young if it starts early enough. The others all had varying degrees of shelter from it, including Joker himself. Joker was subject to a single, relatively severe example of society's corruption, but was never expected to take part in it the way Akechi was. And now let's look at how hard it was for the party to stand up against Kamoshida, without their magic powers. Imagine that, except far more severe and far younger, while being completely alone, and you have Akechi. Of course he folded, of course he gave in. I don't really like Persona 5's story that much, I think that a lot of what I've said here gets glossed over in it, but I think your read is extremely off here Ripper.
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Jun 19, 2020 11:14
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Gen. Ripper posted:Makoto didn't become a Sae clone I love Makoto dearly, but I gotta say, her entire wrap up is "I'm going to join the system and reform it from the inside!" It's absolutely worse than Sae's, she completely capitulates to the system of rigged law that Sae rejects in her finale. It cannot be overstated enough how much you've picked like the only plot beat in p5 most people don't have any issue with
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Jun 19, 2020 11:24
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Varinn posted:I love Makoto dearly, but I gotta say, her entire wrap up is "I'm going to join the system and reform it from the inside!" It's absolutely worse than Sae's, she completely capitulates to the system of rigged law that Sae rejects in her finale. Out of all of the Persona party members that decide to go be cops, Makoto at the very least strikes me as the least likely to go and do lovely cop things. She's got strong voices in her life to show her alternatives, and seems to only be into the idea for vague 'Making A Difference' reasons. Naoto's a little more worrying because she's basically been into it from when she was a kid. But at the same time, I don't think she wants to be a cop so much as she wants to solve mysteries, so Naoto is definitely going to quit and go be a private investigator or possibly join Mitsuru's anti-Shadow group; that's inevitable, it's just a matter of how long it takes. But Chie is absolutely going to get filmed brutalizing someone for spurious reasons.
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Jun 19, 2020 11:43
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the dream is that chie abandons being a cop after the events of ultimax to be a weird martial arts vagrant with akihiko imo
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Jun 19, 2020 11:45
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I was under the impression Naoto was already a private investigator, she just sometimes works with the police (until they tell her to go away).
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Jun 19, 2020 11:55
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Varinn posted:I love Makoto dearly, but I gotta say, her entire wrap up is "I'm going to join the system and reform it from the inside!" It's absolutely worse than Sae's, she completely capitulates to the system of rigged law that Sae rejects in her finale. Varinn posted:the dream is that chie abandons being a cop after the events of ultimax to be a weird martial arts vagrant with akihiko imo Chie's a bastard, Makoto is a bastard, akihiko is a bastard, Mitsuru is a multi millionaire CEO, Haru is working on taking over her dads poo poo AND open her own chain to become one as well, Yukiko is a upper middle classs small business tyrant, Yosuke is the son of a corporate franchiser coming to destroy the lives of the working class, Naoto is a private bastard. Achieve Class Solidarity with Junpei and face to bloodshed.
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Jun 19, 2020 12:41
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Cleretic posted:Out of all of the Persona party members that decide to go be cops, Makoto at the very least strikes me as the least likely to go and do lovely cop things. She's got strong voices in her life to show her alternatives, and seems to only be into the idea for vague 'Making A Difference' reasons. Makoto's is gonna get murdered by other cops like her dad.
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Jun 19, 2020 12:46
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MonsieurChoc posted:Makoto's is gonna get murdered by other cops like her dad. ...poo poo, you're right.
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Jun 19, 2020 12:56
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Makoto beat up an abuse victim. According to 5S spoilers, she beats up TWO abuse victims. ACAB and that includes Makoto.
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Jun 19, 2020 12:57
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P5 is a game that repeatedly show that societies ruling forces are corrupt from the bottom to the very top and its not just part of one person's crimes of conspiracy and Makoto, upon learning all the horrors of this world, decides to be a cop, but like.....a good one. Either the writers are incredibly stupid or Makoto the character is.
ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 13:07 on Jun 19, 2020 |
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Jun 19, 2020 13:02
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What happens to Chie and Naoto depends on if Mitsuru can convince them to work for her instead of the police.
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Jun 19, 2020 13:06
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PMush Perfect posted:What happens to Chie and Naoto depends on if Mitsuru can convince them to work for her instead of the police. Oh boy so she's either a cop or working as super powered private security for a multi-millionaire CEO.
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Jun 19, 2020 13:07
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ZMB's tone here just seems ridiculously hostile for no good reason and it's kind of exhausting. Like, yes. Makoto becomes a cop. We know this. We have talked about this. You are not being clever, brave, or insightful by pointing it out.
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Jun 19, 2020 13:09
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Oh boy so she's either a cop or working as super powered private security for a multi-millionaire CEO.
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Jun 19, 2020 13:10
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:P5 is a game that repeatedly show that societies ruling forces are corrupt from the bottom to the very top and its not just part of one person's crimes of conspiracy and Makoto, upon learning all the horrors of this world, decides to be a cop, but like.....a good one. Either the writers are incredibly stupid or Makpto the character is. does p5 have bad beat cops in it? I really can't remember any, and the message 'well it's corrupt from the top down to almost the bottom' is a really stupid response that takes in line makoto's dad being a perfect angel hero cop while still accounting for the up and coming sae being bad because of her ambition, not the system i'm not going to agree with the writing about rebellion from high ups in corporate culture but it feels like the tone of the whole game was 'yeah it could be good if smart kids fixed it'
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Jun 19, 2020 13:10
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