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Voyager I posted:
I don't think Shadow Weaver was committing an act of redemption. She's doing something that looks like an act of redemption so that she doesn't have to deal with the consequences of what she's done in the past, or live in a world where nobody in power has any further use for her as she is. To her, the writing on the wall is "Change or Die", and she picked "Die." and especially "Die in a way that makes Catra and Adora doubt what they thought about her."
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Jun 17, 2020 17:48
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I'm not sure how people missed the obvious catadora setups but I'm also very gay and have honed my shipping skills like a fine blade of Hanzo steel
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Jun 17, 2020 19:49
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T-man posted:I'm not sure how people missed the obvious catadora setups but I'm also very gay and have honed my shipping skills like a fine blade of Hanzo steel Apparently CIS men really are that dumb. FWIW it was always intensely obvious that there was nothing and nobody in the world they cared about more than each other even after everything that had happened between them, I just didn't register that their relationship was anything more than platonic (and also didn't feel that it necessarily had to be romantic to be that powerful).
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Jun 17, 2020 20:03
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It's easy to read Catra and Adora as sisters, having grown up together and been raised by the same parent figure and even dealing with abusive family dynamics. While I like the way their relationship went, something more familial would make just as much sense. I just finished watching the series myself last night, and the only problem I had with the ending was also one I had with previous season ends - there was basically no denouement. Each character got 3-10 seconds to say "this is how they are now" and a slightly longer scene for the main ones but that's it. It could really have benefited from some form of epilogue just to pay off how finally ending all the wars changes the setting and characters.
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Jun 17, 2020 20:24
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I was kind of obvious they were being teased at about the point Catra deep-dipped her at the dance and Adora stuck her knee between Catra's legs. Theres a bunch of shots in that episode where it would look like they're dating in another context. Or just about to kiss.
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Jun 17, 2020 22:05
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It definitely seemed like it was being foreshadowed in s1, but then their romantic tension is pretty de-emphasised until s5. But it sounds like that's because there was significant pushback against the showrunners' desire to tell this story, and they had to fight for everything they got.
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Jun 17, 2020 22:13
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Android Blues posted:It definitely seemed like it was being foreshadowed in s1, but then their romantic tension is pretty de-emphasised until s5. As an Actual Gay, this is my read too. There was questionable flirting sorta kinda, like you could read it either way. But then it felt like they deliberately torpedoed it until S5 when it resurfaced as much clearer feelings.
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Jun 17, 2020 22:32
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Honestly I just saw that as Catra torpedoing -herself- due to adora's perceived abandonment and rejection. It takes a while to get through those kind of feelings and in the meantime reminders can hurt like gently caress so all you want is to make it go away.
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Jun 17, 2020 22:45
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Tenebrais posted:It's easy to read Catra and Adora as sisters, having grown up together and been raised by the same parent figure and even dealing with abusive family dynamics. While I like the way their relationship went, something more familial would make just as much sense. Even in S1 it's obvious it's way more then just family from the sheer level of emotion Catra puts out specifically about Adora leaving her and getting other friends. The level of possessiveness alone is enough to go "wait, this isn't normal" no matter what you read off it. It's like a reverse Superntural, it's very easy to figure out Sam and Dean are each other's only family and they don't have non-work friends, but they're 100% not gay for each other despite what the fan-base obsesses over. Watermelon Daiquiri posted:Honestly I just saw that as Catra torpedoing -herself- due to adora's perceived abandonment and rejection. It takes a while to get through those kind of feelings and in the meantime reminders can hurt like gently caress so all you want is to make it go away. Everything about Adora from S1-S4 was Catra always acting irrationally as soon as Adora became a factor and borderline obsessed with showing her up or proving she doesn't need her. The constant attempt to go "look how great I'm doing now" feels like something you see 99% of the time when it comes to a romantic love relationship and not a broken platonic one. The kind of self destruction is linked to a lot deeper issues then "my sister has new friends"
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Jun 17, 2020 22:56
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I had kind of assumed they'd had a relationship, but that it was effectively finished after Catra chose to destroy reality out of spite. I admit I was surprised to see it come back.
