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Johnny Joestar
Oct 21, 2010

Don't shoot him?

...
...



some of the poo poo with the seanchan feels like jordan just wanted to make them shocking to whatever degree and i'm not sure if it actually helped things

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rndmnmbr
Jul 3, 2012

It was an issue left to be addressed in the mat and the seanchan sequel series, although exactly how an empire that bases it's entire power structure on enslaving channelers gets over its slavery addiction is a mystery.

Also, I reiterate, having the slave owning faction be the one that speaks with a southern drawl is either an intentional piece of brilliance or some very unfortunate implications.

Ika
Dec 30, 2004
Pure insanity

silvergoose posted:

Mat in tar valon was several top notch scenes: him inhaling food without noticing, that scene with Siuan, quarterstaff fight, gambling fever, chicken with Thom.

Man now I want to re-read that, mat was so awesome in tar valon.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

📈📊🍪😋



Prairie Bus posted:

I haven’t reached it yet on the re-read, but Aviendha’s second trip to Rhuidean was such a bummer re: the Seanchan. I’d guess Jordan believed that incremental change would be necessary to move the Seanchan on the issue and that starting a war with them would just cause them to entrench further.

Fuckin succdragons

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound
My guess is that Jordan wanted the world to still be obviously, deeply flawed post-series. Winning the Last Battle doesn't automatically usher in a utopia.

rndmnmbr
Jul 3, 2012

Wait. I just got what Jordan was going for. An empire, slave-owning, racially diverse but led by a powerful black family. Seanchan is pre-civil war United States, with the big twist being it led by black slave-owners. So yes, some very unfortunate implications there.

This does place Mat in the role of General Sherman, and I am actually pretty okay with that.

Prairie Bus
Sep 22, 2006




Data Graham posted:

Fuckin succdragons

He (or Sanderson) literally had Egwene form a coalition government with an official from Elaida’s government! Biden chooses Huckabee-Sanders as VP, but only after she spends a couple weeks spanking him.

Prairie Bus
Sep 22, 2006




Hieronymous Alloy posted:

My guess is that Jordan wanted the world to still be obviously, deeply flawed post-series. Winning the Last Battle doesn't automatically usher in a utopia.

This is right on the money for me as well. People making decisions on their flawed understandings of the world and ingrained biases is a core principle in WoT. Hell, look at how long it took Mat to come around on trusting Aes Sedai. (did he ever?)

Johnny Joestar
Oct 21, 2010

Don't shoot him?

...
...



Prairie Bus posted:

He (or Sanderson) literally had Egwene form a coalition government with an official from Elaida’s government! Biden chooses Huckabee-Sanders as VP, but only after she spends a couple weeks spanking him.

speaking of that, i'm coming up to the end of crossroads of twilight

how long does egwene stay trapped in the tower. it's legit like my least favorite part of the series because i don't want to read about jordan's spanking fetish. again.

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008




It should have been Mat that would start them towards ending slavery, but
He just kinda ignores it.

Gnoman
Feb 12, 2014

Come, all you fair and tender maids
Who flourish in your pri-ime
Beware, take care, keep your garden fair
Let Gnoman steal your thy-y-me
Le-et Gnoman steal your thyme




Do we ever find out who started the anti-Morgase sentiment in Eye Of The World? It very strongly feels like the work of another House, but I don't remember if they ever said which one.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010
willfully illiterate, aggressively miserable sourpuss whose sole raison d’etre is to put other people down for liking the wrong things

Gnoman posted:

Do we ever find out who started the anti-Morgase sentiment in Eye Of The World? It very strongly feels like the work of another House, but I don't remember if they ever said which one.

Some of it is the work of Pedron Niall working with some of the houses, but by the time we get a real look into Andor politics that stuff is really old news and I don't think we get a great look.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





Gnoman posted:

Do we ever find out who started the anti-Morgase sentiment in Eye Of The World? It very strongly feels like the work of another House, but I don't remember if they ever said which one.

