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I saw him as more of a metaphor around religion, Mormonism going entirely by the horde's taste in hair, but opiate of the masses and what CCCB said
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Jul 2, 2020 23:41
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I'm guessing you guys don't know a lot of people from abusive backgrounds and people who do heroin.
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Jul 2, 2020 23:43
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Incelshok Na posted:I'm guessing you guys don't know a lot of people from abusive backgrounds and people who do heroin. Do the writers for She-ra? Like, I see your reading, but did Catra voluntarily do the indoctrination implant thing or was it forced on her? Also it seems a bit easier to resist and defeat than loving heroin.
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Jul 2, 2020 23:46
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He's explicitly based on a cult leader. If you associate that with heroin or find them similar, that's fine. But he's definitely intended to be read as a cult leader more than anything else.
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Jul 2, 2020 23:46
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Incelshok Na posted:I'm guessing you guys don't know a lot of people from abusive backgrounds and people who do heroin. i know plenty of both, there's a reason i have nightmares about my mom finding me. gently caress off
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Jul 2, 2020 23:46
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The evil gatorade baptism wasn't exactly subtle.
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Jul 2, 2020 23:47
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IIRC there was a vague spoiler tweet before S5 aired where Noelle talked about adding a little religious trauma, and then oops a whole lot more happened.
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Jul 3, 2020 01:03
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Noelle has given interviews where she discussed how she grew up in a VERY religious and conservative family and it did a great deal of harm to her, particularly in terms of how long it took her to accept that she was queer. So yeah, the religious trauma comes from a very deep well.
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Jul 3, 2020 01:15
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That's too bad. It makes Catra's arc a lot less sympathetic to me. Having someone stick a needle in you then waking up from a pool of serenity makes sense to me. That also being a terrible idea also makes sense to me. Having it just be Catra going through a Protestant phase is pretty blase.
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Jul 3, 2020 08:05
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Again, I'm pretty sure it was forced; aka brainwashing in the metaphor
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Jul 3, 2020 08:09
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Incelshok Na posted:That's too bad. It makes Catra's arc a lot less sympathetic to me. Having someone stick a needle in you then waking up from a pool of serenity makes sense to me. That also being a terrible idea also makes sense to me. Uh, I mean it was still nonconsensual. Horde Prime didn't persuade her to get baptised in green goo with a well thought out argument. She got forcibly brainwashed and control chipped.
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Jul 3, 2020 08:20
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CuwiKhons posted:Uh, I mean it was still nonconsensual. Horde Prime didn't persuade her to get baptised in green goo with a well thought out argument. She got forcibly brainwashed and control chipped. Which works a lot better for heroin than it does for religion. Especially religion as an adult. If she'd had the same kind of relationship with the Horde as Adora and it just sorta "worked" for her, even if it wasn't perfect then the metaphor of protestantism/religion would work just fine. But she knew the Horde was dumb and evil. She laughed when Adora tried to "reveal" that to her. Religion does brainwash you, but you have to be open to the brainwashing. It doesn't chip control you -- unless she had a protracted adolescence and Horde Prime has been her parents the whole time? I could see a foster child narrative working here -- it feels really grainy to me because of Hordak and Shadow. But Shadow as an abusive foster parent and Horde Prime as a super lovely biological parent who swoops in to gently caress poo poo up is a believable take. Anyway, chip control works way better for addiction since that's what addiction is like. Spinnerella tanking her marriage because of a slip-up and a hidden condition makes way more sense if she's a junkie than if she suddenly "got" religion.
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Jul 3, 2020 08:31
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Incelshok Na posted:Which works a lot better for heroin than it does for religion. Especially religion as an adult. If she'd had the same kind of relationship with the Horde as Adora and it just sorta "worked" for her, even if it wasn't perfect then the metaphor of protestantism/religion would work just fine. But she knew the Horde was dumb and evil. She laughed when Adora tried to "reveal" that to her. You remind me of the guy who went nuts on the circumcision argument on the Silent Hill Wiki, likely due to some personal trauma. We've heard your argument for why you think it's a heroin metaphor. Others have disagreed with it. You don't have to keep insisting your argument is right. Nobody wins that debate.
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Jul 3, 2020 12:03
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Incelshok Na posted:Which works a lot better for heroin than it does for religion. Especially religion as an adult. If she'd had the same kind of relationship with the Horde as Adora and it just sorta "worked" for her, even if it wasn't perfect then the metaphor of protestantism/religion would work just fine. But she knew the Horde was dumb and evil. She laughed when Adora tried to "reveal" that to her. I think you're taking the religion metaphor a little too literally, but as others have said, you can interpret it however you want. Art means whatever you want it to mean. I was just adding the context of what it meant to Noelle.
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Jul 3, 2020 12:12
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Yeah I don't think the show is a 1:1 metaphor for anything as much as it is fiction that contains a lot of deliberate commonalities with certain real-world things. Which is very normal for fiction.
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Jul 3, 2020 13:45
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I mean you can literally ask Noelle about it on twitter but I'm going to guess that she would not put heroin metaphors into a family show.