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Jun 17, 2020 23:24
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Madurai posted:I had kind of assumed they'd had a relationship, but that it was effectively finished after Catra chose to destroy reality out of spite. I admit I was surprised to see it come back. The Ultimate Tsundre Move
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Jun 17, 2020 23:26
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Madurai posted:I had kind of assumed they'd had a relationship, but that it was effectively finished after Catra chose to destroy reality out of spite. I admit I was surprised to see it come back. This was my feel of it. The first three seasons spent a lot of time emphasizing just how thoroughly Catra had burned that bridge with her need to show up and abuse Adora at every turn, and then how much she'd burnt all the other ones in her life after it.
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Jun 17, 2020 23:44
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Yeah I was reading their relationship as something like Nebula and Gamora. EDIT: I definitely noticed the intensity of Catra's jealousy and abandonment issues, but I think I just figured they were emphasizing her emotions to make them more readable to kids. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Jun 17, 2020 |
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Jun 17, 2020 23:46
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T-man posted:The Ultimate Tsundre Move I........it's not like I want to kiss so you so can save the world!!
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Jun 19, 2020 00:16
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Voyager I posted:I don't think I loved Bow and Glimmer getting together. They kinda had chemistry, but I liked the show letting a boy and a girl be best friends without having to be romantic partners. Earlier in this thread someone commented that Bow and Glimmer get the treatment queer couples always get, where their relationship is barely focused on, could be edited out without changing anything, there's no big kiss, and you kind of have to squint to see it. And I love it for that reason alone. That said, having rewatched this season I actually enjoy that relationship more than I expected. Bow and Glimmer's arc is very much backgrounded, but when you know that's where they're going, you can pick up on it more. After paying attention to them more on the rewatch, the relationship felt earned by the end. quote:Shadow Weaver's act of redemption seemed a little forced? I know it's stortytelling tradition to have the most reprehensible antagonist commit a heroic sacrifice both to a) prove they really meant it and b) not have to deal with the consequences of what an rear end in a top hat they were previously, but Weaver hadn't really shown any signs of recrimination beforehand. I wouldn't even call it an "act of redemption". Shadow Weaver's characterization is a gaslighting and abusive relationship taken to the nth degree. And part of that kind of manipulativeness is making these grand gestures to "prove" their love, which they can bring up any time someone tries to question the day-to-day lovely things they do. When you put that kind of behavior into the context of a magic fantasy series, then of course you get literal self-immolation. That "you're welcome" was a really incredible line for this characterization. (Noelle Stevenson talked about all this more in an interview, btw.)
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Jun 19, 2020 01:16
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I cheered when the manipulative bitch that ruined the lives of two kids died - shedding tears for her is a waste of good salt water
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Jun 19, 2020 02:50
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My reading was more wondering if they were together before the series and the show was dancing around it cause they weren't allowed to say it.
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Jun 19, 2020 05:31
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I don't think shadow weaver was redeemed in the same sense that anyone's actually redeemed by death. Her 'heroic sacrificial death' just happened to line up with her specific neurosis perfectly and that's really how abusive parents do be like. They're not intrinsically monsters they're just addicts and flawed people (shadow weaver being: both) who tear holes in those people who are forced to mesh with them by family ties or other structures till they either are compatibly damaged or distance themselves. Shadow-weavers whole heel turn was kind've a metaphor for 'distancing' in that she was dis-empowered without the power structure of the horde and held no sway over Adora or even Catra who were both officially over her poo poo but even than she was still trying to latch onto Glimmer because she is and always would be fundamentally herself. Basically abusive people suck and its up to you how you deal with them because they'll rarely change fundamentally especially if they're old. But its also ok to continue to have a relationship with them if re-contextualizing works out but also than they die and its almost a waste of time trying to decide weather they were good or bad because ultimately they just Were and now Aren't. Death doesn't do narrative or closure it just takes
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Jun 19, 2020 13:16
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pentyne posted:Everything about Adora from S1-S4 was Catra always acting irrationally as soon as Adora became a factor and borderline obsessed with showing her up or proving she doesn't need her. The constant attempt to go "look how great I'm doing now" feels like something you see 99% of the time when it comes to a romantic love relationship and not a broken platonic one. The kind of self destruction is linked to a lot deeper issues then "my sister has new friends" Yeah. Adora’s feelings are a lot less blatant and she has a separate, more pronounced interest in a different type of woman entirely that I could totally see someone reading her side of the relationship as sisterly. But Catra? I have a hard time understanding people who can watch her act out and obsess over Adora for four seasons and not see it as her being in crazed romantic agony. Maybe it’s something you need to have lived to pick up on.
