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Yeah I definitely did law the first couple of times I played games with the option I got into the series with Persona 3, so I didn’t realize the concept of what “law” stood for, I just thought oh right this will be the good ending right I did kind of enjoy the SMT4 Apocalypse twist where it’s just straight up law and chaos are bad endings and the choice is anarchy or chaos, but still without siding with either But in the end the anarchy ending is still the ending of gods
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Jun 28, 2020 11:07
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Rise is best girl
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Jun 28, 2020 11:36
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P3FeMC is best girl.
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Jun 28, 2020 11:41
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 PMush Perfect posted:P3FeMC is best girl. Let's compromise: Laura Bailey rules
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Jun 28, 2020 11:49
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the best girls are red haired kouhai's
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Jun 28, 2020 12:01
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voiced by a Laura, yes
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Jun 28, 2020 12:02
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Cleretic posted:My problem with Law in Strange Journey is actually that it makes a pretty alright case for itself, until you hit the point of no return where it takes a turn for the 'oh god no nobody is happy with this'. I actually like that all of strange journeys (original flavor) routes are a bad end, it's charming in a way I'm sure only appeals to a particular subset of player Redux fixing law and chaos to have reletively happy endings is better from a "making the player feel good at the end" perspective but I'm glad they just ended up making neutrals end explicitly "wow this sucks"
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Jun 28, 2020 12:16
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Arist posted:Let's compromise: Laura Bailey rules
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Jun 28, 2020 12:18
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Devil Survivor Overclocked handled both chaos and law pretty well. With chaos you have a choice to go either full fygm or a freedom fighter and law the biggest focus with the extra content was on mercy/redemption and how while it is difficult it is something that can happen.
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Jun 28, 2020 12:41
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Every game tends to get part of it right, but I think the general ideal writing should present the law and chaos routes as essentially being the best you can achieve with the tools you're given. You're told the world is done for, so try to do the best with what little is left. the neutral endings tend to be one of two things, or ideally both: the kicking the can down the road ending, and the ending where you realize that the tools you're given are fake and make your own. every game seems to either get law or chaos right, but rarely both at the same time. A lot of it boils down to your relationship with the npc, it's why SJ's chaos route was more tempting. love jimenez and bugaboo.
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Jun 28, 2020 12:43
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I'm still sad that P3 and P4 don't have rumor farms and instead have that facet of the universe built into the narrative for unlocking things. Also I really should finish both halves of P2 someday... someday, maybe.. probably? 
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Jun 28, 2020 12:50
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Jimenez was great.I never appreciated him in my first SJ run but when I played SJR after playing more SMT games I realized how well he was done.Same forZelenin who is very underrated. They are both way, way better than Walter or Jonathan or the SMT Reasons reps. They really tried to give the alignment reps a bit more personality and focus in SMTIV but they fumbled the ball something fierce and Jimenez and Zelenin only showing up periodically after hours of dungeon crawling were still way more compelling than Walt or Jon. Law is quite seductive. It promises peace, equality, stability. But the true best alignment game had one of its best characters point out the flaw in this:  Just because a lot of people want those things doesn't mean they are good or that you have the right to force them on everyone. Law is no different from Chaos except it hides its ugliness better. A lot of people are convinced - with good reason, I think - that the writers of SMT have either a Neutral bias or a anti-Law bias. They would sooner see the world drowned in blood than brainwashed into puppets. I didn't understand this way of thinking but I kinda do now. "I die free." Better to die Social Darwinist hellhole than to live as YHWH's plaything in the world's largest dollhouse, no mater how nice that dollhouse looks. And the superior option to both of those is Humanity gently caress Yeah, we can do everything if we just believe and stand on our own. SMT and Persona both love this theme. https://youtu.be/0FthCpYbNZw?t=629 "I fight for a world without bias." Merkabah: A world without bias... Is that not by its very nature a world without stability? There is no salvation in such a world -- only pain and difficulty. Gaston: But it does not end there. We are drawn to what lies beyond hardships. I'm fairly certain the fact Law promises a Thousand Year Kingdom is no coincidence. A reich that last a millennium. The 20th Century was called in a lecture I listened to a a century of "Utopia and Terror.". From the Nazis to Mao, it was a century built on the idea that with enough force and bodies, a perfect state was possible. We just had to give in and let it happen. SMT and Persona reject this. They are aggressively anti-Utopian. Law and even Chaos are presented as "easy" outs and escapes to that fabled utopia. But both roads are dead-ends. Conversely, if we stand on our own two feet, we are in for a lot of suffering and failure. But that suffering will be endured and that failure will lead to success and in the end will be a world better than either Law or Chaos can offer. But make no mistake about it, all those bad things I listed earlier will happen but Neutral's opinion is that they are worth it. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Jun 28, 2020 |
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Jun 28, 2020 14:03
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Cleretic posted:My problem with Law in Strange Journey is actually that it makes a pretty alright case for itself, until you hit the point of no return where it takes a turn for the 'oh god no nobody is happy with this'. I really like this aspect of Law in SMT because it's just like a real cult.