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Jul 3, 2020 14:14
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I mean, there are plenty of cults out there that recruit nonconsensually. Forced conversion has been a thing for centuries.
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Jul 3, 2020 14:56
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Red Bones posted:Yeah I don't think the show is a 1:1 metaphor for anything as much as it is fiction that contains a lot of deliberate commonalities with certain real-world things. Which is very normal for fiction. Really now, mind control doodads have been a common supervillain tool since before many of us were born.
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Jul 3, 2020 15:23
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Supremely late edit: well it's been a month since i rewatched the show so I think I got some details mixed up. Disregard.
Pyrotoad fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Jul 4, 2020 |
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Jul 3, 2020 16:19
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I don't know how much heroin any of you've done, but I assure you, like 90% of the time you wind up worshiping a guy with an odd number of eyes and prehensile tentacles while chanting in a massive group wearing the same flowing outfits. It's just common sense, really.
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Jul 3, 2020 16:36
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Incelshok Na posted:Religion does brainwash you, but you have to be open to the brainwashing. This is possibly the dumbest thing I've ever seen posted in this thread. You're blaming the victims of cults and horrifically abusive upbringings for being complicit in their own abuse but somehow heroin users are soiled doves who can't help themselves?
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Jul 3, 2020 16:37
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Mr.Pibbleton posted:a guy with an odd number of eyes He has an even number of eyes, actually
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Jul 3, 2020 18:39
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Whiz Palace posted:He has an even number of eyes, actually Clearly you have never been addicted to heroin against your will after teleporting a princess away from danger.
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Jul 4, 2020 21:46
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As we all know there is one and only one correct way of reading media. Incelshok Na, its actually about menstruation anxiety. Just like all other media.
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Jul 4, 2020 21:52
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pentyne posted:This is possibly the dumbest thing I've ever seen posted in this thread. You're blaming the victims of cults and horrifically abusive upbringings for being complicit in their own abuse but somehow heroin users are soiled doves who can't help themselves? If Catra had been really attached to the Horde but hated Shadow and was disappointed by Horkak, the religious element could have been solid. Here is Horde Prime who is everything she ever wanted from the Horde. Surprise! He's horrible. That's a metaphor for religion I'd buy. As it is, I'm just saying it makes Catra's arc much worse for me. She's less compelling. Spinneralla is also way closer to a "bury the gays" this way as opposed to, again, something interesting. Too bad. I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying it is boring and makes the show worse.
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Jul 5, 2020 02:37
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pentyne posted:This is possibly the dumbest thing I've ever seen posted in this thread. You're blaming the victims of cults and horrifically abusive upbringings for being complicit in their own abuse but somehow heroin users are soiled doves who can't help themselves? You are dumb as poo poo. Catra knows the Horde is bad, Horde Prime mocks her for hoping to usurp his position and that's what she wants to do. That's a real thing, but that's not a vulnerable person who joins a cult. Especially if the "cult" is just "Protestantism" which seems to be what it is.
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Jul 5, 2020 02:52
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just tripling down on the Bad Take Olympics, rushing and barreling for the worst poster award. incelshok na, name unfortunately fitting is going... going... gone.
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Jul 5, 2020 02:54
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Incelshok Na posted:If Catra had been really attached to the Horde but hated Shadow and was disappointed by Horkak, the religious element could have been solid. Here is Horde Prime who is everything she ever wanted from the Horde. Surprise! He's horrible. That's a metaphor for religion I'd buy. As it is, I'm just saying it makes Catra's arc much worse for me. She's less compelling. Spinneralla is also way closer to a "bury the gays" this way as opposed to, again, something interesting. Nobody cares. Shut up.
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Jul 5, 2020 03:20
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Elephant Ambush posted:Nobody cares. Shut up. Enjoy your critique of Protestantism that says nothing I guess? Too bad.
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Jul 5, 2020 03:22
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Incelshok Na posted:If Catra had been really attached to the Horde but hated Shadow and was disappointed by Horkak, the religious element could have been solid. Here is Horde Prime who is everything she ever wanted from the Horde. Surprise! He's horrible. That's a metaphor for religion I'd buy. As it is, I'm just saying it makes Catra's arc much worse for me. She's less compelling. Spinneralla is also way closer to a "bury the gays" this way as opposed to, again, something interesting. There's a big difference between "Horde Prime's empire shares many of the trappings, thematic elements, and visual design cues of cults, in a general sense" and "individual characters getting chipped is a specific metaphor for those characters 'finding religion,'" hth.
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Jul 5, 2020 03:29
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Cattail Prophet posted:There's a big difference between "Horde Prime's empire shares many of the trappings, thematic elements, and visual design cues of cults, in a general sense" and "individual characters getting chipped is a specific metaphor for those characters 'finding religion,'" hth. I don't recognize the former and they seem out of touch with the latter. hth.