No, but it fit the general theme of the world being in decay.

Invalid Validation posted:

It should have been Mat that would start them towards ending slavery, but
He just kinda ignores it.

The seeds were laid with Hawkwing going to have a word with Tuon, and I can't really see Mat standing for it long term. I can understand him putting concerns to one side for the end of the world, though.

rndmnmbr
Jul 3, 2012

Invalid Validation posted:

It should have been Mat that would start them towards ending slavery, but
He just kinda ignores it.

He kind of does, by telling Seta and Bethamin to find a way to fix it without destroying the empire when they left for the White Tower in ToM. But I don't think Jordan had a solid answer for how to fix it, so he and Sanderson wrote around it.

Johnny Joestar
Oct 21, 2010

Don't shoot him?

...
...



ideally we absolutely would have gotten those offshoot books with mat and tuon but, well, rip

Prairie Bus
Sep 22, 2006




Johnny Joestar posted:

speaking of that, i'm coming up to the end of crossroads of twilight

how long does egwene stay trapped in the tower. it's legit like my least favorite part of the series because i don't want to read about jordan's spanking fetish. again.

I just looked and it’s not great. There’s not much spanking in KoD, Egwene is in the prologue and one other chapter. There’s a lot of it in TGS, and worse, Gawyn returns. She escapes the Tower near the end of the book, looks like Chapter 41.

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008




Yea probably, ending slavery written by 2 very white old guys might have been a difficult task.

Johnny Joestar
Oct 21, 2010

Don't shoot him?

...
...



Prairie Bus posted:

I just looked and it’s not great. There’s not much spanking in KoD, Egwene is in the prologue and one other chapter. There’s a lot of it in TGS, and worse, Gawyn returns. She escapes the Tower near the end of the book, looks like Chapter 41.

well, gently caress

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!





TGS is awesome and Egwene actually does a lot of cool stuff in it.

Prairie Bus
Sep 22, 2006




ConfusedUs posted:

TGS is awesome and Egwene actually does a lot of cool stuff in it.

Good to know. I skipped one or two Faile chapters in KoD, but I can’t skip that many chapters in TGS and justify the cost

Drone Jett
Feb 21, 2017

by Fluffdaddy
College Slice

Invalid Validation posted:

Yea probably, ending slavery written by 2 very white old guys might have been a difficult task.

Lincoln and his cabinet weren’t that much younger, though.

Also Sanderson isn’t old at all.

GlassEye-Boy
Jul 12, 2001

Gnoman posted:

Do we ever find out who started the anti-Morgase sentiment in Eye Of The World? It very strongly feels like the work of another House, but I don't remember if they ever said which one.

I thought it was implied to be Rhavin. He was able to take advantage of the situation to get into Morgases good side and he had people setup already to fill the power vacuum after Gareth Bryne and the other lords left. The remaining loyal guards also kept referring to themselves as the queens men and to Rahvins faction in the same way that the anti Morgase faction were referred to, ie loyal to the crown and not the queen.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





Rahvin wasn't out at that point though. Aginor and Balthamel mention they were released first, and then the rest start to show up from book 2 onwards.

uguu
Mar 9, 2014

Maybe a bit off the dark one touching the world, a bit off winter hanging on much too long, perhaps added tot some out of book events.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice
AFAIK Rahvin wasn't the one who started the events, but he showed up to pledge support to Morgase to put an end to the events.

Gnoman
Feb 12, 2014

Come, all you fair and tender maids
Who flourish in your pri-ime
Beware, take care, keep your garden fair
Let Gnoman steal your thy-y-me
Le-et Gnoman steal your thyme




GlassEye-Boy posted:

The remaining loyal guards also kept referring to themselves as the queens men and to Rahvins faction in the same way that the anti Morgase faction were referred to, ie loyal to the crown and not the queen.


That's pretty much inevitable in such situations, unless you want to openly proclaim treason.