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Jun 28, 2020 14:21
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doing law in sj means siding against the cutest demon though
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Jun 28, 2020 14:23
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Since we talked about it a bit earlier, and also since I'm OP as gently caress, I decided to try out using the AI in persona 4 for some more serious battles. and friends, let me tell you, it is not good. I can't get any party member to use any status skills at all, on any AI setting. the only things they will use are direct damage, and healing skills in case they're set to heal/support. they *really* didn't put a lot of effort into these scripts. I can put kanji on heal/support all i want but all it does is make him use his primal force less.
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Jun 28, 2020 15:08
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Amppelix posted:Since we talked about it a bit earlier, and also since I'm OP as gently caress, I decided to try out using the AI in persona 4 for some more serious battles. and friends, let me tell you, it is not good. I can't get any party member to use any status skills at all, on any AI setting. the only things they will use are direct damage, and healing skills in case they're set to heal/support. they *really* didn't put a lot of effort into these scripts. I can put kanji on heal/support all i want but all it does is make him use his primal force less. Yep, it's the same for P3P and P5. They totally removed the extensive AI options of FES and just left in this barebones poo poo which is more of a hindrance than anything. i don't even know why they bothered keeping it.
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Jun 28, 2020 15:10
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mandatory lesbian posted:I actually like that all of strange journeys (original flavor) routes are a bad end, it's charming in a way I'm sure only appeals to a particular subset of player One of my big complaints about SMT is that neutral endings tend to be a lot of just-so moralism and it's always nice to see one that actually admits just how hosed up humanity is.
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Jun 28, 2020 15:17
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e: misread
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Jun 28, 2020 15:30
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I somehow forgot until just now that P3 did not let you control party members at all
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Jun 28, 2020 15:31
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NikkolasKing posted:Yep, it's the same for P3P and P5. They totally removed the extensive AI options of FES and just left in this barebones poo poo which is more of a hindrance than anything.
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Jun 28, 2020 15:58
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GimmickMan posted:I really like this aspect of Law in SMT because it's just like a real cult. Honestly, yeah, I get that and I respect that. But I'm not sure how well that works in contrast with how Chaos and Neutral were written in that game, which had much higher levels of 'what the gently caress is going on'. Maybe it's just because it was my first mainline Megaten, so the first time I actually got the Law/Neutral/Chaos choices.
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Jun 28, 2020 15:59
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I think P3 has the tightest design of any of the "current generation" of Persona games. The fact that you can't control your party members does a lot to make them feel like different people, and fits in with them sometimes being too busy to go to Tartarus or even them having their own character arcs independent of the protagonist. I also found the Tired status much more effective than SP limits at connecting dungeon diving with the larger time management system. I think the day-to-day pacing makes more sense, too; the cavalcade of emergency deadlines always felt a little weird in 4 and 5, whereas 3 just says "plot happens every full moon; you probably want to keep up with Tartarus when you're free but you don't completely have to." It makes the dungeon into just another task you have to deal with, no different from keeping up with Social Links you like or trying to increase your stats. I can see why they changed some of these mechanics. It's frustrating watching Mitsuru try to charm the boss. And it sucks to get held up by a plot boss and have to reload an earlier save to grind in Tartarus. But I do think something was lost in the transition.
