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mcmagic posted:Was anyone else sure that when Ellie was back on the farm with Dina and the baby that it was all a dream and she would just like wake up and get killed? That is why i found her leaving again not believable. To love his brother and understand the bond he had with Ellie, then try and shame her into heading back out in the hellworld she escaped just as she found the life she deserved (well, maybe - I had a body count around 200 by then), which he should know that's what Joel would want for her, was ludicrous to me.
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Jun 28, 2020 04:07
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Abby is virtuous because she lifts unlike lazy pothead Dyellie
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Jun 28, 2020 04:52
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Skippy McPants posted:Also, "the last taboo," is a terrible phrasing for a whole mess of reasons. For real, Tom Cruise isn’t even a taboo! e: Endorph posted:saturn games from 1992 
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Jun 28, 2020 05:20
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Gameplay: pretty fun. Some of the setpieces are pretty cool and I wish the big village bit at the end was longer and had more done with it in exchange for some of the duller parts Graphics: very nice Technically: the lack of load screens other than when you die is a nice touch that NaughtyDog has been doing since Jak and Daxter Length: is pretty solid and the various accessibiliy options means that even though it's a single player story driven game, it's still reasonably replayable and you get your money's worth Accessibility: No seriously, not a lot of people talk about the accessibility options but they go beyond what they did for Uncharted 4 and it's pretty amazing, they committed to letting you be able to play the game regardless of reaction times or however poo poo you might be at gaming Story: has some hits and misses. Lots of points seem to be rammed in over and over again because most gamers are dumb, which means that if you have any ability to critically read media you can feel like you're being talked down too. Some of the little character moments are nice. Pacing: the biggest thing dragging the game down, at some point I should've turned on auto-highlighting for collectibles so I wasn't dragging my rear end over every wall Overall: solid 7 to 8 out of 10 game, dunno why people call it bad. Even if you wanna just skip every cutscene you can tweak all the accessibility stuff and run around having a decent time.
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Jun 28, 2020 06:09
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:To love his brother and understand the bond he had with Ellie, then try and shame her into heading back out in the hellworld she escaped just as she found the life she deserved (well, maybe - I had a body count around 200 by then), which he should know that's what Joel would want for her, was ludicrous to me. To be fair, in the interim he suffered a pretty major head trauma, which can gently caress you up not just psychologically but physiologically.
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Jun 28, 2020 13:11
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BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:So you think the themes of this game have no relevance to modern Western society? I don't think I'd say western, I think it just has no relevance in general. But I'm sure the game has more to it than just that one theme (I mean that non-sarcastically).
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Jun 28, 2020 14:42
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BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:In many Australian Aboriginal communities justice has traditionally been executed through a method called "payback" where leaders or elders from the involved groups will agree on a punishment to be exacted upon the perpetrator in order to give the community a sense of closure and prevent unmitigated retaliation. It can often involve violence upon the perpetrator. The practice continues to this day but although there is debate about whether it should be allowed to continue and its clearly at odds with state law. If you want a good example of constant back-and-forth vengeance without any kind of mediatory oversight, look no further than the history of colonialism, where colonists would respond to a perceived crime by the colonized by massive retaliatory violence. See the history of Australian and American settlement. I've not heard Druckmann's podcasts, but if he simply frames these kinds of conflicts as a simple back-and-forth between "equals", rather than an outcome of colonization, it demonstrates a massive blind spot within his psyche as an Israeli-American.
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Jun 28, 2020 14:54
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Phobophilia posted:
Nah he doesn't do this
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Jun 28, 2020 15:02
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:To love his brother and understand the bond he had with Ellie, then try and shame her into heading back out in the hellworld she escaped just as she found the life she deserved (well, maybe - I had a body count around 200 by then), which he should know that's what Joel would want for her, was ludicrous to me. He wants revenge for himself, too. He gets dumped by Maria and is clearly distraught about that: he got shot in the face and can hardly walk. He's still up upset about Joel, of course, but he wants Abby to pay for what she did to him.
