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awesmoe posted:
That's a really good point. Johnny Joestar posted:i'm still wrapping my head around you not understanding the basics of legality when it comes to corporations and how it's not some magical world where everyone holds hands and sings about how the world can be a better place as long as we strive for it Is there a legal implication if I tell you where you can stick that ad hominem?
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Jun 23, 2020 23:23
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Centzon Totochtin posted:https://twitter.com/deathnekotifa/status/1275520159013203974?s=19 You guys missed this part: https://mobile.twitter.com/deathnekotifa/status/1275519606472404992
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Jun 23, 2020 23:25
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It’s important to be able to point to a policy and say, “this is why you’re banned from our events.” I think it’s equally as important to have visible policies in place as a clear signal that certain behaviors will not be tolerated, because relying on “common sense” to police public behavior does poo poo all.
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Jun 23, 2020 23:28
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Beef posted:Is there a legal implication if I tell you where you can stick that ad hominem? yo we apparently already exist in a failed state where many people are coming out about like a loving baker's dozen of pro dota-involved individuals being horrendous shitheads and apparently pulling strings all these years to face no consequences about it, is it really a surprise that people are going to get snippy about it when someone comes in and says 'hey why should there be something in place to say these things are bad' this isn't a scenario of trying to prevent cancer, the pro dota community already has it and needs it cut out before they can even remotely begin to put measures in place to keep it from coming back. so hey! i'm glad that other posters are apparently able to be nicer about this poo poo than i am, but i genuinely feel like everything has progressed past a point where i care about being civil.
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Jun 23, 2020 23:32
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To be fair I'm going to go ahead and believe old "No Tacos" on this one
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Jun 23, 2020 23:34
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NtotheTC posted:To be fair I'm going to go ahead and believe old "No Tacos" on this one
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Jun 23, 2020 23:36
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Johnny Joestar posted:yo we apparently already exist in a failed state where many people are coming out about like a loving baker's dozen of pro dota-involved individuals being horrendous shitheads and apparently pulling strings all these years to face no consequences about it, is it really a surprise that people are going to get snippy about it when someone comes in and says 'hey why should there be something in place to say these things are bad' Fair enough. My point was not about that there shouldn't be something like a CoC in place, but more about their effectiveness. I definitely understand the impulse to want to put _anything_ in place that helps. From my US corporate experience, I have not seen CoCs being an effective substitute for a critical mass of people with human decency, removing the support that kind of behavior. You're still asking the victim to go and report it to HR, which has the tendency to "start an investigation". The joke is that HR is litigation mitigation, and my fear is that CoCs end up being more effective for that purpose than to actually have any social justice impact. That was my impression, and there have been interesting points raised in this thread to counter that.
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Jun 23, 2020 23:50
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Like, actually read this: https://theleaddeveloper.com/code-of-conduct because it covers a lot of stuff that's vague "know it if you see it" stuff like "unwelcome sexual attention", "sustained disruption of discussion" and poo poo like that, which means you can actually report someone for being obviously a piece of poo poo and they can't hide behind "well there's no rule against TALKING to someone!" And yes, you have to codify this poo poo, because otherwise you can't ban someone for being a piece of poo poo, because they'll scream bloody murder about how they didn't do anything wrong edit: Beef posted:Fair enough. My point was not about that there shouldn't be something like a CoC in place, but more about their effectiveness. I definitely understand the impulse to want to put _anything_ in place that helps. Yeah, and I understand your concern, but CoCs also give people who have been the targets of poo poo, or people who have witnessed it, something to actually go on to call people out for it. that sentence was a loving disaster, i'm sorry more falafel please fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 23:55
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Beef posted:Fair enough. My point was not about that there shouldn't be something like a CoC in place, but more about their effectiveness. I definitely understand the impulse to want to put _anything_ in place that helps. you are right about this - the fundamental issue is the culture of the space in question. If dota tournament organizers actually, in fact, prioritize the experience of their male talent and players over the experience of female attendees, then nothing will change. CoCs require buy in from the whole organization - eg the people wearing the big "STAFF" lanyards need to be trained to behave appropriately when dealing with these issues. Not just expected to behave appropriately - trained. There's a thousand ways to sabotage or undermine any efforts to change, but that's the kind of thing that determines whether dota is worth supporting or not. if dota TOs want to change, a published code of conduct can support that.
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Jun 23, 2020 23:55
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Totally with you. wikipedia posted:The proof of effectiveness is when employees/members feel comfortable enough to voice concerns and believe that the organization will respond with appropriate action. My heart absolutely sank on the "plane on hold" reply that Llama got, which is where BTS absolutely failed miserably at any of this.