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Jul 5, 2020 03:33
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Like if She-Ra isn't supposed to be about the characters, that's fine. But that's not how I read it and for a children's show that's also not what I'd expect. My perspective is grounded on the characters. That seems to not be what the writers wanted to create. They wanted to create a broader metaphor where characters don't matter. That's fine too. In that case, I'm a sucker for caring about the characters and I'll admit that. Egg on my face.
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Jul 5, 2020 03:36
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Sorry I can't take anyone seriously when they start throwing out tv tropes terms like "bury your gays" What's next, you start citing scenes as "crowning moment of awesome"? Maybe head back over there? Tumblr might be more your speed although you felt strongly enough about posting on SA you regged while knowing Lowtax still owns it so who knows what your real opinions are.
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Jul 5, 2020 03:51
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People in this very thread were concerned about the "bury your gays" concerning Spinny during the actual run? If you weren't, good for you I guess? They introduced a lesbian couple in S1. Did pretty much nothing with them. Then made one of them evil in the last season which is traditionally a "characters can actually die" free-for-all. Yeah, I was terrified they were going to kill Spinny. Catra too, though for her it would have been a real hosed up "redemption" arc.
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Jul 5, 2020 03:59
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I don't see how the level of danger Spinnerella was in is impacted either way by whether the danger is a metaphor for heroin or not.
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Jul 5, 2020 04:20
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Incelshok Na posted:People in this very thread were concerned about the "bury your gays" concerning Spinny during the actual run? If you weren't, good for you I guess? They introduced a lesbian couple in S1. Did pretty much nothing with them. Then made one of them evil in the last season which is traditionally a "characters can actually die" free-for-all. Buddy you seem to really care about fictional queer people, so here's some advice. Your first post in this thread started off dismissing every other interpretation of something, your second was an insult thrown senselessly that other people itt do not have a lived experience that was the same as you, and every other post a doubling down on same. As someone who's done queer activism paid and unpaid, your behavior would not be tolerated at almost any IRL event. If you are so concerned, please treat actual, irl queers and transes as well as you seem to treat 2D versions. And/or gently caress off.
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Jul 5, 2020 04:23
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CuwiKhons posted:I don't see how the level of danger Spinnerella was in is impacted either way by whether the danger is a metaphor for heroin or not. People hiding an addiction from their spouse and then tragically choosing the addiction over their spouse is something that happens all the time. People hiding religion from their spouse and then tragically choosing religion over their spouse is something that never happens. That's separate from the overall fear of "bury your gays" where there was a real concern that visibly queer people were going to be killed on the show. Thankfully, that didn't happen but, hey, re-read the thread. Plenty of people were concerned about that part of it.
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Jul 5, 2020 04:27
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Thanks for the condescension but I'm well aware that Spinnerella was in danger, my point was that you implied the story being a metaphor for drug usage was somehow less dangerous for her:Incelshok Na posted:Spinneralla is also way closer to a "bury the gays" this way as opposed to, again, something interesting. The implication I get from this is that if Spinnerella had died and it was a metaphor for drug use, that'd be fine to you because overdosing and death is definitely a thing with stories with drug use, but somehow it would have been less acceptable if the story isn't about drug use? Also I cannot overstate enough that you're seriously reading too much into the religious metaphor. Horde Prime is a parallel to a cult leader. That doesn't make hiding a control chip a 1:1 equivalent of hiding religion from a spouse. And if you do want to read that deeply into it then even your drug metaphor falls apart because not one single person other than the clones chose to be under Prime's control. So none of these characters 'chose' drug use and suffered subsequent addiction in your metaphor. It wasn't something they sought out or wanted. CuwiKhons fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Jul 5, 2020 |
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Jul 5, 2020 04:59
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I will admit that cult leaders have little contact with my life. That may be why I don't see "cult leader". Especially if it's just Protestantism. At least make him a snake handler with those wiggly tentacles. But no, Spinny dying because it was heroin would be the same if Spinny died because it was a cult. Spinny tanking her marriage is like addiction and unlike "getting religion". People saying that "bury your gays" is some tumblr poo poo that no one takes seriously as per pentyne posted:Sorry I can't take anyone seriously when they start throwing out tv tropes terms like "bury your gays" What's next, you start citing scenes as "crowning moment of awesome"? In case you have pentyne on ignore I've avoided direct quoting them to avoid any attention it may bring. Edit: Also, we don't know the clones. Who cares? We know Catra. For me she is one of the emotional cores of the show. In terms of character importance you've basically got: Adora>Catra>Anti-Best Friend Squad (let's face it, Scorpia is the best)>Best Friend Squad (great folks but aside from Glimmer's queen arc there isn't a whole lot of meat here)>every other named character (Spinny and Netty end up here)>unnamed characters (like the clones). Like all shows, it works on a heightened realism. Incelshok Na fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Jul 5, 2020 |
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Jul 5, 2020 05:16
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I also want to head off a likely response: saying someone 'choses' drug use is -not- saying its not a disorder, nor is it saying that its a person's own fault. Its merely making a contrast against force. Forced conversion, forced drug use.
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Jul 5, 2020 05:21
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