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Jun 28, 2020 16:25
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Cleretic posted:Honestly, yeah, I get that and I respect that. But I'm not sure how well that works in contrast with how Chaos and Neutral were written in that game, which had much higher levels of 'what the gently caress is going on'. I think it works as a contrast to neutral because you're offered an easy solution to the problem that is the Schwartzwelt in Law while acknowledging that Neutral is not a "permanent" solution. Both paths tell a story about how humanity can choose to face its problems and it's up to you to decide whether law is a happy end/dystopia end or if neutral is hopeless/life-affirming, at least in the original. Chaos though... Yeah. Often chaos is just the most boring path of the bunch. Like it's just the same thing as neutral (kill everyone who disagrees with you, forever) except it just ends. There's nothing interesting going on there. It is just assholes backstabbing assholes forever. The most interesting take on Chaos in a mainline game was Nocturne TDE in which you destroy creation just to wage war against YHVH. i'm adding spoilers for a 20 year old game just in case, i guess GimmickMan fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Jun 28, 2020 |
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Jun 28, 2020 17:16
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GimmickMan posted:The most interesting take on Chaos in a mainline game was Nocturne TDE in which you destroy creation just to wage war against YHVH.
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Jun 28, 2020 17:29
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Zvahl posted:doing law in sj means siding against the cutest demon though Are you trying to troll us, Sir?
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Jun 28, 2020 17:39
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GimmickMan posted:I think it works as a contrast to neutral because you're offered an easy solution to the problem that is the Schwartzwelt in Law while acknowledging that Neutral is not a "permanent" solution. Both paths tell a story about how humanity can choose to face its problems and it's up to you to decide whether law is a happy end/dystopia end or if neutral is hopeless/life-affirming, at least in the original. TDE is best represented by what you learn of Hijiri. He's just some poor guy who spited YHWH and so is resurrected to die over and over again for eternity.He's only one person/soul but he embodies the injustice of the system. Dagda's route in Apocalypse is very similar. Basically, YHWH built and rigged the entire universe/multiverse so the only real solution is to tear the whole thing down. Also you have no reason to care about anyone in Nocturne except Lucifer and Ms. Takao, your teacher. They're the only people who are ever nice to you. PMush Perfect posted:And that game already has a reason that's supposed to be Chaos. It's a bit like DeSu 2: which is Chaos, Yamato or Anguished One?
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Jun 28, 2020 17:39
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I do think it's super funny that Redux made it so Law and Chaos endings were a little less horrible (supposedly? Like I said, I haven't done Law in SJ yet) but when it came to Neutral it just doubled down. I feel like the SJ writer is annoyed at how often Neutral is the 'easy good guy' option in SMT, when it should actually be a complicated decision process. As much as SMT actually makes an attempt at having real philosophical and ethical choices in the alignments/reasons/whatever, it usually just has a "this is the path with most content where things end up pretty okay" thing going on. On the other hand, going for the Neutral path in SMT4 is real good about making the pain of going your own way visible by forcing you to fill that stupid cup, so who knows? 
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Jun 28, 2020 17:41
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Is the Neutral path really neutral? Most of the time it's a "reject both sides and force the previous status quo back" option. I think a true neutral path is one that tries to work with both law and chaos sides, negotiating between them. Of course you'd probably have to take down the extremists on either side, but ultimately you're trying to work together.
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Jun 28, 2020 18:45
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Neutral can be a very broad spectrum from compromising with extremes to rejecting them outright.
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Jun 28, 2020 18:57
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Mraagvpeine posted:Is the Neutral path really neutral? Most of the time it's a "reject both sides and force the previous status quo back" option. I think a true neutral path is one that tries to work with both law and chaos sides, negotiating between them. Of course you'd probably have to take down the extremists on either side, but ultimately you're trying to work together. Well any sort of Pro-Human option is Pro-Neutral because Humans are by default Neutral which is to say we have the capacity for both Law and Chaos. Demons are shaped by our perceptions. We can kill YHWH but he'll come back. We can strike down Lucifer but he'll reform. Because human beings yearn for both order and freedom and those yearnings will invariably resurrect embodiments of those yearnings. SMT and Persona both talk about how all the supernatural evil of the world is basically manifest by human desires. From Nyarly to Yaldy, they were just responding to/created from what we wanted. Same for SMT Demons. Of course you can easily do an Evil Neutral route. Take Stephen who is just "as long as humans take down demons, I don't care if the human doing it is a genocidal lunatic." I still want SMTV to be some sort of evil corporation who have captured and tortured demons for Reasons, like Jack's Squad from SJ but made into main antagonist rule. It be something different. EDIT: I forgot to mention that one of the most interesting things SMTIV did was have Akira in Law Utopia yearn for Chaos and Akira in Chaos Utopia yearn for Law. It really sums up the point that humans just can't be happy in either setting because we are creatures of a dual nature. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Jun 28, 2020 |
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Jun 28, 2020 19:01
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P5R Update: I feel like you get Character stats up way faster than in the base game and also its way easier to make sure you don't have those wasted hang outs with confidants. The will seed upgrade accessory from the Bank is insanely good and I don't think they balanced around Egg Baby's mementos shifting. Just clearing mementos and getting all his stamps has put me at on level for the miniboss demons in the next relative dungeon from me just pouring them all into Items and EXP up. That plus the will seeds refreshing SP when you find them and all the baton pass bonuses I've been able to clear the dungeons no problem at all with minimum days used.