I was just wondering if and how it tied into the later Elayne plot. My assumption would be that a rival House (probably Marne under Arymilla) was capitalizing on the lovely situation to weaken and eventually depose her rival for the crown, but I wasn't sure if this was ever stated outright. As mentioned by others, Rahvin was probably still in the Bore at the time.


On a reread, incidentally, I'm really glad we got the "audience" between Rand and Morgase there. Without it, we don't see her until Rahvin is Wormtounging her, so we would never see Good Queen Morgase in her prime.

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS




Yeah that scene is really good, introduces Elaida and Bryne and Tallanvor, sets up the almost mirror scene with Mat...

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?
We were talking a while ago about favorite moments and I mentioned Mat with the lemon, but this one is really good:

quote:

It was an effort not to clench his fists. “I was born in Emond’s Field,” he said stiffly. “My mother was an outlander; that’s where my eyes come from. My father is Tam al’Thor, a shepherd and farmer, as I am.”

Elaida nodded slowly, never taking her eyes from his face. He met her gaze with a levelness that belied the sour feeling in his stomach. He saw her note the steadiness of his look. Still meeting him eye to eye, she moved her hand slowly toward him again. He resolved not to flinch this time.

It was his sword she touched, not him, her hand closing around the hilt at the very top. Her fingers tightened and her eyes opened wide with surprise. “A shepherd from the Two Rivers,” she said softly, a whisper meant to be heard by all, “with a heron-mark sword.”

Those last few words acted on the chamber as if she had announced the Dark One. Leather and metal creaked behind Rand, boots scuffling on the marble tiles. From the corner of his eye he could see Tallanvor and another of the guardsmen backing away from him to gain room, hands on their swords, prepared to draw and, from their faces, prepared to die. In two quick strides Gareth Bryne was at the front of the dais, between Rand and the Queen. Even Gawyn put himself in front of Elayne, a worried look on his face and a hand on his dagger. Elayne herself looked at him as if she were seeing him for the first time. Morgase did not change expression, but her hands tightened on the gilded arms of her throne.

Prairie Bus
Sep 22, 2006




Elayne's quest for the throne might've gone better with a different enemy. I think there's only one chapter (or even portion of a chapter) with Arymilla, and she's not especially interesting.That scene is shared with another character whose previous role had been to tell Rand he could kiss Elayne without feeling gross. Maybe she's conceited, maybe she's secretly deft, but it just doesn't matter that much. The camera doesn't care about her, so why should we?

It might have been more interesting if Jordan had given the role of trouble maker to the red sister from the Tower. Or just handled the Black Ajah plot better so that Elayne came out as a hero rather than a dope who got 500+ soldiers killed.

e:

CharlesThunder posted:

i forgot how good book two is. i almost skipped it because I was so excited to get to three. setting up the different ajahs, introducing the politics and politicking that are present throughout the series, the detailed descriptions of saidar and saidin, so many characters the world seems huge and strange things like the traveling stones make it seen like anything can happen. it's heavy on world building but Jordan is drat talented at showing rather than telling .

Books 2-5 are some of the best writing in the series. Cairhein's slow implosion in Book 2 was fun as heck.

Prairie Bus fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Jun 30, 2020

Ghislaine of YOSPOS
Apr 19, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!
i forgot how good book two is. i almost skipped it because I was so excited to get to three. setting up the different ajahs, introducing the politics and politicking that are present throughout the series, the detailed descriptions of saidar and saidin, so many characters the world seems huge and strange things like the traveling stones make it seen like anything can happen. it's heavy on world building but Jordan is drat talented at showing rather than telling .

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE
I know book 9 isn't generally thought to be that good apart from the ending, but there are some chapters that are perhaps underrated. Like the two chapters we see from the POV of the Sea Folk Windfinder. Where they ride to Far Madding, and we see a cool outside look at Cadsuane's party, and thus at Aes Sedai in general. I really like the internal monologue along the lines of "the Aes Sedai seem to rank themselves by strength in the power, how crazy is that?". And when she gets described the function of the Guardian, replicating an Ogier stedding, and Shalon wondering why the Aes Sedai would believe in fairy tales of people "five spans tall who sang to trees".