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Jun 24, 2020 00:06
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Beef posted:Fair enough. My point was not about that there shouldn't be something like a CoC in place, but more about their effectiveness. I definitely understand the impulse to want to put _anything_ in place that helps. I completely understand how it can feel that way, and nobody enjoys going through these trainings, but there is published data to support that codes of conduct do have a positive impact on ethnical behavior. Of course, the establishment of a code does not always determine how people act, there is that organizational cultural component that can influence patterns of behavior, but also the act of codifying values and demonstrating that you adhere to them can change the culture in the first place. This is especially true of smaller organizations (like what we would expect with BTS), where employees may assume that since 'we're all one big family!' that everyone is operating from the same ethical rulebook, and that may not (is clearly not) be the case.
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Jun 24, 2020 00:23
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GOOD TIMES ON METH posted:I sort of think Pro Dota should just go away forever after everything over the past few days. There isn't anything that is going to fix this short of Valve running everything and being aggressive about stamping all this poo poo out and I have zero trust in them to do that there is no fixing this. the community is too small, you're not going to have a bunch of quality players and casters spring out of nowhere to bring things back. there arent even any international tournaments to look forward to. shut it down, it's never coming back. and I think I'm okay with that.
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Jun 24, 2020 00:40
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zyori grandgrant and who else are now considered quality casters?
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Jun 24, 2020 00:44
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Reality Protester posted:there is no fixing this. the community is too small, you're not going to have a bunch of quality players and casters spring out of nowhere to bring things back. there arent even any international tournaments to look forward to. I mean they're not going to shut it down. It will just be a garbage place like it always has been, just a little more obvious about it now.
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Jun 24, 2020 01:07
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Reality Protester posted:there is no fixing this. the community is too small, you're not going to have a bunch of quality players and casters spring out of nowhere to bring things back. there arent even any international tournaments to look forward to. I think (rather, I hope) there's enough decent people left in the community who will want to salvage this. Obviously there first needs to be a massive purge of everyone (players, talent, orgs, valve) who has propagated or enabled this festering poo poo culture for any hope of fixing this, which may be impossible. I accept that the community may never recover from this and hoping for a better dota scene could just be wishful thinking...but IMO it's worth a try.
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Jun 24, 2020 01:14
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I feel like Slacks getting all worked up might have reached some people that otherwise wouldn't have cared...
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Jun 24, 2020 01:15
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As far as I know, the Chinese and Russian scenes haven't had any similar situations and put together they make up a vast majority of Dota's viewerbase Even if the ENG scene were to burn down, Dota as a whole wouldn't go anywhere, though it'd undeniably take a big blow in terms of viewership
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Jun 24, 2020 01:17
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NA dota at its lowest point 
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Jun 24, 2020 01:19
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a top Chinese team was just banned for life for match fixing. if you think shady poo poo isnt happening in other scenes, you're dreaming.
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Jun 24, 2020 01:22
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Beef posted:Totally with you. i mean that and the "yea he'll probably be fine :-) but be professional ok :-)" resposnes
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Jun 24, 2020 01:31
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There isn’t going to be a massive purge of talent, and the scene will be fine. Neither of these dudes is A-list, and Zyori isn’t even B-list. At his best, Grant is a good hype man with a lot of annoying quirks you try to overlook, like his endless array of weird hang-ups about a bunch of irrelevant players who can’t even reliably stay on Tier 2 NA squads anymore.
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Jun 24, 2020 01:35
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Reality Protester posted:a top Chinese team was just banned for life for match fixing. if you think shady poo poo isnt happening in other scenes, you're dreaming. Cool, when I say Iambic Pentameter posted:haven't had any similar situations I'm talking about sexual harassment cases like with what's happening in the english scene, thanks for conflating matchfixing with literal rape though
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Jun 24, 2020 01:36
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I'm not conflating anything. I'm saying bad poo poo is happening everywhere and if you're not hearing about it, it's not because it's not happening.
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Jun 24, 2020 01:40
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rjmccall posted:There isn’t going to be a massive purge of talent, and the scene will be fine. Neither of these dudes is A-list, and Zyori isn’t even B-list. At his best, Grant is a good hype man with a lot of annoying quirks you try to overlook, like his endless array of weird hang-ups about a bunch of irrelevant players who can’t even reliably stay on Tier 2 NA squads anymore. grant was on panel for ti how is that not a list?