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Jun 29, 2020 00:36
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you would be correct in that feeling:  not knowing how many more opportunities they added to increase stats this feels really excessive to me actually.
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Jun 29, 2020 00:56
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Just started the Tomb and 2 Shot the First Mini Boss with some techincal hits. I haven't even gotten the stuff to boost technical damage either. They unbalanced this whole game for the remake. Can't wait to get all of the Boat done in a single day...
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Jun 29, 2020 01:05
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In an ideal world, and again I think different games tend to hit this pretty well, Law and Chaos are both absolutely reasonable reactions to discovering that magic and demons and angels are real. They're survival methods without long-term ideology. I havent gotten too far into redux, but original sj is a good example Chaos is about realizing that all that power exists, and that you're one of the weakest things on the totem pole, cosmically, and just arming up. You end up in the terrible might makes right world because that's what already exists. demons will just straight up eat you, so get strong enough that they can't. it's just not a philosophy that really scales in any way. Law is about finding safety where it exists. Demons will straight up eat you, and everyone you know can't get strong enough to stop them, so accept the offer to be safe in the walls of heaven. I actually think Zelenin gets a bad rap in this regard. She's a real rear end in a top hat about bugaboo, sure, but when you remember that her experience in the Schwartzwelt didn't start with her getting the demon software, but instead getting jailed and watching everyone get tortured to death, you can sort of understand why she's more inclined to the solution that seems to be about safety over personal power. It's why I've always really liked the games that at least TRY to present the two routes as reasonable, even if they're ultimately flawed and you shouldn't pick them.
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Jun 29, 2020 01:16
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sandnavyguy posted:Dug up my vita and I’m thinking of doing a blind play through of both P2s, I’m excited to see what led to P4 probably my favorite goat. Once I get the ability to take screen shots I’ll get started, but any hard and fast tips? I got some on the discord but any bit helps cause I’ve heard it gets kind of esoteric in the mechanics? Or am I crazy? * Always keep a Pixie and Poltergeist in your Persona stock in the Velvet Room. A Rank 8 Pixie has 99 Luck and equipping it to your main character helps increase your odds of winning in the casino or in the magazine lottery. Having a Poltergeist removes the chance of getting a Persona Summoning Accident, since getting one changes the Persona you were aiming for into a Poltergeist. * Always aim to end a battle with a fusion spell for a chance of getting a Persona Mutation. The way this mechanic works is that one of the participants of the fusion spell has a chance of getting one of the following bonuses: - The equipped Persona's Rank goes up by 2 (really useful to get when you're on Rank 6) - The Persona unlocks one skill/spell - The Persona unlocks their hidden ability (these things only trigger when you're on low health) - The Persona can change into a brand-new Persona from the Rod, Sword, Cup and Pentacle Arcana. (You'll need to go to the Velvet Room and get Igor to change them) - The Persona gets a +1 to all stats (really useful to keep low-level Persona competitive) * When a Persona gets to Rank 8, you can return them to Igor to get items. Certain Persona give out accessories called [Stat] Source. If you have one equipped, a character gets +1 to that stat when they level up. * A fast way to rank up a Persona is to summon them while using the Dia Skill Card (you can either get them from asking contracted Pixies for cards, or buy a copy from the Time Count in Eternal Punishment). Now turn off animations and get into a random battle. Have a character keep using Dia while the others defend. Once a character is out of SP, switch that Persona to a different character and repeat the process until everyone's out of SP. Once everyone's tapped out, go back to the world map and use one of the healing locations to restore your SP since they're really cheap. Also, the higher your character's level is in relation to the Persona's level, the more rank EXP you get. * Get Hel as soon as you can. She's a Death Persona, so either Eikichi (Innocent Sin) or Baofu (Eternal Punishment) are highly compatible with her. Hel voids Expel and Death, and resists Nerve and Mind, while being weak to none. Hel's main strength is that they're a fusion spell Swiss Army Knife who gets access to the following elements: Death, Earth, Nuclear, Ice, Force, Fire and Water. With the Mutation mechanic, you'll be able to keep Hel's stats on par with later Persona and use her for the entire game. * Using the Mutation mechanic, try to get a Persona to Mutate into Hotei. His main draw is an easy access to Estoma, which outright removes encounters with enemy groups that are lower level than your party. * If you can set up a save state, the Bingo in