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Jun 20, 2020 09:37
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Sio posted:Maybe it’s something you need to have lived to pick up on. I'm a cishet dude and it was extremely obvious to me
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Jun 20, 2020 13:53
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I have never known or given love so I assumed it was a self-destructive obsession that would've ended with one of them either dead or comatose at the end after things escalated to attempting to blow up reality in season 3. But between me being bad at reading media and a couple or few trans people (I don't remember if I should be using a space for it or not, sorry) saying something along the lines of 'Yeah, being melodrammatic enough to blow up the universe is a mood' I was kinda willing to accept any direction the show went so long as it wasn't weird comic book directions like Adora climbing out of a husk of her own body like a molting crab.
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Jun 20, 2020 14:12
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Honestly not picking up on Catra's feelings in the show is like the least problematic reading of the show I've seen in this thread. Someone calling Shadow Weaver not that bad because she was a mother and all mothers abuse their kids was a real  moment.
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Jun 20, 2020 16:15
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Honestly, CATra suddenly becoming aggressively single-mindedly obsessed with Adora the second she stops paying attention to her makes a ton of sense in hindsight.
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Jun 20, 2020 16:58
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RareAcumen posted:Honestly, CATra suddenly becoming aggressively single-mindedly obsessed with Adora the second she stops paying attention to her makes a ton of sense in hindsight. Adora didn't "stop paying attention to" Catra. She left the Horde because the Horde sucks. Adora even asked Catra to go with her but Catra refused. Adora absolutely hated leaving Catra behind but she was thinking of the bigger picture and Catra was only thinking about herself.
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Jun 20, 2020 18:34
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Hey look, I found a recap of She-Ra that summarizes the entire plot: http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=327
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Jun 20, 2020 18:35
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SardonicTyrant posted:Hey look, I found a recap of She-Ra that summarizes the entire plot: It’s going to be the Nemesis comic isn’t it?
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Jun 20, 2020 18:39
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Elephant Ambush posted:Adora didn't "stop paying attention to" Catra. She left the Horde because the Horde sucks. Adora even asked Catra to go with her but Catra refused. Adora absolutely hated leaving Catra behind but she was thinking of the bigger picture and Catra was only thinking about herself. Yeah, the last season trying to insert this whole idea that Adora doesn't stay because she left an abusive situation to do something decent with her life, and that Adora takes on too much when she's spent the entire series relying on all of her friends in the Princess Alliance, fell pretty drat flat to me. "For once please stay" is a ridiculous request because the only real time she didn't was when she abandoned the Horde, and when she did that she tried to bring Catra with her. And by the time Catra is saying this, she should probably have realized that would've been the better choice.
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Jun 20, 2020 18:52
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Ironslave posted:Yeah, the last season trying to insert this whole idea that Adora doesn't stay because she left an abusive situation to do something decent with her life, and that Adora takes on too much when she's spent the entire series relying on all of her friends in the Princess Alliance, fell pretty drat flat to me. "For once please stay" is a ridiculous request because the only real time she didn't was when she abandoned the Horde, and when she did that she tried to bring Catra with her. And by the time Catra is saying this, she should probably have realized that would've been the better choice. To be fair to Catra, she hadn't seen what Adora saw. To Catra, Adora was suddenly saying and doing crazy things that made no sense. It's easier for Catra to think that the Princesses had somehow tainted Adora than to question the Horde. The first season is incredibly well written and both Catra and Adora's perspectives make sense. And no, Adora's whole thing was running off on her own trying to save everyone by herself. She never listened to anyone trying to hold her back because she wanted everyone to just stay out of danger. It was by far her biggest flaw and she paid for it numerous times. Catra asking her to stay, just once, made perfect sense.
