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how does all of this hold up against full metal jacket I certainly wouldn't call the Vietnamese humanized in that movie but the Americans hardly look good in that flick while we're on the subject, what did you think of the Ken burns Vietnam war doc. I'm an unapologetic Ken burns fan and although the tone of the doc was definitely exceptionalist as hell i thought it was just really really well edited and the Vietnamese interviews were uniformly spectacular
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Jun 29, 2020 20:12
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Aglet56 posted:how does all of this hold up against full metal jacket I learned a lot but found it pretty exhausting, even consumed over the course of a couple of months; though a lot of that is inherent in the source material. Tonally it felt kind of like Burns having a midlife crisis and buying a motorcycle. I enjoyed last year's Country Music a lot more, that felt like a return to form for him. Speaking of Burns, I saw a clip of him on CNN making a pretty unequivocal condemnation of Confederate generals as national figures and as human beings, which I thought was kind of odd coming from him, since The Civil War's stance on them was pretty... nuanced, sympathetic, balanced, humanizing, bad, whatever you want to call it.
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Jun 29, 2020 20:21
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General Dog posted:Speaking of Burns, I saw a clip of him on CNN making a pretty unequivocal condemnation of Confederate generals as national figures and as human beings, which I thought was kind of odd coming from him, since The Civil War's stance on them was pretty... nuanced, sympathetic, balanced, humanizing, bad, whatever you want to call it. That was mostly Shelby Foote's influence and he's not around to speak kind words about traitorous generals in a whiskey-and-honey tinged voice anymore.
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Jun 29, 2020 20:25
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Also The Civil War was made what almost 30 years ago now so it's possible he may have changed. After reading The Perfect War and Kill Everything That Moves, anything that doesn't fully admit the policy of genocide the US pursued in Vietnam isn't being a honest documentary. Christ even as "fair" as Ken Burns Vietnam was it still would constantly bring up Ho Chi Minh purging Landlords and it still stuck with the narrative that the war was a mistake prosecuted with the best intentions. Christ I couldn't even finish watching it it felt so disingenuous at parts. Which yeah the problem with every American Vietnam war movie is the war it's something that happens to us and the Vietnamese are just there and probably not grateful for the freedom we bring. An echo that you see in Iraq war movies as well. Which The Hurt Locker outs a prime example, it's an "anti- war" movie just because it completely breaks the protagonist as a person and that's it. Even though the movie explicitly tells you, you have to be harsh and mean to the Iraqis because treating them with respect will get you killed. gently caress that movie, can't believe it was nominated for best picture
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Jun 29, 2020 21:03
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Aglet56 posted:how does all of this hold up against full metal jacket It's been a while, but I remember thinking Full Metal Jacket was more of a critical response to the established media invented myth of the Vietnam war and its American combatants, then it was an attempt to contextualize them as war heroes rejected by a nation that couldn't understand their experience because it wasn't as black & white as WW2. System is bad, system broke men, men became beasts that learn to appreciate their animal nature. They're tragic, but in no way heroic. I think that's why everyone talks about the first part being the "good" half; it's has a satisfying arc, black humor, and the characters are still recognizably "us". The second half is where it becomes a bummer, because the Americans are monstrous and the big arc there resolves with joker engaging in the ritualized coup de grace of a teenage girl that allows him to accept what he has been made into and be transformed into something fearless by it. Ultimately though, it still has very little to do with the Vietnamese people and what was done to them; Kubrick was just an extremely pessimistic Silent Generation guy who didn't like any of us, so the tone is a lot different than stuff made by boomers exploring the conflict with a bias toward redemption. He's less charitable to us, but that doesn't mean he's more charitable to them, imo.
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Jun 29, 2020 21:25
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Aglet56 posted:how does all of this hold up against full metal jacket Vietnam: A Television History is the best american made documentary I have ever seen about the war, it is pretty expansive, 13 full hour episodes and has a ton of interviews with north vietnamese and viet kong just a great viewing experience it is so good, a right wing counter-documentary, Television's Vietnam: The Real Story, narrated by charlton heston was made as a rebuttal to the documentary
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Jun 29, 2020 21:34
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General Dog posted:It’s a valid criticism, but at the same time it’s kind of cooked into any war movie with a focus on foot soldiers that the enemy will be something of a scary, faceless other. Even starship troopers shows that their enemy is capable of feeling fear.
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Jun 29, 2020 21:40
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Egg Moron posted:a right wing counter-documentary, Television's Vietnam: The Real Story, narrated by charlton heston was made as a rebuttal to the documentary How was that one?
