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second half: poor Abby, finally gets her man and he flips her around and goes in the back
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Jun 30, 2020 01:16
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Here's what I think one of the problems with Abby's reception is: Abby was meant to be most like the "Joel is so dumb for not sacrificing Ellie to sacrifice humanity" crowd, but those people ALSO don't like her bringing justice on her terms, because they think it's bad to kill their protagonist. There's like 2 levels of dissonance there, from people who only look at plot in terms of tactical realism and hype expectation.
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Jun 30, 2020 01:21
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Please keep spoiler tags in use, my friends. Thank you
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Jun 30, 2020 01:23
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I hate-watched a playthrough and ended up not hating it as much. That said, Joel still deserved better than to get whacked with a silly golf club, and I think Ellie's vision of Joel at the end would have been more effective if it included Dina and JJ, her new family. Ellie loved that lil potato. Hell, JJ's partly named after Joel, an homage/continuation of sorts. Also, in my headcanon Dina and JJ moved in with Jesse's parents in Jackson and Ellie joined them there. Dina was probably annoyed but mostly relieved that Ellie survived. She left the tree carving intact! Looks to the Moon fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Jun 30, 2020 |
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Jun 30, 2020 01:23
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Looks to the Moon posted:I hate-watched a playthrough Why would you ever do this? Man, I just do not understand young people.
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Jun 30, 2020 01:25
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Mae posted:Here's what I think one of the problems with Abby's reception is: Abby was meant to be most like the "Joel is so dumb for not sacrificing Ellie to sacrifice humanity" crowd, but those people ALSO don't like her bringing justice on her terms, because they think it's bad to kill their protagonist. There's like 2 levels of dissonance there, from people who only look at plot in terms of tactical realism and hype expectation. There's no dissonance, the reaction to Joel is literally people going through the five stages of grief The structure of this game rules. The first game is good but is super episodic which will make an easy translation for the tv show "here's the Bill chapter, now it's Henry and Sam,the Tommy episode, David etc". What they mess around with here is way more interesting
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Jun 30, 2020 01:26
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BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:What they mess around with here is way more interesting Yeah, it's a big ask, which is kind of one of my favorite things in games, mostly just to see if the devs can deliver in the end. What I loved most was that 2LOU didn't try to out-perform TLOU's cliffhanger, and that many of the most affecting moments were just buried in the structure in unpredictable places.
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Jun 30, 2020 01:33
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when Joel dies, I was initially pretty unhappy with the way he is unceremoniously whacked to death with a golf club. It sort of felt a bit like “oh yeah? You like Joel?! Well, gently caress you!” At the time, but I was enjoying the game so much I gave it the benefit of the doubt and was not disappointed, because devoting a notable chunk of the game to him via the stellar flashback sequences was fantastic. Including things like the museum birthday, and the struggle surrounding the first games ending was so much more powerful than if they had humored everyone by having a playable Joel section (not counting the horse ride) or had him just linger around for half the story while we waited for him to die. we all knew it was coming anyways, I think it was good that they iced him right out of the gate and let him return in better times via memories
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Jun 30, 2020 01:38
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Yeah, this game really leans into the fact that no matter who you are you don't get to dictate how you get to exit the mortal coil, glory be damned. Apparently Joel was originally going to say "Sarah..." in that scene, I am so glad they nixed that.