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Jun 24, 2020 01:41
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Iambic Pentameter posted:As far as I know, the Chinese and Russian scenes haven't had any similar situations and put together they make up a vast majority of Dota's viewerbase i mean you GOTTA distinguish between situations and reported situations as far as "anyone" knew the english scene didnt have any similar situations last week
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Jun 24, 2020 01:44
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grant was probably the single biggest english language caster. he wasnt the best, of course, but thats not really relevant. he was incredibly popular, much more so than literally anybody else.
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Jun 24, 2020 01:47
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absolutely not?????
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Jun 24, 2020 01:54
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awesmoe posted:i mean you GOTTA distinguish between situations and reported situations Very good point We might start hearing similar stories from the other language scenes over the next few days, who knows
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Jun 24, 2020 01:56
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Reality Protester posted:I'm not conflating anything. I'm saying bad poo poo is happening everywhere and if you're not hearing about it, it's not because it's not happening. Is this a statement on the entirety of human civilization?
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Jun 24, 2020 02:22
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Sampatrick posted:grant was probably the single biggest english language caster. what the gently caress are you talking about lol
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Jun 24, 2020 03:10
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Gonna double down on laughing at "Grant is all that's holding together English language dota" Cut out everyone mentioned that might be legitimately complicit and you still have *checks notes* yeah ODPixel is still ok so far, we're fine. Set aside the fact that old boy dota has kept anyone new from even bothering to try to engage with this audience and I say the open space is welcome. At the risk of promoting white men, let's get our good clean boy PFlax back on camera. Slacks's shout out had me so proud.
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Jun 24, 2020 03:21
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Glory to Italia!
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Sampatrick posted:grant was probably the single biggest english language caster. he wasnt the best, of course, but thats not really relevant. he was incredibly popular, much more so than literally anybody else. lmfao
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Jun 24, 2020 03:27
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Thom and the Heads posted:what the gently caress are you talking about lol he was probably the single most popular english language caster. he didnt get as many high profile gigs as other casters but it is absolutely true that he was incredibly popular. he would literally get thousands of viewers doing nothing but casting random pubs, he got literally tens of thousands of viewers casting qualifiers on an unoffical stream. it would be insane to say that he wasn't as popular as he was.
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Jun 24, 2020 03:28
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im not saying grant was like good for the scene or w/e but its pretty loving insane to say that he wasnt as popular as he was
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Jun 24, 2020 03:29
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Sampatrick posted:he was probably the single most popular english language caster. he didnt get as many high profile gigs as other casters but it is absolutely true that he was incredibly popular. he would literally get thousands of viewers doing nothing but casting random pubs, he got literally tens of thousands of viewers casting qualifiers on an unoffical stream. it would be insane to say that he wasn't as popular as he was. If that's the qualifier to be the most popular caster then Bulldog is the biggest dota caster
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Jun 24, 2020 03:32
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Andrast posted:If that's the qualifier to be the bggest catcher then Bulldog is the biggest dota caster i mean literally yes bulldog was one of the most popular casters when he was casting more often
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Jun 24, 2020 03:33
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Sampatrick posted:he was probably the single most popular english language caster. he didnt get as many high profile gigs as other casters but it is absolutely true that he was incredibly popular. he would literally get thousands of viewers doing nothing but casting random pubs, he got literally tens of thousands of viewers casting qualifiers on an unoffical stream. it would be insane to say that he wasn't as popular as he was. youre kinda conflating caster and streamer here like he was fun and cool to watch just casting random quals or whatever, but I dont want him solocasting the ti grand final i mean sure i may have literally said i wanted him solocasting the ti grand final but i didnt mean it awesmoe fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Jun 24, 2020 |
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Jun 24, 2020 03:35
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awesmoe posted:youre kinda conflating caster and streamer here i mean, there is essentially no difference (at least in the case of grant). literally his whole thing was casting games, whether they be pubs or qualifiers or officials. he was personally more popular than any other caster, i really dont understand the argument that he wasnt.
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Jun 24, 2020 03:39
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The only part of pro dota that might have problems with grant loving off is B/C-tier NAdota
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Jun 24, 2020 03:43
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Andrast posted:The only part of pro dota that might have problems with grant loving off is B/C-tier NAdota ye i think we can agree on this. its why sammyboy posted his kinda dumb as poo poo twitlonger. but especially with the new league structure that will eventually be here, that hopefully shouldnt be a problem anymore.
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Jun 24, 2020 03:45
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