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Jun 29, 2020 21:45
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General Dog posted:How was that one? really not fair to the vietnamese people imo
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Jun 29, 2020 22:11
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Trabisnikof posted:Even starship troopers shows that their enemy is capable of feeling fear. Doogie's proclamation at the end was clearly bullshit.
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Jun 29, 2020 22:21
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I've been thinking about it and Heaven & Earth by Oliver Stone is the only US made Vietnam War film coming to mind that tells the story from a Vietnamese person's perspective. Doesn't mean it's the only one, but it's the only one I can think of that deals with the people of Vietnam in conflict with themselves and America. I haven't seen it since I was like twelve though, so don't ask me if the messaging is on point.
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Jun 29, 2020 22:55
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Laterite posted:Doogie's proclamation at the end was clearly bullshit. there's that great shot of a wounded bug warrior who's struggling and clearly terrified and ace just machineguns him
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Jun 29, 2020 23:03
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i think war movies are just extremely hard to make in a way that isnt vaguely propagandistic no matter what you do which is why there arent that many of them coming out anymore. even if you structure the entire plot around humanising both sides like the mel gibson iwo jima movie ( or whatever i cant remember) then it can still fall into being weird troop worship
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Jun 30, 2020 01:06
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmQAsyFE-Mc
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Jun 30, 2020 01:38
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General Dog posted:It’s a valid criticism, but at the same time it’s kind of cooked into any war movie with a focus on foot soldiers that the enemy will be something of a scary, faceless other. yeah but its especially jarring in the case of vietnam movies because the faceless mooks getting mowed down are the actual heroes.
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Jun 30, 2020 01:41
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Hollywood is incapable of making a war film that isn't troop worship because they're so intertwined with the US military. https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/hollywood-cia-washington-dc-films-fbi-24-intervening-close-relationship-a7918191.html
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Jun 30, 2020 01:44
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babypolis posted:yeah but its especially jarring in the case of vietnam movies because the faceless mooks getting mowed down are the actual heroes. Well everybody’s the hero of their own story, except maybe child molesters
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Jun 30, 2020 02:03
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The CSPAM appropriate Vietnam documentary is Hearts and Minds
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Jun 30, 2020 02:09
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mysterious frankie posted:I've been thinking about it and Heaven & Earth by Oliver Stone is the only US made Vietnam War film coming to mind that tells the story from a Vietnamese person's perspective. Doesn't mean it's the only one, but it's the only one I can think of that deals with the people of Vietnam in conflict with themselves and America. I haven't seen it since I was like twelve though, so don't ask me if the messaging is on point. I'm also reading the hey Arnold thread in the sci fi forum so I'll direct you to the mr. hyunh episode in hey Arnold
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Jun 30, 2020 02:11
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Aglet56 posted:I'm also reading the hey Arnold thread in the sci fi forum so I'll direct you to the mr. hyunh episode in hey Arnold I am haunted by the history and unknown fate of Stoop Kid.
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Jun 30, 2020 02:17
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StashAugustine posted:its been a while since ive seen it but weirdly the mel gibson oorah vietnam movie devotes a bit of time to the vietnamese; doesn't actually go into why they're fighting but the enemy is at least humanized. probably because the book it's based on was jointly written by the us and nva commanders at the battle if you're talking about "we were soldiers" i remember watching it back in the day and being struck by how much of the vietnamese side of things it showed and actually takes the time to set the war up by talking about how it was a french imperial holding before the revolution, which isn't something i've seen discussed in any other piece of vietnam war media
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Jun 30, 2020 02:36
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General Dog posted:Well everybody’s the hero of their own story, except maybe child molesters 
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Jun 30, 2020 02:41
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I'm enjoying Powerup Comics' new foray into Gamer Dilbert https://twitter.com/ShadowPowerup/status/1277817738531164166?s=20 https://twitter.com/ShadowPowerup/status/1277822917141770240?s=20 https://twitter.com/ShadowPowerup/status/1277827612300230656?s=20
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Jun 30, 2020 05:59
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skooma512 posted:Vietnam went communist and the SE Asia went on to destroy the world. The funny thing is that from the Vietnamese POV the Americans were an action-packed filler arc between the French and the Chinese.
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Jun 30, 2020 06:58
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Atrocious Joe posted:Hollywood is incapable of making a war film that isn't troop worship because they're so intertwined with the US military. Much as I hate J. J. Abrams, he did refuse US military aid for Super 8 to make the american military the villains.