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Jun 28, 2020 15:15
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Seedge posted:He wants revenge for himself, too. He gets dumped by Maria and is clearly distraught about that: he got shot in the face and can hardly walk. He's still up upset about Joel, of course, but he wants Abby to pay for what she did to him. Yeah she hosed him up bad lol
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Jun 28, 2020 15:22
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Phobophilia posted:If you want a good example of constant back-and-forth vengeance without any kind of mediatory oversight, look no further than the history of colonialism, where colonists would respond to a perceived crime by the colonized by massive retaliatory violence. See the history of Australian and American settlement. So I think this example actually highlights why this theme annoys me. I don't see stuff like that as a cycle of revenge, I see it as european powers trying to dominate everyone else, with their primary motivation being "because they can." It's not like indigenous peoples turning the other cheek would have solved anything (sometimes they did and it didn't solve anything).
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Jun 28, 2020 15:24
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It’s not a very useful message for this moment in time certainly. It comes across as very “both sides” Doesn’t make it a bad game, but just because people weren’t willing to play other games with lgbtq characters doesn’t make this big budget one the “taboo” breaker (which, yeah what the gently caress is with that phrasing).
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Jun 28, 2020 16:49
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Phylodox posted:To be fair, in the interim he suffered a pretty major head trauma, which can gently caress you up not just psychologically but physiologically. I think I've seen this episode of Every Sitcom.
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Jun 28, 2020 17:01
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Seedge posted:He wants revenge for himself, too. He gets dumped by Maria and is clearly distraught about that: he got shot in the face and can hardly walk. He's still up upset about Joel, of course, but he wants Abby to pay for what she did to him. Yeah like I said he has his motivations, but the disregard for Ellie's well-being is what I find unbelievable. I mean you can basically hand-wave away any of the ridiculous decisions characters make in this game with "PTSD!!", sure. It's extremely arbitrary.
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Jun 28, 2020 18:50
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Phylodox posted:To be fair, in the interim he suffered a pretty major head trauma, which can gently caress you up not just psychologically but physiologically. Yeah that's every character in the game at some point
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Jun 28, 2020 18:52
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:Yeah like I said he has his motivations, but the disregard for Ellie's well-being is what I find unbelievable. He knows Ellie is the only person he can ask to do this. If Tommy goes up to any Jackson patrol person and says "Hey, can you travel across several states to get revenge for me" they ain't gonna do poo poo. He has disregard for Ellie's safety because he doesn't give a hoot about anything but his own pain.
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Jun 28, 2020 19:45
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Tommy "Kazuhira" Miller: Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
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Jun 28, 2020 20:46
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Almost feels like I just played Last of Us 2 and 3 but they didn’t think Abby’s story would play well first so Ellie’s story is wrapped around it.
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Jun 28, 2020 22:31
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ZaronYeras posted:Thinking about this game got me wondering, is there ever even a such thing as a "cycle of revenge" in real life? I feel like almost all the problems of the real world are caused by people making GBS threads on each other for no justifiable reason, not because they just can't let go of the time someone murdered their dad. There's sometimes a cycle of abuse, but even then it very rarely involves getting revenge on perpetrators and is usually more of a string of innocent victims. The closest I can think of is when two people in a relationship hate each other but stay together, and the solution to that is for them to break up. There's that whole hatfields and mccoy family feud.
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Jun 29, 2020 00:17
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:Yeah like I said he has his motivations, but the disregard for Ellie's well-being is what I find unbelievable. Ellie is pretty capable. If I had beef and I was hosed up she'd be who I'd nominate to avenge me.
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Jun 29, 2020 00:38
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JBP posted:Ellie is pretty capable. If I had beef and I was hosed up she'd be who I'd nominate to avenge me. So in this hypothetical, the person you'd designate to be your avenger would be one that would bail out of said vengeance at the last minute, deciding they've grown
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Jun 29, 2020 01:08
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Ham Sandwiches posted:So in this hypothetical, the person you'd designate to be your avenger would be one that would bail out of said vengeance at the last minute, deciding they've grown I don't think she bailed as much as her mate got killed, her uncle got shot in the face and crippled and her pregnant gf was lying in a pool of her own blood. She was good for another try and Tommy wasn't wrong, she did get to Abby. Best option. Unless you mean that Tommy had perfect knowledge of the plot and could see the future or something.