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Jun 30, 2020 01:47
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Mae posted:Here's what I think one of the problems with Abby's reception is: Abby was meant to be most like the "Joel is so dumb for not sacrificing Ellie to sacrifice humanity" crowd, but those people ALSO don't like her bringing justice on her terms, because they think it's bad to kill their protagonist. There's like 2 levels of dissonance there, from people who only look at plot in terms of tactical realism and hype expectation. IDK I may be off base against what you are writing, so please forgive if I'm only tangentially responding. That said, I don't think it is fair to expect people to come into the game as neutral parties. The players have a history with Ellie, so of course they are going to sympathize with her. Which is why I am so annoyed with how she is depicted as being wholly selfish and reckless. It feels like Ellie was completely neutered (forgive the phrase) in lieu of making a larger point on how the world lacks moral absolutes. My biggest problem is that the game goes too hard in making us not like Ellie. In the final section I actually died during the QTE because I stopped mashing square when Ellie was inserting the knife into Abby's chest. It was clear that the game didn't want me to kill her, and I actually thought that the QTE would fail if I finished her off. Ellie frees Abby yes, but it's kind of pathetic that Ellie even takes that fight. All game we see Abby presented as Ellie's superior in pretty much every measurable aspect, so slashing up an emaciated and humiliated Abby, regardless of how it ends only humiliates Ellie. I'm sure that someone can make the case that this is the point of the entire game, but I think it could be done better.
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Jun 30, 2020 01:47
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I think The Birthday Present is one of the most profoundly emotional pieces of interactive storytelling I've ever played. Like, it took an entire playthrough of TLOU, Left Behind, and 1/3rd of 2LOU to give it proper context...but wow was I ever  ing
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Jun 30, 2020 01:48
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a new study bible! posted:I don't think it's a chud game at all! Sorry to give that impression. I was really responding to the uninformed chud comments that call this game SJW propaganda. It's pretty neoliberal. Speaking of 'brave' choices btw - while it's not as if this game needs another external threat - so much of Seattle is pretty much underwater in this game, is there any reference uncovered which briefly mentions climate change, be it a news clipping, a character just mentioning it offhand, etc? I honestly can't recall one but maybe I missed it.
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Jun 30, 2020 01:48
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Looks to the Moon posted:I hate-watched a playthrough and ended up not hating it as much. That said, Joel still deserved better than to get whacked with a silly golf club, and I think Ellie's vision of Joel at the end would have been more effective if it included Dina and JJ, her new family. Ellie loved that lil potato. Hell, JJ's partly named after Joel, an homage/continuation of sorts. Honestly I gotta disagree pretty hard on that last point. I mentioned this in the spoiler thread, but Ellie’s journal has notes about how she can’t see Joel’s face any more in her mind without seeing it caved in. That brief flash in the last minutes of the game is the first time she’s been able to remember his un-mangled face since he died, and it’s an incredibly powerful moment as a result.
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Jun 30, 2020 01:50
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a new study bible! posted:IDK I may be off base against what you are writing, so please forgive if I'm only tangentially responding. That said, I don't think it is fair to expect people to come into the game as neutral parties. The players have a history with Ellie, so of course they are going to sympathize with her. Which is why I am so annoyed with how she is depicted as being wholly selfish and reckless. It feels like Ellie was completely neutered (forgive the phrase) in lieu of making a larger point on how the world lacks moral absolutes. This is actually quite a good call-back and nod to what Amy Hennig did with Nathan in Uncharted 3, until they pretty much retconned it in the next game.
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Jun 30, 2020 01:51
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a new study bible! posted:My biggest problem is that the game goes too hard in making us not like Ellie. In the final section I actually died during the QTE because I stopped mashing square when Ellie was inserting the knife into Abby's chest. It was clear that the game didn't want me to kill her, and I actually thought that the QTE would fail if I finished her off. Ellie frees Abby yes, but it's kind of pathetic that Ellie even takes that fight. All game we see Abby presented as Ellie's superior in pretty much every measurable aspect, so slashing up an emaciated and humiliated Abby, regardless of how it ends only humiliates Ellie.
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Jun 30, 2020 01:52
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I hope Naughty Dog makes a third game in the series where you play as David, the pedophile from the first game. We can pet the heckin pupperinos that he keeps back at his house and learn that there is no such thing as good or bad in the apocalypse.
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Jun 30, 2020 01:53
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I’m confused because you just said the game was “Both siding” it and now you are unhappy about it being so one sided.