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Jun 30, 2020 15:38
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Atrocious Joe posted:Hollywood is incapable of making a war film that isn't troop worship because they're so intertwined with the US military. Trufant said anti-war movies are impossible since the visual language of movies makes it look cool
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Jun 30, 2020 17:23
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https://twitter.com/JFrankensteiner/status/1278132604584288256
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Jul 1, 2020 03:23
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General Dog posted:Well everybody’s the hero of their own story, except maybe child molesters you underestimate the power of
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Jul 1, 2020 03:50
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Started watching Night Man today, it really sucks so much rear end, I love it https://i.imgur.com/XUYBFip.mp4
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Jul 1, 2020 04:59
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Egg Moron posted:Started watching Night Man today, it really sucks so much rear end, I love it And I assumed Always Sunny made it up wholecloth.
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Jul 1, 2020 13:49
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for your further amusement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jPWGEoyJHY
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Jul 1, 2020 17:42
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mysterious frankie posted:I am haunted by the history and unknown fate of Stoop Kid. Stoop Kid is a spectre that haunting Europe.
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Jul 1, 2020 17:48
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Wraith of J.O.I. posted:for your further amusement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jPWGEoyJHY Tear down the Columbus statue in Chicago and put up a statue of Friedkin.
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Jul 1, 2020 18:13
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Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex has an episode where the incel son of an ambassador tries to make his outdated android the only functional one left so he can pretend it's his girlfriend, only for it to betray him to the authorities and tell him it doesn't love him.
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Jul 2, 2020 02:43
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I'm reading a Tom Clancy novel because I love swimming in absolute trash and I wanted to share a snippet of what's supposed to be a winning Presidential campaign:quote:[Michael] Lawrence could be ruthless, blind, and stubborn. But if nothing else, he had a vision for the country that was bold and intelligent and was just starting to work. For a year prior to announcing his candidacy, Florida Governor Lawrence had met with industry leaders and asked if, in exchange for considerable tax breaks and deferments, they would buy into the privatization of NASA with the government managing all launches and facilities, the companies assuming most costs for personnel and R&D. In effect, Lawrence was proposing to boost the space agency's budget nearly threefold without going through Congress. Moreover, government expenses on space would be cut by two billion dollars, money that Lawrence earmarked for crime fighting and education. He also suggested that one-third of the new blue-collar workforce for NASA be culled from welfare, making for an annual savings of half-a-billion dollars. He never actually says what party he's from, though it's heavily implied that he's a Democrat (which is itself this clever trick that Tom Clancy pulls where all the "good" Presidents are Democrats, even if they always have the politics of a conservative)
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Jul 2, 2020 16:37
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gradenko_2000 posted:(which is itself this clever trick that Tom Clancy pulls where all the "good" Presidents are Democrats, even if they always have the politics of a conservative) Clancy's far from the only one who does that. It's a favorite tactic of the NeoLiberal consensus to portray fictional Democrats pursuing hyper-conservative policies in order to move the Overton Window ever further right. A rather prominent recent example was the Netflix House of Cards adaption which, before the whole thing with Spacey being a pedophile rapist derailed it, was all about a Democrat who pursued such "sensible" and "moderate" positions as abolishing Medicare.
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Jul 2, 2020 18:18
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see also all of the west wing
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Jul 2, 2020 18:41
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So I'm about 45 issues into my Cerebus read and it's a great comic so far. The extended political drama arc about a cynical barbarian aardvark clawing his way into the prime minister position of a city state that started in High Society did not sound like it would work, especially since the comics preceding it worked so well explicitly because they were satires of fantasy novels and comic book trope that only ran 1-5 issues, but it's great. There's no obvious misogyny yet and though the one main female character operating in the comic is a selfish manipulative bastard she's also a career politician and all of them are presented this way, so... you know. Jaka seems poorly rendered so far; she's heartbroken because she's so in love with Cerebus and sees that he could be better but it makes no sense, given that, at this point, they met once prior while he was drugged. I'm sort of thinking her appearances are not literal and are more like his subconscious telling him he's moving further away from the life he needs in pursuit of the things he wants, given we only see her with him when he's alone and brooding. At worst so far Sim comes off as your basic scifi\fantasy writer who doesn't seem particularly interested in writing about women. Even knowing the veer he's going to make further down the line, I have a feeling I'm still gonna end up taken off guard.
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Jul 2, 2020 18:44
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He doesn't lose it for like 100 issues. There's even a proto woke author comment guy who scolds the poo poo out of cerebus about issue 110.
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Jul 2, 2020 21:03
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Reading that Tom Clancy quote makes me feel like the monkey that asks why
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Jul 2, 2020 23:01
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