the Casino is the fastest way to earn money. First, make a save state before the game starts, and then max bet on all 4 cards. If you don't get a bingo, load your state. You then get access to a bonus game, so make a save state here. Now pick a color (red, blue, green) that you think will appear and then the game randomly spins for one. If you got the right color, your winnings increase (and the less colors there are in the pool, the higher the payout is). You lose everything if you didn't pick the right color, so load your state and try again. With this method, you can easily get 999,999 coins that will last you the entire game. With maxed out coins, get 99 Disguise Goods; you can either use it to reduce encounter rate in dungeons or sell it for tons of cash. * There are three magazines you can buy from the item store, and you'll eventually be able to spread rumors about them (picking the option that lets you win armor or accessories are the best option). Before you buy magazines, have your main character equip Pixie and luck-increasing armor + food, and then makes two saves. The way this works is that as soon as you buy a magazine, the game's RNG immediately decides whether you won or not. When you submit the magazines to Tamaki, fight ten random battles and then save on the second save you just made. Go to either Lisa's house (Innocent Sin) or Maya's office (Eternal Punishment) and check if you won something. If you didn't win a prize, reload your first save and buy magazines again. If you did win but the prize isn't the one you wanted, reload your second save and check again.
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Jun 29, 2020 01:32
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Varinn posted:In an ideal world, and again I think different games tend to hit this pretty well, Law and Chaos are both absolutely reasonable reactions to discovering that magic and demons and angels are real. They're survival methods without long-term ideology. I havent gotten too far into redux, but original sj is a good example SJ Chaos has a few interesting things about it that sets it apart from other depictions of Chaos: 1. It's led by Mem Aleph, the Mothers and Tyrants, not Lucifer. These are the gods humanity worshiped before YHVH said gently caress you I'm the only one who gets worship. The current form of these figures is all down to how humans have come to perceive them thanks to YHVH's rule. 2. Related to 1, Humanity started all of this. The Schwarzwelt is just trying to stop what humans are doing to the planet. And in the Neutral Ending, it confirms humans will learn nothing and it will come again. Also I've never understood how Mem Aleph created humans and demons existed before humans but human perception makes demons... I guess it's Magic so it doesn't have to make logical sense. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Jun 29, 2020 |
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Jun 29, 2020 01:50
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nrook posted:I can see why they changed some of these mechanics. It's frustrating watching Mitsuru try to charm the boss. If you analyzed the boss (even if it displays no data) and Mitsuru tries to charm it, it means it CAN be charmed  The thing that irks me is they keep using low level recovery items even at the end of the game when they're long outdated (although I like that they have their own item pool and even replace their equipment sometimes).
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Jun 29, 2020 10:31
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Law and Chaos are reasonable options (wanting stability/a society on, usually, a post-apocalyptic world or freedom/peace with the demons respectively) but the leading figures that represent both sides are the main problem why (usually canonically) the main hero rejects them. It's pretty notable since the New Law and Chaos endings in Strange Journey Redux results in the Law and Chaos Hero going against the Mem Aleph and Mastema to make a better ending.
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Jun 29, 2020 12:34
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Pyro Jack posted:Law and Chaos are reasonable options (wanting stability/a society on, usually, a post-apocalyptic world or freedom/peace with the demons respectively) but the leading figures that represent both sides are the main problem why (usually canonically) the main hero rejects them. It's pretty notable since the New Law and Chaos endings in Strange Journey Redux results in the Law and Chaos Hero going against the Mem Aleph and Mastema to make a better ending. The thing with law and chaos routes is each of them ramps up to be like *wildly* beyond the scope of what you'd consider desirable most of the time. Law route eventually culminates in the annihilation of free will, Chaos route is some wild law of the jungle poo poo where humans just kind of become part of the demonic hierarchy of barbarism. I don't think the player is meant to be happy with either of those; Neutral ending is usually the "good" end, even if it's not the canon one.
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Jun 29, 2020 13:23
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we laugh but SMT is real https://twitter.com/yusai00/status/1277383032236728322
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Jun 29, 2020 13:33
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