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Jun 30, 2020 01:54
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:Yeah I suppose that's also my problem with it, it doesn't seem particularly well suited to the current political climate. At this point it is what like 2040 or something in game? Based on the brief reductions made during quarantine that were tracked back in March my guess is warming wasn’t the issue so much as all the manmade dams and stuff had fallen apart letting the cost reclaim it.
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Jun 30, 2020 01:54
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a new study bible! posted:It's pretty neoliberal. Perhaps unintentional, but you are completely misusing this term.
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Jun 30, 2020 01:55
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Personally I didn’t feel like the game wanted me to pick a side and I don’t think it tried to play down anyone’s actions as better than the other’s either.
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Jun 30, 2020 01:57
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:Perhaps unintentional, but you are completely misusing this term. Yeah it's just 'liberal'.
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Jun 30, 2020 01:57
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veni veni veni posted:Personally I didn’t feel like the game wanted me to pick a side and I don’t think it tried to play down anyone’s actions as better than the other’s either.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtbkYCLFxYU
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Jun 30, 2020 01:59
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:Yeah I suppose that's also my problem with it, it doesn't seem particularly well suited to the current political climate. Maybe not in the USA, though it seems to be addressing unrest in a more global sense; ie, apartheid, holy war, balkanization, etc. Americans have been able to put up the blinders so far, but when Miami is no longer inhabitable in twenty years we're going to see some major tribal poo poo go down in this country, and major brutality on behalf of the police and feds defending institutions that represent capital (which is already on people's minds in a big way)
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Jun 30, 2020 02:01
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veni veni veni posted:Personally I didn’t feel like the game wanted me to pick a side and I don’t think it tried to play down anyone’s actions as better than the other’s either. I wanted a happy ending for everyone by the end they'd all been through the Drunkman sadness meatgrinder.
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Jun 30, 2020 02:02
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veni veni veni posted:I’m confused because you just said the game was “Both siding” it and now you are unhappy about it being so one sided. It's gratuitously denigrating Ellie (one sided) to make the player sympathize with a war criminal (both sides). BeanpolePeckerwood posted:Perhaps unintentional, but you are completely misusing this term. I don't think I am, but if you want to argue over the definition of a term I am happy to. I don't think it's coincidental that the character who is actually sympathetic also lives in a major city, in a sports stadium (a symbol of capital), kills the underclass for profit, and has a father who is a doctor.
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Jun 30, 2020 02:05
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JBP posted:I wanted a happy ending for everyone by the end they'd all been through the Drunkman sadness meatgrinder. Same 
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Jun 30, 2020 02:05
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Abby is the free market.
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Jun 30, 2020 02:06
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:Maybe not in the USA, though it seems to be addressing unrest in a more global sense; ie, apartheid, holy war, balkanization, etc. Americans have been able to put up the blinders so far, but when Miami is no longer inhabitable in twenty years we're going to see some major tribal poo poo go down in this country, and major brutality on behalf of the police and feds defending institutions that represent capital (which is already on people's minds in a big way) It may 'address' those in the way every apocalyptic/civilization collapse scenarios in film/tv do (and far better imo), but the central tenet of this game in particular - that 'violence is a cycle', which is largely detached from existing power structures, isn't really saying much at all.
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Jun 30, 2020 02:07
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^burtle posted:At this point it is what like 2040 or something in game? Based on the brief reductions made during quarantine that were tracked back in March my guess is warming wasn’t the issue so much as all the manmade dams and stuff had fallen apart letting the cost reclaim it. I mean, warming absolutely is a thing in the game. It's not like warming would stop being a thing just because civil society ends in 2013. You still have a century of industrialization and nearly 5 decades of ice-cap melting petroleum-fueld globalism built up like a giant time-bomb behind the brain plague.