What I find most interesting is how Shalon reacts once they're inside the Guardian's field of effect. She's of course horrified at first, but vows to control her fear. But then they're traveling through Far Madding, encountering customs and people unfamiliar to Shalon, and she tries to take it all in. But every now and then, there's the random thought of how "the Light was gone". There's this great quote:

Shalon posted:

Tall towers flanked the city's iron-strapped gates - the Caemlyn Gate was the name Sarene gave - where guards with the golden sword on their shoulders bowed their heads to the women and cast suspicious eyes on the men. The street beyond...

Trying to be observant was no use. The street was wide and straight, full of people and cards, lined with stone buildings two or three stories high, and it all seemed like a blur. The Source was gone! She knew it would come back when she left this place, and Light, she wanted to leave now. But how long before she could? The Coramoor might be in this city, and Harine meant to make herself fast to the Coramoor, perhaps because of who he was, perhaps because she thought he would help her rise to Mistress of the Ship. Until Harine left, until Cadsuane freed them from the agreement, Shalon was anchored here. Here, where there was no True Source.

Sarene talked incessantly, yet Shalon barely heard her. They crossed a large square with a huge statue of a woman in the center, but Shalon caught only her name, Einion Avharin, though she knew Sarene was telling her why the woman was famous in Far Madding, and why her statue was pointing toward the Caemlyn Gate. A row of leafless trees divided the street beyond the square. Sedan chairs and coaches and men in square-scaled armor threaded through the crowds, but they registered only on her eyes. Trembling, she huddled in on herself. The city vanished. Time vanished. Everything vanished except her fear that she would never feel the Source again. She had never before realized what comfort she had taken in it's unseen presence. It had always been there, promising joy beyond knowing, life so rich that colors paled when the Power was gone from her. And now the Source itself was gone. Gone. That was all she was aware of, all she could be aware of. It was gone.

This sounds a bit like an addiction to me. In any case, it's a pretty cool description of how it feels to be cut off from the True Source. Suddenly it makes sense that the men who retreated into the stedding in the Breaking didn't remain there. They simply couldn't endure it, it's that bad. Like an addict trying to quit?

Also, I think this might have been and inspiration for Brandon Sanderson. Stormlight Archive spoilers: The way Shalon's terror at the source being gone plops at every now and again in her inner monologue reminds me a bit of Shallan's tick. I didn't realize it at first reading, but every time Shallan might remember the time she used Pattarn as a shardblade to kill her mother, there's a single line of three dots in the text, like so:

...

and then Shallan changes the topic or thinks of something else entirely. And now that I'm writing about it, Shallan and Shalon are also very similar names.

bloom
Feb 25, 2017

by sebmojo

Vavrek posted:

We were talking a while ago about favorite moments and I mentioned Mat with the lemon, but this one is really good:

That was a great way to show that a blademaster is A Big Deal. Kinda like trollocs and myrddraal being a threat it's one of those things that got lost when fighting became focused mostly on channeling and large scale battles.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





bloom posted:

That was a great way to show that a blademaster is A Big Deal. Kinda like trollocs and myrddraal being a threat it's one of those things that got lost when fighting became focused mostly on channeling and large scale battles.

Absolutely, and in Bryne's place, you can only assume that this dude is an assassin. And one so good that he doesn't even bother trying to hide it beyond the flimsiest of stories.

Torrannor posted:

I know book 9 isn't generally thought to be that good apart from the ending, but there are some chapters that are perhaps underrated. Like the two chapters we see from the POV of the Sea Folk Windfinder. Where they ride to Far Madding, and we see a cool outside look at Cadsuane's party, and thus at Aes Sedai in general. I really like the internal monologue along the lines of "the Aes Sedai seem to rank themselves by strength in the power, how crazy is that?". And when she gets described the function of the Guardian, replicating an Ogier stedding, and Shalon wondering why the Aes Sedai would believe in fairy tales of people "five spans tall who sang to trees".