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Jun 29, 2020 01:10
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JBP posted:I don't think she bailed as much as her mate got killed, her uncle got shot in the face and crippled and her pregnant gf was lying in a pool of her own blood. She was good for another try and Tommy wasn't wrong, she did get to Abby. Best option. She gets to Abby and then leaves her alive and goes off on her merry way, it seems like a weird thing to describe this person as a supreme avenger since they didn't even complete the act of vengeance in the game about it.
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Jun 29, 2020 01:15
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Ham Sandwiches posted:She gets to Abby and then leaves her alive and goes off on her merry way, it seems like a weird thing to describe this person as a supreme avenger since they didn't even complete the act of vengeance in the game about it. You mean at the end of the game? How would you know that Abby was going to be an emaciated wreck? If Ellie found Abby at the firefly HQ living free and easy there'd be a hundred dead fireflies and a dead Abby.
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Jun 29, 2020 01:19
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She realised she wasnt seeking vengence but was angry at not reconciling with joel and lashing out its p obvious
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Jun 29, 2020 16:17
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If Ellie was actually interested in killing Abby she would have slit her throat when she was hung up on the pillars. Even if she wants to "torture her like she tortured Joel" she could have done so right then and there, it's all set up for her. Instead she forces a 'fair' one on one. She has a need to feel justified/absolved/superior. At the end she has 'won' and realises that it's not helping at all, which is why she stops.
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Jun 29, 2020 16:51
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My read on why Ellie ultimately stopped short at the end is because she needed to believe forgiveness was possible, even for what Abby did - or, more importantly, for what Joel did at the end of the first game. If she killed Abby in that moment it would have foreclosed on the possibility of forgiveness not just for Abby but for Joel as well. It would be admitting that he was lost to her forever, dead to her even before he was killed.
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Jun 29, 2020 17:15
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Refused posted:My read on why Ellie ultimately stopped short at the end is because she needed to believe forgiveness was possible, even for what Abby did - or, more importantly, for what Joel did at the end of the first game. If she killed Abby in that moment it would have foreclosed on the possibility of forgiveness not just for Abby but for Joel as well. It would be admitting that he was lost to her forever, dead to her even before he was killed. Yea, I share a similar read. Although I don't so much see it as her forgiving Abby, as it's her exclusively forgiving Joel (and Abby is simply wrapped up in that now). The act she forgives him for is the same act that gets him killed by Abby, so for her to kill Abby in vengeance would undermine her own forgiveness of Joel (which in that split second moment is what she realises she needs above all else). I think Ellie is an extremely damaged individual at that point, so I don't buy her decision to spare Abby as containing any altruism*. *Although, this could be me just trying to reconcile her decision to spare Abby with all the damage she's done up to that point. It feels neater for me, at least. Phrakusca fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Jun 29, 2020 |
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Jun 29, 2020 17:24
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As a particularly dark read: Abby living is a link to that last memory of Joel, however painful it may be. Killing her and getting 'closure' would be letting go of him.
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Jun 29, 2020 17:43
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I really don't understand where the meat of the game is supposed to be. Story-wise this is revenge porn with bad pacing and writing, with so much filler it's hilarious. Did they produce the assets before the story and were somehow forced to use all of them? The last 5 to 10 hours felt awkward and out of place in a way that's honestly embarrassing for a big budget game in 2020. Or, I don't know, is Neil Druckmann considered an "auteur" now (think Jim Sterling's pronounciation of auteur please) and he doesn't accept feedback anymore? He certainly was right about Last of Us 2 not being a "fun" game though, good for him I guess. That said it's annoying that so much of the criticism is basically too many women, too much muscle on Abby's arms or too much LGBTQ. I can't stand the alt-right drivel anymore. What also bugs me is that for all the improvements in gameplay I was harshly reminded that I'm still shooting grunts with a joypad at 30 fps. When the story turned to poo poo I tried to enjoy the actiony parts for what they were but man this game's hard to love. Your stealth options are alright but not that different from other games, shooting doesn't feel incredible and the way you collect resources just kills it for me. In all honesty I think the only thing this game really excels at are environments, lighting, and facial animation. Even then, should I suggest a Naughty Dog game to anyone I'd go Uncharted 4 all day every day.