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Jun 30, 2020 02:07
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Dewgy posted:Honestly I gotta disagree pretty hard on that last point. I mentioned this in the spoiler thread, but Ellie’s journal has notes about how she can’t see Joel’s face any more in her mind without seeing it caved in. That brief flash in the last minutes of the game is the first time she’s been able to remember his un-mangled face since he died, and it’s an incredibly powerful moment as a result. That's a good point, I hadn't thought of that. I still maintain that visions of Ellie's new family would make it more effective, since JJ carries Joel's legacy, of sorts. Mostly I just want to see Ellie and Dina and potato be a happy family together.
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Jun 30, 2020 02:08
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a new study bible! posted:It's gratuitously denigrating Ellie (one sided) to make the player sympathize with a war criminal (both sides). Okay. The problem with using a term that defines free-market capitalism for discussing the themes of this game is that in its timeline there is no capital, and there is no market. If you're using the term to talk about political allegory, or what 2LOU's creators are trying to say about 'our world' through the text of this imaginary future...then fine. I do think you should choose, though. BeanpolePeckerwood fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Jun 30, 2020 |
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Jun 30, 2020 02:11
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The WLF is very clearly an allegory for the Ustaša I believe this very strongly because it's something I am personally interested in.
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Jun 30, 2020 02:15
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JBP posted:The WLF is very clearly an allegory for the Ustaša I believe this very strongly because it's something I am personally interested in. LMAO
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Jun 30, 2020 02:15
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:Okay. The problem with using a term that defines free-market capitalism for discussing the themes of this game is that in its timeline there is no capital, and there is no market. If you're using the term to talk about political allegory, or what 2LOU's creator's are trying to say about 'our world' through the text of this imaginary future...then fine. I do think you should choose, though. I dig what you are saying. I have been thinking all day about how to express why I am upset by this game, and part of my specific trouble is that I think there's a meta-commentary to be made regarding the specific decisions that ND made with both characters, where they live, and how they fit into their respective societies. That's why I mentioned that it matters whether ND favors a specific character. This is separate from my story criticism, but also once you get into meta poo poo it all becomes blended. Apologies. JBP posted:The WLF is very clearly an allegory for the Ustaša I believe this very strongly because it's something I am personally interested in. Authorial intent doesn't matter. I'd read your thesis.
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Jun 30, 2020 02:19
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Somebody mock up a poster of a vampiric Ellie looming large over the Seattle skyline with 'there is a spectre haunting the Space Needle' written below it.
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Jun 30, 2020 02:20
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Akapursch posted:I think the valid criticism is more of a meta-commentary on the representation of trans characters in media and the focus of conflict almost always revolving around their "trans-ness", rather than it being just another aspect of their character. I think those complaining are just fed up with this trend, as they wish to be seen as more than just their struggle. This particular criticism is apt because we have in Ellie an LGBT character whose suffering isn't tied to her identity. They've already shown they can do it, in the very same game!
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Jun 30, 2020 02:22
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I legit think that Naughty Dog is trying to make a commentary on the heartland vs coastal elites and the American political divide.
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Jun 30, 2020 02:23
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I also think it's kind of hosed up that Naughty Dog chose to have the slang term for the Seraphites be "scars," considering that Lev is the most significant Seraphite and is trans. I think if you applied a similar treatment to other marginalized groups it would be less accepted. I know that Lev hasn't had any surgeries or whatever, but it seems to walk the line of what is appropriate IMO.
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Jun 30, 2020 02:29
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a new study bible! posted:I also think it's kind of hosed up that Naughty Dog chose to have the slang term for the Seraphites be "scars," considering that Lev is the most significant Seraphite and is trans. I think if you applied a similar treatment to other marginalized groups it would be less accepted. I know that Lev hasn't had any surgeries or whatever, but it seems to walk the line of what is appropriate IMO. They cut up their faces in ritual ceremony. I'd ave called em face choppers
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Jun 30, 2020 02:32
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JBP posted:They cut up their faces in ritual ceremony. Choppers is a cooler term anyway
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Jun 30, 2020 02:33
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