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Jun 20, 2020 18:58
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Elephant Ambush posted:To be fair to Catra, she hadn't seen what Adora saw. To Catra, Adora was suddenly saying and doing crazy things that made no sense. It's easier for Catra to think that the Princesses had somehow tainted Adora than to question the Horde. I think it’s more that Catra wasn’t willing to question herself and her role in the world. She never shared Adora’s naïveté when it came to the Horde’s true nature, and so there was never any big moral revelation for her in the first season. She already knew the Horde was evil (she laughs when Adora tries to present this as breaking news) and had deeply internalized her abusive upbringing to the point where she didn’t think she could do better.
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Jun 20, 2020 19:37
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The "gently caress it nothing changes" response to abuse is both the easiest and the most toxic option. Adora, himbo as she is, never lost her sense of control over her life. Catra, quite clearly, had that taken from her by SW.
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Jun 20, 2020 19:44
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Sio posted:I think it’s more that Catra wasn’t willing to question herself and her role in the world. She never shared Adora’s naïveté when it came to the Horde’s true nature, and so there was never any big moral revelation for her in the first season. She already knew the Horde was evil (she laughs when Adora tries to present this as breaking news) and had deeply internalized her abusive upbringing to the point where she didn’t think she could do better. That's also true!
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Jun 20, 2020 20:31
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Elephant Ambush posted:Adora didn't "stop paying attention to" Catra. She left the Horde because the Horde sucks. Adora even asked Catra to go with her but Catra refused. Adora absolutely hated leaving Catra behind but she was thinking of the bigger picture and Catra was only thinking about herself. I was just making a joke about cats wanting nothing to do with you if you seem excited to see them. 
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Jun 20, 2020 22:46
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RareAcumen posted:I was just making a joke about cats wanting nothing to do with you if you seem excited to see them. It is okay 
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Jun 21, 2020 02:03
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Shadow Weaver's end makes perfect sense to me - she's lost all control over Catra and Adora, so she does and says the one thing guaranteed to let her live rent-free in their minds forever. As for me I don't not like Catradora, and it was obvious as hell, but the whole 'Shadow Weaver's scapegoat/golden child pet project' mechanic puts a bit of a sour note on it for me, won't lie. Maybe I spend too much time reading the estranged parents thread, I can't help reading that as more familial than a traditional rivalry relationship. More a 'me' thing than a 'the show' thing, I think.
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Jun 22, 2020 00:26
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https://twitter.com/igaratara/status/1273947408343240704
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Jun 23, 2020 08:39
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Jun 23, 2020 13:12
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That future came true 
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Jun 23, 2020 13:16
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I don’t remember the last time I was still thinking about a show 3 days after I had finished it. Guess I will need to do a rewatch sooner then I anticipated. Are there any good analysis/essays talking about all the stuff I could’ve missed as a cishet, that I could read in the mean time?
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Jun 23, 2020 14:20
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Hipster Rooster posted:I don’t remember the last time I was still thinking about a show 3 days after I had finished it. Guess I will need to do a rewatch sooner then I anticipated. Honestly, I'd say the most easily missable stuff if it's outside your personal experience is about the inner workings of narcissists and narcissistic parental abuse, which shapes a significant part of the show.
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Jun 23, 2020 14:34
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Hipster Rooster posted:I don’t remember the last time I was still thinking about a show 3 days after I had finished it. Guess I will need to do a rewatch sooner then I anticipated. Go back and re-read this whole thread along with each season as you watch it.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:14
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