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Jun 29, 2020 18:16
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The pacing is really good
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Jun 29, 2020 19:15
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Kawabata posted:I really don't understand where the meat of the game is supposed to be. Story-wise this is revenge porn with bad pacing and writing, with so much filler it's hilarious. Did they produce the assets before the story and were somehow forced to use all of them? The last 5 to 10 hours felt awkward and out of place in a way that's honestly embarrassing for a big budget game in 2020. Or, I don't know, is Neil Druckmann considered an "auteur" now (think Jim Sterling's pronounciation of auteur please) and he doesn't accept feedback anymore? He certainly was right about Last of Us 2 not being a "fun" game though, good for him I guess. There's an accessibility setting that highlights items for you if that makes it quicker. (it's still going to be boring though)
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Jun 29, 2020 19:24
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Kawabata posted:I really don't understand where the meat of the game is supposed to be. Story-wise this is revenge porn with bad pacing and writing, with so much filler it's hilarious. Did they produce the assets before the story and were somehow forced to use all of them? The last 5 to 10 hours felt awkward and out of place in a way that's honestly embarrassing for a big budget game in 2020. Or, I don't know, is Neil Druckmann considered an "auteur" now (think Jim Sterling's pronounciation of auteur please) and he doesn't accept feedback anymore? He certainly was right about Last of Us 2 not being a "fun" game though, good for him I guess. the shooting was one of the highlights for me i like that the majority of the weapons are low firerate, high damage, the sounds are fantastic and the "next-gen gore" enhances the impact your weapons have it's my favourite stealth-action/rambo type game
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Jun 29, 2020 19:32
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Why does Joel immediately trust Abby/her group btw, it feels like they dumbed him down a lot to use him as a plot device early on. And why in the hell Ellie leaves her scribbled map of all things for Abby to find. The more I think about the story the dumber it looks.
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Jun 29, 2020 20:21
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Kawabata posted:Why does Joel immediately trust Abby/her group btw, it feels like they dumbed him down a lot to use him as a plot device early on. And why in the hell Ellie leaves her scribbled map of all things for Abby to find. don't they meet in the middle of a massive infected attack without much time for chat? and doesn't Ellie get dragged away by Tommy in the middle of a nervous breakdown Maybe you should think about it less and pay attention instead.
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Jun 29, 2020 20:59
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Joel rescuing Abby is one of the few inarguably selfless things the guy has done in either game. Lol Lmao
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Jun 29, 2020 21:05
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Joel seems to also have softened up a bit over the years. Also I imagine Jackson gets a lot of visitors and people who want to join. There are some NPC conversations at the very beginning mentioning they are about to leave Jackson to return to their hometown, but they are going to miss electricity. For all Joel knows Abby could have been someone trying to get Jackson and got caught up in a snow storm/hoard of infected.
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Jun 29, 2020 21:06
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The Unnamed One posted:Joel rescuing Abby is one of the few inarguably selfless things the guy has done in either game. Yeah it's way out of character though. Both him and Tommy are in that scene. Necrothatcher posted:and doesn't Ellie get dragged away by Tommy in the middle of a nervous breakdown Lmao and she left a map on the ground that says "we are here" of all things. And Abby, after suffering countless silly detours in her 10 hours stretch, pulls a Daenerys and instantly zips from there to the theater. Come on now. It's ok to admit the game has a bad story, you don't have to be defensive about it.
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Jun 29, 2020 21:22
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Kawabata posted:Yeah it's way out of character though. Both him and Tommy are in that scene. I'm sorry but the story is real good and even if it wasn't, trying to argue that via cinemasins level criticisms is dumb as gently caress
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Jun 29, 2020 21:40
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Necrothatcher posted:I'm sorry but the story is real good Yeah stopping a story in its climax to force you to play a character you don't care about for 10 hours is usually indicative of solid storytelling. I also loved the "oh but you see dogs aren't bad and you killed them" commentary and Abby's Dances with Wolves bit with the Scars, just groundbreaking stuff right there.
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Jun 29, 2020 21:48
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