What I find most interesting is how Shalon reacts once they're inside the Guardian's field of effect. She's of course horrified at first, but vows to control her fear. But then they're traveling through Far Madding, encountering customs and people unfamiliar to Shalon, and she tries to take it all in. But every now and then, there's the random thought of how "the Light was gone". There's this great quote:


I really like how she thinks of it as being the Light - it's a great little offhand way of showing that not everyone looks at the Power as something to fear.


It's similar to at the end of the Last Battle, when Logain saves the villagers they say they will bring their children to be tested for the talent. That even touches Logain's cold, dead heart :3:

Comrade Blyatlov fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Jun 30, 2020

Colonel Cool
Dec 24, 2006

It suddenly occurs to me that male channelers are going to be a big problem for the Seanchan in the future. They presumably don't have a means of controlling them, which means even if they stick to killing them then other nations are going to have an advantage over them when they get their poo poo sorted out and start training large numbers of men to channel.

Prairie Bus
Sep 22, 2006




Colonel Cool posted:

It suddenly occurs to me that male channelers are going to be a big problem for the Seanchan in the future. They presumably don't have a means of controlling them, which means even if they stick to killing them then other nations are going to have an advantage over them when they get their poo poo sorted out and start training large numbers of men to channel.

Forkroot affects both men and women, so I’d assume they’d start dosing every man in their domain and then summarily execute any man who reacted to it

bloom
Feb 25, 2017

by sebmojo

Prairie Bus posted:

Forkroot affects both men and women, so I’d assume they’d start dosing every man in their domain and then summarily execute any man who reacted to it

That would still leave them without a force of trained male channelers, which other nations would presumably get once they got over the taboo of men channeling.

Johnny Joestar
Oct 21, 2010

Don't shoot him?

...
...



given how strong things are when both sides of the power are used together, the seanchan would be at a marked disadvantage if they're not able to strongarm saidan users into their service. having saidar users throw fireballs or blow things up like some sort of untrained child whipping around a sword can only take you so far compared to poo poo like a joined circle bolstered by both halves of the power or things along the lines of rand and nynaeve completely obliterating shadar logoth in like a 3 mile radius to cleanse saidan

it's a shame we'll never get those followup books, but i feel like the seanchan would be fighting a losing battle over time if the 'mainland' took the fight to them with the strength they end up having by the end of it.

Mat Cauthon
Jan 2, 2006

The more tragic things get,
the more I feel like laughing.



If Tuon is a latent channeler who could be trained to improve her ability and Mat had multiple sisters who were sent to the Tower on the strength of their ability it's probably a safe bet to assume that at least some of any children they have will be channelers and there's no way in hell Mat would let anyone shackle his kids.

So you have a situation where the defacto Seanchan ruler and her consort, the legendary general who just outmaneuvered the Shadow to win the Last Battle, oppose one of the pillars holding up the empire. Leaving things open ended was definitely meant to show that the world is not perfect even with the Shadow vanquished but there's no way that conflict doesn't end with enslaving channelers going away, at least in the Westlands.

How that port it over to the fractured, destabilized Seanchan homeland would be interesting to read about.

Mat Cauthon fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Jun 30, 2020

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008




I don’t think the books ever say but is the reason they enslave channelers to begin with because one of the forsaken pushed them into it? I don’t think it really gives them an advantage to enslave them.

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Cavelcade
Dec 9, 2015

I'm actually a boy!



Invalid Validation posted:

I don’t think the books ever say but is the reason they enslave channelers to begin with because one of the forsaken pushed them into it? I don’t think it really gives them an advantage to enslave them.

One of the channelers brought an a'dam to one of Hawking's kids, who used it to enslave channelers and conquer the continent - and eventually enslave the channeler who gave it to them. That's all we know.

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